Should I experiment with my .45 Colt?

[Jbird45]

Hey everyone,

So I am looking for some opinions.

I have been loading my .45 Colt cartridges with SNS cast bullets, .452 250 gr LRNFP, 4.8 grains of trailboss, and Winchester primers. I have all starline brass. I am shooting a Ruger new Vaquero with a 5.5" barrel.

I get really good accuracy and low recoil from these loads and I am very happy with them, but I have never tried a different load.

Should I stick to the old saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it!" or should I try different loads? (From the manual of course, no hot rodding here)

Do you guys find a load that works and stick with it or do you do small batches of different bullets and powders see what works and what doesn't?

I hear a lot about unique powder, and VV tin star looks interesting, but I have always been hesitant to stray from my trailboss loads. I've been thinking of trying some semi wadcutters too.

I found some data in my manual for CFE pistol that will push a 250 grain LRNFP over 1000 fps which I was considering trying as well, but should I be concerned about leading the barrel?

I find my trailboss loads are clean and accurate, and I have no leading issues.

I do mostly plinking as someday I want to try a cowboy action match.

What are your thoughts?

 

[GRIZ22]

It depends on what you want to do. Many are always experimenting. Nothing wrong with that. Many of my loads I've been using for over 40 years because they work for me.

 

[Slamfire]

I found some data in my manual for CFE pistol that will push a 250 grain LRNFP over 1000 fps which I was considering trying as well, but should I be concerned about leading the barrel?

That is madness. I don't care what a reloading manual says, I do not believe you can safely fire any 250 grain bullet a 1000 fps in a Colt SAA or replica thereof, without experiencing structural problems. I understand that black powder, is different, if you have balloon head cases and black powder you can reach that velocity, or so I have read. But with smokeless, keep the velocities to 900 fps or less.

I shot tens of thousands of rounds with a 250/255 and 8.5 grains Unique. That gave 850 fps in my USFA Rodeo


If you want to push a 250 bullet to 1000 fps, I believe Ruger is remaking their Redhawk in 45 LC, and I recommend you buy that tank and take it for a drive.

This is worth considering:

Fatique Life of 4140 steel
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150409-Ruger-om-44-convertible&highlight=convertible

Just a few thoughts on this. For Background I am a mechanical engineer with a heavy background in failure and fatigue.

I wonder if I could request a high quality photo of the fracture zone of the cylinder? I am specifically interested in the grain structure of the bolt notches.


I put fort the following.

1) Firearms in general (the type we plebeians can get our mits one) are not designed for infinite fatigue life.

2) The Factors of safety used in firearms design are in line with low end of fatigue requirements (usually less than 10,000 cycles).

3) One of the funny things about fatigue is that each time you push the material past its original design point, you lower its expected life.

4) I am looking at this as an older gun with an unknown number of rounds through it. but based on its age a substantial round count seems likely.

5) When these firearms are designed it is generally preferable for something else to go before the cylinder lets go and takes the top strap. Generally this takes the form of the gun wearing loose or the barrel wearing out. But they are designed to handle X rounds at standard pressures.

6) I see alot of folks calculate the strengths of Rugers, but these calculations are only ever performing an evaluation on a straight static pressure basis. This is wrong when trying to determine if a load is safe.

I attached a couple of marked up figures for your perusal

 

[Jbird45]

Slamfire,

Thanks for the good information. I have not loaded these and sent them through a chronograph so I do not have sufficient data to support the velocities, but according to the manual CFE pistol sent a 250 gr LRNFP at 1073 fps at a pressure of 13,300 CUP. I will heed your warnings and just continue to load lower velocity rounds for safety's sake.

 

[ATLDave]

Max pressure is max pressure, but pressure is only one thing that stresses a gun. Overall recoil - which relates directly to projectile mass and velocity - applies stresses to the gun. These are not the same stresses as those caused by pressure. In a revolver, pressure is the cause of things like catastrophically ruptured cylinders. But that overall recoil does things like stretching the frame. Even if certain propellants allow a given velocity below the max pressure, that doesn't mean that you're not putting a serious load on the frame or the timing of the mechanism. I express no opinion about whether a 250 gr/1000fps round is safe in a SAA, but there's no doubt it will put more wear on the gun, regardless of the pressures generated.

