Should S&W reintroduce the Schofield/Model 3 ?

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Man that is slow. :p I made some special speed loaders for my Ruger Blackhawk convertible, think a tube full of 6-rounds with a pusher similar to the speed loader from some 3-gun shotguns but smaller. I could do a reload in about 10-12 seconds with the 9mm cylinder installed. It was far from fumble proof. :D

I can pretty routinely hit sub 3-second reloads with my moonclip fed revolvers. If it a stand and shoot reload I can occasionally get under 2-seconds.


Good for you. The point of me seeing how fast I could reload a Colt was because somebody on the web thought it would take forever. So I timed myself. I put five empties in the cylinder and lay five dummies with bullets on the dining room table. It took me about 30 seconds to pop out all the empties, then pop in five fresh rounds, bring the hammer to full cock and let it down on an empty chamber. I just wanted to see how long it would take me, and I was surprised it only took about half a minute. I made a video, and it is probably on my hard drive somewhere, but I don't know how to load a video onto this site.

Frankly, I have no need to reload a revolver faster than that. I only shoot a SAA in Cowboy Action, and we have not had a reload on the clock in years. I load at the loading table like everybody else, then after shooting the stage I go to the unoloading table to dump out the empties and show clear. Two revolvers, a rifle and a shotgun.

I really don't have any need to load any faster than that.


P.S. I found the video on my hard drive. My best effort was about 19 seconds. The video is 21 seconds long, I don't pick up the gun until a couple of seconds into the video.
 
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When I was a little kid, I saw many top break revolvers that would "jump open," or partially open when fired. The two studs on the frame, where the latch locks, had become rounded somewhat, probably from closing the revolver. This rounded surface left the latch "latching" onto very little metal. I hasten to add that these were Iver Johnson or Harrington & Richardson revolvers, and mostly .38 S&W caliber.

Many times these were given to me as useless guns. But the service station at the end of the next street would add weld metal to these posts, and I dressed that down with a file and the gun performed as it should for awhile longer.

One of the weaknesses of the Top Break.


Bob Wright
 
Howdy Again

I am under no illusions that Smith & Wesson will have any plans to reintroduce the Schofield Model. I'm sure their current business making plastic guns and other semi-automatics keeps them very busy.

However, I will make a few more comments.

As I said before, when they produced them in 2000-2002, every unit produced sold.

Yes, they were a niche gun, clearly they did not appeal to many, probably most, shooters.

A couple of other points. Smith and Wesson never throws out anything. They are famous for using up old parts in new guns, using old boxes for newer models, etc. I am sure the specific jigs and fixtures used to make the Schofields in 2000 - 2002 still exist. So if they were to decide to reissue it, I doubt much retooling would be necessary.

A few years ago I had the privilege of touring the S&W factory on Roosevelt Avenue in Springfield Mass. It is HUGE. Built around 1950, if memory serves, it replaced the older plant in downtown Springfield. One of the things I noticed is there is a great deal of space not being used. Lot's of old machinery standing in huge rooms that had nobody working in them. So if space was needed to start up a line to make Schofields again, there is plenty of room. At least there was when I visited.

Regarding Top Breaks not being profitable, and perhaps that is why they stopped making them: I doubt it. Daniel Wesson, who did not die until 1906, was a typical, flinty, thrifty New Englander. I doubt he would have kept anything in production that did not show a profit. I suspect the reason the Top Breaks stopped being produced was after the development of the Hand Ejectors (revolvers with side swinging cylinders), which were first produced in 1896, the Top Breaks simply became obsolete. Even though the Top Breaks featured automatic ejection, a Hand Ejector can be emptied just as fast. Yes, I have tried. And a Hand Ejector can be reloaded just as fast as a Top Break. As previously stated, a solid frame revolver was simply stronger than a Top Break, so I suspect once the Hand Ejectors became available, sales for Top Breaks slowed. All large frame #3 Top Break frames had been produced before 1899 (which is why they are all considered antiques by the BATF). New Model Number Threes were still cataloged until 1908, and 44 Double Actions were still cataloged until 1913, as stocks of parts were used up. I suspect sales simply slowed over that period because shooters wanted to buy the newer designs. Just like often happens today.

The very last Top Break revolver that S&W designed and marketed was the 38 Double Action Perfected Model, which was manufactured from 1909 until 1920, well into the Hand Ejector era. All told, 59,400 Perfecteds were made, so somebody was still buying them. This was the unusual Top Break that featured a thumb release as well as a top latch. In order to open the gun for unloading and unloading, one has to operate the thumb piece and top latch simultaneously, or the gun does not break open.

View attachment 801333




I used to know a young engineer who worked at S&W, and if memory serves, he was the inspiration for reintroducing the Schofield Model in 2000. As I recall, the official S&W historian, Roy Jinks, loaned the company one of his Schofields to measure so the company could tool up to make the new ones. If I can manage to contact him, I will see what I can learn about how many of the Schofield Model of 2000 were made, and whether or not the company made a profit on them. If he can speak freely about such proprietary information.

