Should a Felony Conviction Prevent Ownership of Firearms?

[dcloco]

For most the issue in monetary. Lawyers cost money and the courts are not always friendly..

Several states do not require an attorney/lawyer. File the paperwork.

 

[dcloco]

Some of you have pointed out that past criminal activity is a generally good predictor of future criminal behavior, to which I generally agree, and have argued that this is enough to deny them the right to bear arms/self defense. If we are using past criminal activity to predict future criminal activity, how many actions constitute a pattern upon which we deny them the right to bear arms/self defense? In my mind something like say 2 or more violent felonious convictions could reasonably be used to impose a lifetime ban on firearms possession, excluding non violent felonies such as possession of narcotics/vandalism. On the other hand, I see it as a human or God given right which complicates the matter.

If you believe in 2A as a human right/God given right, how does, or does, denying a felon the right to bear arms/self defense based on the harm we believe they will impose upon society or individuals conflict with the idea that the 2A is a human right/God given right? To my mind the Bill of Rights is meant to enshrine/protect the rights of individuals, specifically from the government or government actors. Rights cannot or should not be stripped from an individual except in the most dire of circumstances. The notion that we could deny an individual the right to bear arms or deny them anything considered a human or God given right for any reason doesn't quite sit right with me, but I also understand the reasoning behind it.

The real trouble becomes once we accept the ability to deny an individuals rights based on harm reduction principles, what other rights can strip from people in the name of the public good?
Can we also deny someone their right to speak their mind (1A) because we feel their speech would harm others? I know this is a bit of a slippery slope, and while a slippery slope is sometimes a fallacy, sometimes its not.

2A has a human right/God given right?

It is neither. The United States Constitution defines this.

In most other countries, this is NOT a right by human or God - quite a few countries do not allow ownership or unrealistically toss nearly insurmountable processes to acquire.

Don't confuse the three versions of human/God/country "given" rights.


Until you pass judgement on this issue, go for a ride along, on Friday or Saturday night........your opinion will change.

 

[tomrkba]

No, but not for reasons you think. I assume that returning to a life of crime is common. I do not care. Liberty is dangerous, to paraphrase Jefferson.

The reason is that we have created a “felon” social class. They are prohibited from good jobs and face all sorts of economic and social restrictions. How can it be a right if it can be taken away?

Next is the slippery slope. Look what is happening now. Free speech is under heavy assault and likely will be restricted heavily without a law. Once whatever “rules” become “tradition”, it won’t be long before a law is passed. Then another and another. Don’t forget the taxes and contracts!

Worse, we are now seeing denial of services based upon politics. A man wa skicked off a plane for having “Let’s go Brandon” written in small letters on his mask. First felons, now politics?

If a felon can be walking around free, then they should have all their rights. If they cannot be walking around free, why are they out?

 

[kmw1954]

Several states do not require an attorney/lawyer. File the paperwork.

So exactly what is Several? 5? 10? 2? Still involves going thru a court system.

 

[GAF]

The way the law is today there is no forgiveness practiced. People who commit felonies need to show they deserve forgiveness and there should be a path back to where you came from. Otherwise "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time" and you all know where those words came from.

 

[Atavar]

If the right to bear arms and self defense is a god given right then shouldn’t they be able to carry while IN prison? If you can take the "right" away in there it is just a privilege.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I don't believe in second class citizenship. Once the debt has been paid, my answer is no.

100% agree, after they do their time, there records should be cleared!

 

[Mark_Mark]

If the right to bear arms and self defense is a god given right then shouldn’t they be able to carry while IN prison? If you can take the "right" away in there it is just a privilege.

you don’t have any rights in prison, that apart of the punishment

 

[DeepSouth]

If someone is deemed fit to be released into a free society,

That’s not how prison works. You get out at the end of your sentence, not when “deemed fit”

Frankly, that would likely be a better system than we currently have, but it’s not the world we live in, if it were I’d agree with you.

I don't believe in second class citizenship. Once the debt has been paid, my answer is no.

unfortunately the majority of people released have not paid the debt. Again, it’s not the world we live in, if it were I’d agree with you.

 

[Sistema1927]

I am pretty much a 2nd Amendment absolutist, and believe that anyone who is fit to walk among us should not be barred from exercising all of their God given rights.

That said, the problem with our system is that it allows too many violent persons to walk among us when they should either be locked up or been executed.

 

[SquidBubble]

That’s not how prison works. You get out at the end of your sentence, not when “deemed fit”

Frankly, that would likely be a better system than we currently have, but it’s not the world we live in, if it were I’d agree with you.