 

[Jbird45]

Max pressure is max pressure, but pressure is only one thing that stresses a gun. Overall recoil - which relates directly to projectile mass and velocity - applies stresses to the gun. These are not the same stresses as those caused by pressure. In a revolver, pressure is the cause of things like catastrophically ruptured cylinders. But that overall recoil does things like stretching the frame. Even if certain propellants allow a given velocity below the max pressure, that doesn't mean that you're not putting a serious load on the frame or the timing of the mechanism. I express no opinion about whether a 250 gr/1000fps round is safe in a SAA, but there's no doubt it will put more wear on the gun, regardless of the pressures generated.

So would it be unwise to purchase ammunition like Buffalo Bore for my gun? They have standard pressure loads in .45 Colt that push a 255 @ 1000 fps. I realize this causes undue stress but I never thought about things like stretching the frame, etc.

I guess if I want extra power I'm just going to tell my wife I need to buy another gun.

 

[ATLDave]

I couldn't tell you whether it's wise, and would defer to others with more SAA expertise than me. I am merely pointing out that there's "no free lunch" when it comes to recoil-driven stresses on guns, at least not without resort to things like compensators/brakes. Newton's laws are all still in effect at firearm scales. Lots of people think that "pressure" is the whole thing. They think "pressure" wears out guns, for instance.

It's nice that modern powders have allowed us to up the external ballistic performance of many cartridges without inducing catastrophic failures (kabooms). That's wonderful. But recoil will shoot guns loose, regardless of pressure.

 

[Hanshi]

If you want serious .45 Colt power, your best bet is to get a Ruger BlackHawk. I have two of of the old 3-screw revolvers, a .4.5" and a 7.5". I shoot only one load and that is 18 grains of 2400 with a 265 grain swc. The short tube gives 1060 fps and the 7.5" gets a whopping 1255 fps from that same load. Don't stress that Colt; 900 fps loads will do anything a revolver could possibly be asked to do. Actually, I topped my SAA load at 850 fps.

 

[Hondo 60]

1/2 the fun of reloading is to try other loads.
Go slow.
Start low & increase by no more than .2 or .3 (tens) of a grain.

That way in the event of another powder shortage,
you've got other data that you know either works or sux.

Our Commander In Chief is doing poorly enuff in the polls that I'll be
shocked if the Dems don't retake the Big House in the 2020 election.
(pleasantly shocked, but shocked none the less.)

But I have enuff ammo made up that I'll be just fine.

 

[Charlie98]

Conversly, I've used Unique in my .45Colt loads almost exclusively for about 25 years, never saw a reason to change. Someone mentioned 8.5grn Unique under a ~250'ish cast bullet... I think that's my basic load. It really depends on what you want... if you are setting on a pile of TB, like I'm setting on about 11# of Unique, I wouldn't get real excited about trying to find something else.... unless, of course, your loads aren't performing to your satisfaction; then, by all means!

 

[Keith G]

I say experiment, it’s at least half the fun/reason for loading your own. I have a Bullseye and TB load that are my go to loads for my SA revolver. But every now and then I’ll try a new powder or load just for fun. I always keep the bullet the same (158 grain coated LSWC for my 357/38 - no reason to mess with a classic).

Be safe and have fun.

 

[Jbird45]

What is your current load not doing that you want to do?

If you are only shooting targets, there would seem to be no reason to change. If you want to hunt or use this revolver defensively, then more oomph is a reasonable objective. But unless you are going out to the back 40 to put Daisy down now that she's not milking anymore (in which case you need monometal solids and 1400 fps at least ;-) then 250 grs at 900 fps is a solid 45 LC load that will do for defensive use. If you intend to hunt cows or other bovines, not.

Even though I think there is more cows in WI than deer, or at least where I live in WI, I don't plan on taking one down anytime soon. I was considering taking my revolver deer hunting with me this year as a side arm. If a deer came in at 25 yards ( which is possible in the WI brush) would 850 fps be enough oomph? 95% of my shooting is target, but what do you guys recommend if I wanted to make a hunting load?

 

[murf]

that buffalo bore load you speak of is within saami specs, according to tim sundles (owner of buffalo bore), and should run in your gun just fine. I suggest you go to the buffalo bore website and read the details of that load.

luck,

murf

 

[Mostly Lead]

I get really good accuracy and low recoil from these loads and I am very happy with them, but I have never tried a different load.

For me, reloading had three goals: lower recoil in .357 loads, reliable cycling in .45 ACP and best accuracy in .38 Special. I tried many powders and loads before arriving at "happy". But I'd have never known what was best (for me) without making comparisons.

As another side note though, you may not always be able to get the components you want. It is nice to dial in a few different loads while choices are plentiful...

 

[mustanger98]

Slamfire,

Thanks for the good information. I have not loaded these and sent them through a chronograph so I do not have sufficient data to support the velocities, but according to the manual CFE pistol sent a 250 gr LRNFP at 1073 fps at a pressure of 13,300 CUP. I will heed your warnings and just continue to load lower velocity rounds for safety's sake.

I haven't read the rest of the comments yet... I'll get to them momentarily.

You said your gun is a RUGER NEW VAQUERO in .45 Colt... good solidly built piece. My opinion is that while you could run a load like you describe, I question why you'd necessarily want to. If the load you use now gives good accuracy, don't discontinue it. I know I've shot some hotter loads that made it hard to control and I don't advise that. I'm not saying don't experiment, but I would advise to go for accurate loads over hotter loads.

 

[35 Whelen]

Hey everyone,

So I am looking for some opinions.

I have been loading my .45 Colt cartridges with SNS cast bullets, .452 250 gr LRNFP, 4.8 grains of trailboss, and Winchester primers. I have all starline brass. I am shooting a Ruger new Vaquero with a 5.5" barrel.

I get really good accuracy and low recoil from these loads and I am very happy with them, but I have never tried a different load.

Should I stick to the old saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it!" or should I try different loads? (From the manual of course, no hot rodding here)

Do you guys find a load that works and stick with it or do you do small batches of different bullets and powders see what works and what doesn't?

I hear a lot about unique powder, and VV tin star looks interesting, but I have always been hesitant to stray from my trailboss loads. I've been thinking of trying some semi wadcutters too.

I found some data in my manual for CFE pistol that will push a 250 grain LRNFP over 1000 fps which I was considering trying as well, but should I be concerned about leading the barrel?

I find my trailboss loads are clean and accurate, and I have no leading issues.

I do mostly plinking as someday I want to try a cowboy action match.

What are your thoughts?

The load you're using with Trail Boss could be duplicated, at a fraction of the cost, with other powders. I use Red Dot and 700-X, pretty much interchangeably, with 6.0 to 6.5 grs of either and a 250 gr cast bullet. Any load in that range has been very accurate for me and pretty much duplicates the "original" 45 Colt load. This is the load I use for general carry and practice.





Probably a bit on the heavy side for CAS and plinking, but definitely a good load.

I really like Unique and Power Pistol for my hunting loads and these days see no need to cram the case with more of a slower burning powder. Last year I worked up a good hunting load that consisted of a 288 gr. cast SWC running a little under 1,000 fps with splendid accuracy.





This load falls in the 20,000 psi category according to Brian Pearce of Handloader magazine, and is fine for USFA's, New Vaquero's and Uberti's.

That is madness. I don't care what a reloading manual says, I do not believe you can safely fire any 250 grain bullet a 1000 fps in a Colt SAA or replica thereof, without experiencing structural problems. I understand that black powder, is different, if you have balloon head cases and black powder you can reach that velocity, or so I have read. But with smokeless, keep the velocities to 900 fps or less.

I shot tens of thousands of rounds with a 250/255 and 8.5 grains Unique. That gave 850 fps in my USFA Rodeo
View attachment 845015

If you want to push a 250 bullet to 1000 fps, I believe Ruger is remaking their Redhawk in 45 LC, and I recommend you buy that tank and take it for a drive.

This is worth considering:

Fatique Life of 4140 steel
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150409-Ruger-om-44-convertible&highlight=convertible

No madness at all. Believe what you wish, but facts are facts. And the fact is that Colt SA's, USFA's, New Vaquero's and Uberti's are all available chambered in 45 ACP whose SAAMI pressure specifications are 23,000 psi for factory +P loads.







Notice that the Uberti, Ruger and USFA (you'll have to take my word on that one) have larger frames and cylinders than the Colt and are therefore stronger.


So if the revolvers in question are designed to withstand 45 ACP loads at 23,000 psi, they'll certainly withstand 45 Colt loads in the same pressure range, and a 250 gr bullet at 1,000 fps, which is quite attainable at 14,000 psi, would be no strain at all.