I need no pragmatic explanation of how the criminal justice system works. Do the crime, do the time, go home. I get it. The state is entrusted to prescribe a certain amount of time-out from society in order for him/her/it/they to mull over what they've done while in custody, and hopefully lose all anti-social ambitions by the time of release. We all know that's not always the case.

But when someone reaches the end of their sentence and is released back into society, and it's on the assumption that they're not fit to re-enter society because they just can't be trusted, then what are they being released for? What was the point of punishment? Is it just a conveyor belt for new psychopaths while *oops, too bad!* us law abiding folk have to learn how to contend with the old and unreformed psychopaths? They have a hard enough time adjusting when they're truly reformed, and infinitely more so when they're not. The very concept of incarceration becomes self-defeating. That doesn't mean abolishment, it means drastic reforms that America isn't ready for.

My point remains. All rights restored immediately, or the state holds on to them longer.

 

[jmorris]

I think it should prevent you from being a law maker but it’s not…

 

[Atavar]

I am pretty much a 2nd Amendment absolutist, and believe that anyone who is fit to walk among us should not be barred from exercising all of their God given rights.

That said, the problem with our system is that it allows too many violent persons to walk among us when they should either be locked up or been executed.

So you would not have a problem with people getting out of prison, arming themselves and hanging out by your kids school?

 

[Atavar]

I need no pragmatic explanation of how the criminal justice system works. Do the crime, do the time, go home. I get it. The state is entrusted to prescribe a certain amount of time-out from society in order for him/her/it/they to mull over what they've done while in custody, and hopefully lose all anti-social ambitions by the time of release. We all know that's not always the case.

But when someone reaches the end of their sentence and is released back into society, and it's on the assumption that they're not fit to re-enter society because they just can't be trusted, then what are they being released for? What was the point of punishment? Is it just a conveyor belt for new psychopaths while *oops, too bad!* us law abiding folk have to learn how to contend with the old and unreformed psychopaths? They have a hard enough time adjusting when they're truly reformed, and infinitely more so when they're not. The very concept of incarceration becomes self-defeating. That doesn't mean abolishment, it means drastic reforms that America isn't ready for.

My point remains. All rights restored immediately, or the state holds on to them longer.

They are being released on the long road to recovery and rehabilitation so that they can learn to reintegrate themselves in to society over time. Many of those have forgotten how to function in society and are still operating under prison rules and mores. Reintegration takes a lot of time and hard work. It doesn’t just happen because someone unlocked a gate.

 

[herrwalther]

A lot of people haven't dealt with inmates or felons on this thread, and it shows.

I firmly believe felons should be able to get their firearm rights back, after awhile. Reason being, recidivism. Many offenders will offend again, often with the same charges. As I mentioned I booked in an inmate I released when my shift started. That got arrested again the same day he was released. He was still wearing the same clothes he walked out in. I made the process shorter by grabbing the old paperwork. Currently our firearm laws do not let felons purchase firearms when they are out. They don't need to. There are plenty of illegal guns out there for them to get. But barring the purchase of a legal firearm is just one less way they can get one.

 

[dcloco]

They are being released on the long road to recovery and rehabilitation so that they can learn to reintegrate themselves in to society over time. Many of those have forgotten how to function in society and are still operating under prison rules and mores. Reintegration takes a lot of time and hard work. It doesn’t just happen because someone unlocked a gate.

There is no long road to recovery and rehab.

Volunteer at a prerelease or halfway house.....and judge for yourself.

 

[mljdeckard]

Yes.

Here's the thing. I think a felony conviction should carry lifelong consequences. You don't get convicted of a felony by accident. (Yes. Really.) We don't release felons from prisons because they have become safe. We release them because there is not enough room in prisons for everyone who deserves to be there, we don't even have enough room for everyone who needs to be there because they are dangerous. I think if you are a convicted felon, you should not be able to vote, possess a gun, sit on the board of a corporation, be admitted to a bar, or be licensed to practice medicine. For starters.

However comma

I also think that people are redeemable. I think there should be a process to come back. It might be a long and difficult process. I am fine with saying that a felon should have a minimum waiting period of something like ten years of crime-free behavior before they are eligible for expungement. But I will not say that no felon should ever be allowed to become a full member of society again. I ALSO think, that id a felon gors through the expungement process and then offends AGAIN.....ALL PREVIOUS CONVICTIONS ARE REINSTATED.

I have a (ex) brother-in-law who committed a burglary at 18. after several years, his father paid for and facilitated the expungement process for him. After 25 years of marriage and cheating on and divorcing my sister, he assaulted the son of his new wife, and got another felony conviction. (And if the issue were to be pressed, he is also guilty of felony delinquent child support.) He is an example of how people deserve a chance to redeem themselves (otherwise....what's the point,) but SOME will revert to criminal behavior given the opportunity. Rehabilition is possible, but I think the bar needs to be set high. It's not enough to just stay out of trouble like everyone else did. If you got into trouble, you need to go over and above JUST staying out of trouble.