The heavier load I mentioned above is for hunting only and I only shoot it when I'm getting ready for hunting season. I've shot enough game with .44 Special's and 45 Colt's to know that a 250-265 gr. running < 1,000 fps bullet in either caliber will do for most anything weighing under 250 lbs. or so.

35W

 

[Charlie98]

I really like Unique and Power Pistol for my hunting loads and these days see no need to cram the case with more of a slower burning powder.

After reading an article on .45 Colt loads, I was convinced to try IMR4227 in some heavier loads... but that was pretty much a no-go. In the 5.5" barrel of my Ruger, it was loaded with crap after just a few rounds, and I didn't see much in performance gain, let alone accuracy vs my standard of Unique. Certainly slower powders are a boon in longer pistol barrels, and more so in carbine barrels, but not so much in standard pistols.

 

[GaryL]

Max pressure is max pressure, but pressure is only one thing that stresses a gun. Overall recoil - which relates directly to projectile mass and velocity - applies stresses to the gun. These are not the same stresses as those caused by pressure. In a revolver, pressure is the cause of things like catastrophically ruptured cylinders. But that overall recoil does things like stretching the frame. Even if certain propellants allow a given velocity below the max pressure, that doesn't mean that you're not putting a serious load on the frame or the timing of the mechanism. I express no opinion about whether a 250 gr/1000fps round is safe in a SAA, but there's no doubt it will put more wear on the gun, regardless of the pressures generated.

You make a great point, and that reminds me of something I learned many years ago. The company I was working for at the time asked me to go to a customer to see why they were having an issue with an automation line my company had installed a year before.
If anyone remembers the old touch-tone phones....this machine assembled them

This machine had a station where a robot picked up touch-tone phone keys, and inserted them into the phone key-pad. The robot was on one machine base, the key-pad on another. The robot machine base was quite solid. The key-pad machine base was as well, but the part of the machine that presented the key-pad for keys was attached to an extension that protruded out about a foot. The extension plate was probably 12"-15" wide, 3/4" thick aluminum. So, to understand this, you have a welded steel frame machine base that was something like 4'x8', or 5'x10', which was a typical at the time. Bolted to the frame was a 3/4" thick machined aluminum plate, with the 12" long extension at one end to accept 12 keys. It took 5-10 lbs of force to insert a key. You could easily do it with your thumb or a finger. At the time I showed up, the extension plate had bent down enough that the robot could no longer properly press in the keys. The engineer stuck a straight edge across it - it was clearly bent at an angle. At that point, the machine had assembled over 1 million phones. So 12+ million inserts had bent a solid chunk of metal plate that you could stand on for days without causing it to bend. After that, I learned to watch for metal being deformed by constant activity, and found plenty of examples. Was even able to predict designs that wouldn't work, although it usually took a failure to prove it (many engineers have a tough time believing it's possible a light force can damage heavy metal).

 

[RugerOldArmy]

I shot tens of thousands of rounds with a 250/255 and 8.5 grains Unique

This seems to be an extremely popular .45 Colt load. I use it as well, with 255 Gr LRNFP.

 

[Jbird45]

I haven't read the rest of the comments yet... I'll get to them momentarily.

You said your gun is a RUGER NEW VAQUERO in .45 Colt... good solidly built piece. My opinion is that while you could run a load like you describe, I question why you'd necessarily want to. If the load you use now gives good accuracy, don't discontinue it. I know I've shot some hotter loads that made it hard to control and I don't advise that. I'm not saying don't experiment, but I would advise to go for accurate loads over hotter loads.

Mustanger98,

The reason I was considering these loads is I have read the original .45 Colt loads used 40 grains of black powder and could push a 255 grain over 1000 FPS. I was thinking it would be cool to duplicate that load for the nostalgia factor. It would not be a load I would shoot continuously but thought it would be neat to try.

 

[murf]

that would be out of a 7.5 inch barrel. I wouldn't try to duplicate that velocity with your 5.5 inch shooter.

luck,

murf

 

[Jbird45]

The load you're using with Trail Boss could be duplicated, at a fraction of the cost, with other powders. I use Red Dot and 700-X, pretty much interchangeably, with 6.0 to 6.5 grs of either and a 250 gr cast bullet. Any load in that range has been very accurate for me and pretty much duplicates the "original" 45 Colt load. This is the load I use for general carry and practice.

View attachment 845251

View attachment 845252

Probably a bit on the heavy side for CAS and plinking, but definitely a good load.

I really like Unique and Power Pistol for my hunting loads and these days see no need to cram the case with more of a slower burning powder. Last year I worked up a good hunting load that consisted of a 288 gr. cast SWC running a little under 1,000 fps with splendid accuracy.

View attachment 845253

View attachment 845254

This load falls in the 20,000 psi category according to Brian Pearce of Handloader magazine, and is fine for USFA's, New Vaquero's and Uberti's.



No madness at all. Believe what you wish, but facts are facts. And the fact is that Colt SA's, USFA's, New Vaquero's and Uberti's are all available chambered in 45 ACP whose SAAMI pressure specifications are 23,000 psi for factory +P loads.

View attachment 845255

View attachment 845256

View attachment 845257

Notice that the Uberti, Ruger and USFA (you'll have to take my word on that one) have larger frames and cylinders than the Colt and are therefore stronger.


So if the revolvers in question are designed to withstand 45 ACP loads at 23,000 psi, they'll certainly withstand 45 Colt loads in the same pressure range, and a 250 gr bullet at 1,000 fps, which is quite attainable at 14,000 psi, would be no strain at all.

The heavier load I mentioned above is for hunting only and I only shoot it when I'm getting ready for hunting season. I've shot enough game with .44 Special's and 45 Colt's to know that a 250-265 gr. running < 1,000 fps bullet in either caliber will do for most anything weighing under 250 lbs. or so.

35W

35W,

Thank you for taking the time to provide all this info and pictures. I think I am going to try that load with the red dot.

While I believe you because of the pictures and research you have provided, I don't think I am personally comfortable pushing my gun past the SAMMI specs. Obviously the Rugers do have a bigger cylinder than the Colt. That just means the Ruger should last even longer with low pressure loads!

Again, thanks for all the info.

Jbird

 

[gunlaw]

Conversly, I've used Unique in my .45Colt loads almost exclusively for about 25 years, never saw a reason to change. Someone mentioned 8.5grn Unique under a ~250'ish cast bullet... I think that's my basic load. It really depends on what you want... if you are setting on a pile of TB, like I'm setting on about 11# of Unique, I wouldn't get real excited about trying to find something else.... unless, of course, your loads aren't performing to your satisfaction; then, by all means!

I agree Charlie. Unique was developed early in the smokeless powder era and was probably used for the early smokeless 45 loads. Goes with an SAA like peas and carrots

 

[Slamfire]

I agree Charlie. Unique was developed early in the smokeless powder era and was probably used for the early smokeless 45 loads. Goes with an SAA like peas and carrots

Per Wiki Bullseye was created in1899 by Laflin and Rand and Unique in 1900. This is an interesting read on the pre Hercules Company, that is Laflin and Land, who were the original maker of Bullseye and Unique: The Smokeless Powders of Laflin and Rand

Based on the little research I have done, Bullseye was the earliest smokeless pistol powder and Unique came out one year later. I do not know what other smokeless makers were on the market, but these powders have to be the earliest introduced on the market, and have shown their versatility by staying around, when all the comparable powders of the era, are no longer on the market. Lesmoke would have been a good one to keep around. It could be loaded in any blackpowder cartridge.

As I looked for dates, I found this interesting big badda boom"

LAFLIN & RAND POWDER MILL EXPLOSION 1907

HISTORICAL SKETCH On the morning of 15 October 1907 a series of explosions at the Laflin & Rand powder mill blasted the small mining town of Fontanet in the Nevins Township of Vigo County. The mill, which was owned by the DuPont Powder Company, produced blasting powder for use in the area's coal mines. Twenty-seven people were killed, hundreds were injured, and nearly all the homes in the area were damaged or destroyed. It was the deadliest explosion in Vigo County history. The first explosion occurred at 9:08 that Tuesday morning in the glazing mill. The powder mill office, where superintendent Arthur Brown Monahan Jr. was meeting with T.T. Kellum, a DuPont representative from Wilmington, Delaware, was engulfed in flames, killing the two men. A huge tree was uprooted and landed on Monahan's house, killing his wife and niece. Monahan had feared a major explosion and had recently purchased a life insurance policy. He was also in the process of making arrangements to engage in other work. He recognized the danger at the powder plant, especially in dry weather, when there was increased danger of fire or an explosion from friction. It is believed that the initial blast was triggered by a spark from an overheated unit. Thirty minutes later, there was a larger blast in the press mill. Of the mill's 150 employees, only 53 were working that morning; 22 were killed. This second explosion demolished businesses, churches, and homes, uprooted trees, and ignited fires. Then at least 31,000 kegs of dynamite detonated. In addition to the almost total destruction of Fontanet, two miles away the community of Coal Bluff saw several residences and a school detached from their foundations. Windows were broken in Terre Haute, Brazil, Carbon, Rockville, and Bridgeton. In Bloomington, a recitation was interrupted at the university when the building in which it was being held moved, leaving cracked walls and startling those present. Seismic instruments 215 miles away in St. Mary's, Ohio, recorded the explosion and shock waves were felt as far away as Seymour, Indianapolis, and Cincinnati