Redemption? Sure. Easy? No.

 

[JohnKSa]

How do I think it should be?

I think a person who commits a premeditated violent felony (I'm defining that as a violent felony that was premeditated or that occurred as a predictable outcome of a premeditated felony) should give up not just their right to ever own a firearm, but also their right to be free to interact with others in society ever again. Such crimes show such an absolute and utter disregard for the other members of society and their rules that they are completely unacceptable. No second chances, nothing less than a true life sentence, no parole, no blather about rehabilitation, no restoration of rights. Upon conviction for a premeditated violent felony, a person should be given the choice to be executed or to spend the rest of their life in prison working to pay for their food, board, medical care and with any extra earnings going to their victims or the family of their victims.

For non-violent felonies, or non-premeditated violent felonies, the penalty should be fines and restitution plus prison time, if appropriate. Upon completion of the full sentence (not just at the time of parole) and full payment of any fines/restitution, a person should have all their rights (except voting rights) restored unless the felony was a violent one involving a weapon in which case the right to own weapons should also be restricted.

Edited for clarification.

 

[Mark_Mark]

So you would not have a problem with people getting out of prison, arming themselves and hanging out by your kids school?

if they wanted to do that, they already can.

 

[DeepSouth]

You don't get convicted of a felony by accident.

to be fair it’s estimated the average American commits about 3 felonies a day.

It’s a felony to cross the border with to many nickels. Ever open your wife’s mail? Waiters and waitresses that didn’t add tips on their taxes. Ever shared a RX with anyone? Let’s not talk about who all bought pirated music or movies back in the day.

Also to be fair, and to your point, our prisons aren’t full of people who opened the wrong mail or gave their wife a migraine pill. They are full of people who committed very serious crimes that got plea bargained down to lesser crimes, and they’ll get out early… and some also want them legally armed.

 

[SmeeAgain]

Several comments made so far about "once a debt is paid" and "non violent crime".
I agree with that to a certain extent. "Some" people make one time, stupid mistakes. Others can't help themselves so they do "life on the installment plan."
Then there are some who can completely turn their life around.
I began a career in law enforcement working at a state prison. Being there 8 hours a day, with keys sucks. I can't imagine living there! So... a person who pays his debt and has proven over time he learned from his mistake, should have the opportunity to get the rest of his life back.
As for the career criminals... absolutely not! It should be a case by case basis.

 

[JohnKSa]

you don’t have any rights in prison, that apart of the punishment

Not true at all.
Among other things, inmates generally have the right to:

• Free food & shelter.
• Free medical care.
• Life & general wellbeing--someone killing or harming you without legal justification will still be prosecuted for committing a crime.
  
• Free clothing & basic hygiene supplies.
• Free literacy programs
• Free reading material
• To not be discriminated against based on the established protected minority definitions

 

[Styx]

For rape, murder, other highly violent felonies, and felonies where a firearm was used, I am okay with the status quo. For everything else, there should not be any stipulations on firearm purchases or voting after all jail time, restitution, probation, and everything else has been paid PERIOD. I do not think people in this thread realize how many nonviolent things people can do nowadays to become a felon vs back in the day. You all think of felons as murders, rapist, and child molesters where I reckon that most felons have been convicted of nonviolent crimes.

Don't pay child support in some states, and you become a life long felon even if you get caught up. Shoplift or steal anything worth over $300 in some states in your late teens early twenties, become a life long felon until the day you die. Lie under oath, and become a life long felon. Don't pay your taxes, and become a life long felon even if you pay it all back. Copyright infringement can land you with a felony conviction. Cheating while gambling at Vegas can get a felony conviction. Multiple DUIs can make you a life long felon no matter how long you been sober. In VA, if there is a child visitation order, and you take your own child out of the state knowingly in violation of that order, you're a life long felon. There are a plethora of other IMHO minor crimes that are on the books around the country that will get you charged with a felony. I do not believe that people should have to lose the right to defense of self and family for the rest of their lives over one nonviolent mistake.

 

[WisBorn]

This question is harder to answer for me than I thought at first.
I changed my answer from depends on the type of crime to yes.
We are a country laws. Break the law and suffer the consequences. When times change the law can change.

 

[stonebuster]

I think it should prevent you from being a law maker but it’s not…

They can't vote but they can hold office. We've had mayors and governors who have been felons here. So we don't trust them with owning a gun but we do trust them with the highest office in state government.