Anyway, you can bet the earliest smokeless 45 LC cartridges were loaded with Unique, and this powder today is still a staple in the 45 Long Colt. And as others have noted in this thread, these Colt SAA replicas are not built for long term shooting of hot loads. While today's pistols are made out of better materials, you have a pistol that is lightweight and will be beat up by pushing maximum loads. I have shot well over ten thousand rounds of my 45 LC Colt loads of a 250/255 with 8.5 grains Unique and they are all still within time and forcing cone erosion is acceptable.

I had a FIE Hombre in 44 Magnum. This was a Colt SAA replica, "updated lockworks" mine had a 5.5 inch barrel. Shooting full power 44 Magnums was hell. The recoil was punishing, the small trigger guard and grip space hurt my hand and fingers. And parts broke. Specially I remember the transfer bar broke and I have no idea why, other than it was some spindly thing. Maybe it was built for 44 Magnum pressures, but after fixing the loose things and the broken transfer bar, I got rid of it. I may have shot 200 rounds, of which, less than 50 were full power magnums. I had no confidence that the rest of the pistol would hold up to the pressures and recoil of a magnum, I could not get the thing to shoot to point of aim with 44 Special level loads, and it was just too painful to shoot with full power magnum loads.

Over the years I found lots of threads of S&W M29 owners whose pistols shot themselves out with magnum loads. This is a typical one:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/530103904/m/1651007542

Alright, then, just a few additional points:

First, I guess phils and I are the only persons on board with such dreadful luck. (Or is that just a balanced view of the real limits inherent in the M29/629?)

Personally, I don't hand-load, shoot silhouette, or fire any but standard-pressure, 240-grain factory ammunition in my 44 Magnum revolvers. This includes my Freedom Arms Model 83 and my S&Ws.

My "newest" S&W 44 Magnum is a M629-3; It shot loose in less than 3000 rounds fired. Again, I suppose YMMV (it certainly appears everyone else's does). In stark contrast, my Freedom Arms Model 83 is as tight as the day it was made (which is much tighter than any S&W revolver ever manufactured), and I've fired it many more thousands of rounds.

Evidently, the term "tight" is subjective here. Funny, I always thought it meant the parts don't move perceptibly unless they are supposed to. IMO, any amount of cylinder endshake or sideplay is unacceptable (but I have to admit it's possible I'm just spoiled).

It's of little or no consequence, but in terms of engineering changes, [M29-4 ≠ M629-4]. Instead, [M29-4 = M629-2]. This is simply a fact, one that can be easily verified by consulting any number of references.

The principal effect of the so-called "endurance package" applied to the M29/629 is that it virtually eliminates spontaneous opening of the cylinder upon firing (standard-pressure 44 Magnum ammunition). In the interest of fairness (part and parcel of any balanced, unbiased review) such conveniences must of course be acknowledged.

Unfortunately, however, back-rotation can and still does occur given a too-weak cylinder stop spring, which feature is not exactly rare in S&W revolvers.

In addition, the central locking assembly of the M29/629 was not improved or in any way strengthened as part of the "package". Neither was the cylinder stop. A particularly weak part in the former is the center pin, the end of which tends to become battered through normal use (there's that standard-pressure 44 Magnum ammunition again). Once battered, the end of the pin mushrooms, which in turn causes some difficulty (excess friction) when deliberately opening the cylinder. In an extreme case, the mushroomed center pin can freeze within the assembly, effectively preventing opening (or closing) of the cylinder.

Returning to the bright side, a secondary positive effect of the endurance package is to minimize breakage of the hammer and trigger studs in the frame. This portion of the overall "upgrade" is referred to as the "radius stud package". Unfortunately, however, the studs remain relatively prone to breakage (relative to modern designs such as the Ruger Redhawk, the Dan Wesson 44, and the Freedom Arms Model 83).

Still another breakage-prone part in the S&W locking assembly is the bolt. A simple visual inspection of this part (or even a drawing of it) is sufficient to reveal why this is the case.

Now, a M29/629 can be made as tight as any other revolver, but the inherent weakness of the basic design ensures that it will not stay that way very long under normal use (yes, that means firing standard-pressure 44 Magnum ammunition). Worse still is that such normal use can produce broken parts in similarly short order.

If this were not the case, how exactly would one account for the competing designs? Was there no impetus whatever for making them stronger than the M29/629?

Keep in mind while considering those questions that the Ruger Redhawk was designed and appeared on scene before the heyday of silhouette shooting. In addition, having done a bit of that myself in the deep, dark past, I can assure you that competing in that sport does not require the use of overloaded ammunition in any caliber.

How I do so wish such urban legends were not so popular...but I digress.

The widely acknowledged 'father' of the 44 Magnum, the late Elmer Keith, reported that he shot a mere 600 rounds during the first year he had the gun. In addition, his favored reload for the caliber developed less pressure than the current SAAMI limit for the cartridge. (Anyone who doubts this should do some homework before claiming otherwise.) The point being, maybe he was onto something (in both respects)???

Lastly, anyone who has never owned and fed one would do well to read John Taffin's sixgun.com article on the S&W 44 Magnum before taking the plunge. No one can deny that Mr. Taffin likes the gun as much as anyone. Moreover, he too is aware of its limits - and he respects them.

Cheers,
BlrdNo3F

Now if a modern S&W pistol will shoot itself out of time in 3000 rounds, admittedly with a much higher pressure cartridge, and this pistol has the same basic mechanicals of an original dating from 1900, well then, is souping up a lightweight Colt SAA replica all that smart? Ruger made the New Vaquero lighter than the old Vaquero, to please the Cowboy action crowd. I had an old model Vaquero and I have no doubt it is stronger and stouter than any Colt SAA replica. But even then, attempts to magnitize the thing resulted in uncomfortable recoil.

I have this Ruger New Model in 44 Special



and pushing a 240 grain lead bullet to 1000 fps, with 7.5 grains Unique, is all the recoil I want. I have faith that this heavy frame pistol will not be damaged by this load.

But I had to cut my loads, down from 6.5 grains Unique, to less, with a 240, with this USFA



as the recoil upset the end of the cylinder pin! I have no idea, but these lightweight revolvers should be shot with low pressure loads.

Now will one of those New Vaquero Rugers be damaged with 20 or so rounds?: probably not. But I would like to read from those pushing the pressure envelope to tell us the condition of their pistols after thousands of rounds. Specially, how many high pressure rounds have they put their their pistols and what is the mechanical condition of them?.

There will always be those who wanted their six cylinder Chevy to move as fast as the V-8, and the end result was always, a new V-8 engine to replace the leaking/blown six cylinder.

 

[mustanger98]

Mustanger98,

The reason I was considering these loads is I have read the original .45 Colt loads used 40 grains of black powder and could push a 255 grain over 1000 FPS. I was thinking it would be cool to duplicate that load for the nostalgia factor. It would not be a load I would shoot continuously but thought it would be neat to try.

Okay, now while velocities might be duplicated, BP and the various smokeless powders act differently. BP explodes while smokeless burns... different pressure curves. This might be worth looking into to see what testing showed in the 1870's vs early 1900's transition to smokeless.

While the original .45 Colt was like that, IIRC, they backed the charge down to 30grs real soon. I'm thinking the 30gr BP load was mechanically more accurate and more controllable.

Also, this...

that would be out of a 7.5 inch barrel. I wouldn't try to duplicate that velocity with your 5.5 inch shooter.

luck,

murf

1st Gen. Colt SAA's could be had with barrels 7.5" (cavalry), 5.5" (artillery), and 4.75", among other variants, but the ammo seems to be mostly one or two versions with 250gr lead being the main offering. Murf's right... the load designed to give 1000fps in the Cavalry Model will be a little slower in a shorter barrel.