If I manage to contact him, I will post what I can about what he says.
I would very much like to here what this once "young" engineer has to say! Are the manufacturing piece parts still available to fire up the production line?
 
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Good for you. The point of me seeing how fast I could reload a Colt was because somebody on the web thought it would take forever. So I timed myself. I put five empties in the cylinder and lay five dummies with bullets on the dining room table. It took me about 30 seconds to pop out all the empties, then pop in five fresh rounds, bring the hammer to full cock and let it down on an empty chamber. I just wanted to see how long it would take me, and I was surprised it only took about half a minute. I made a video, and it is probably on my hard drive somewhere, but I don't know how to load a video onto this site.

Frankly, I have no need to reload a revolver faster than that. I only shoot a SAA in Cowboy Action, and we have not had a reload on the clock in years. I load at the loading table like everybody else, then after shooting the stage I go to the unoloading table to dump out the empties and show clear. Two revolvers, a rifle and a shotgun.

I really don't have any need to load any faster than that.


P.S. I found the video on my hard drive. My best effort was about 19 seconds. The video is 21 seconds long, I don't pick up the gun until a couple of seconds into the video.

Reloading on the clock is one of the biggest reason I got into USPSA and IDPA competition. Those two sports where the first shooting sports I had encountered where your reloads (and basically all weapon manipulation during the course of fire) directly effected your score. After getting into the sport I realized the way to maximize my reloading was to shoot in the lowest capacity division and thus my plunge into USPSA and IDPA revolver divisions. It is also one of the reasons I have never tried SASS.
 
mcb, we're used to seeing guys finish 32-round field courses in a lot less than 30 seconds! It's amazing what USPSA does to your perception of what is or is not fast in handgun shooting.
 
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mcb, we're used to seeing guys finish 32-round field courses in a lot less than 30 seconds! It's amazing what USPSA does to your perception of what is or is not fast in handgun shooting.
Yes, my generic bench mark for a USPSA field stage with a revolver is if I manage to get my time in seconds less than the number of rounds fired I have probably done at least OK on the stage.

A double action top break gun would be fun to try in USPSA. Somewhere I had a video or a guy shooting USPSA with a Webley Mark VI and moonclips. It looked fun. I was going to shoot some IDPA with my Mark IV and speedloaders (K-frame Comp IIIs work) but they changed to rules to revolver division barrel length down to only 4.2 inches and it is a five inch gun and 38/200 (38S&W) is not a legal IDPA cartridge, despite being "larger" that 38 Special, but that is an argument for a whole different thread...
 
Looks like Baikal made this modern vaporware. Looks like a polymer frame though. Did the Ruskies come up with some new technology that eliminated the known top-break issues or were they ok with its limitations? They must have done something for it to be able to handle 357 though.
baikal.jpg
 
Thanks for your comment and picture, fireman9731. I was just about to make a post to Yujun, doubting that that 357 top break ever actually existed, but you saved me from calling a right man wrong!

Still, as much as I like top breaks, I would let him shoot it first, at least with full-house 357 loads.
 
Don't forget about the Anderson Wheeler Mark VII

View attachment 801497

Its basically a Webley Mark VI but as a 7-shot 357 Magnum.

http://andersonwheeler.co.uk/the-gun-room/revolver/

I could buy a servicable used truck for the cost though ~$10,000 e USD
That looks to be a spectacular piece of workmanship. And a counter example to the claim that the topbreak design is inherently incapable of tolerating the forces that come with magnum loads.

This is the historical piece the Wheeler is based on, the Webley.
 
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In the handgun world, there are few design deficiencies that can't be overcome by throwing ten grand at them.

You see a lot of those upgraded Webleys selling here?
The Mark VI Webley I had in .455 wasn't even strong enough to recommend regular .45 ACP use in.
Denis
 
I think if you could generate today's tactical Tupperware type volume of sales the costs of using the newer materials and any design changes needed to make a Webley style magnum top break revolver would come down five fold. Unfortunately revolvers in general will likely never draw those sales numbers again let alone a top break revolver that is seen as a weaker design.
 
The stipulation has always been, "at a price people are willing to pay".

No, popularity ain't gonna make it much cheaper to make. Some designs exist simply because they're easier to make. Others do not because they are not easy to make.


Craig,
If you can fire five, punch five empties out, load five, and fire five, through a standard single-action, all in 15 seconds, you are truly a far greater man than I. :)

Video, please. :)
I need to see how that's done.

Saw a video of Thell Reed empty & reload once.
But he's Thell Reed. :D
Denis
Well, I ain't no Thell Reed. That's a best case when everything goes right and I've been doing it every day but I under those circumstances I would easily average 20secs or better. I hear folks all the time say that shooting a single action is their time to slow down and relax. I never did that. I decided long ago that I wanted to be 'good' with a single action and every time I reload one, I'm on the clock. Comparing SA's and DA's, I've explained many times that with the DA, cartridges must be deliberately inserted into each chamber. With an SA, all you have to do is drop them into the loading port and let gravity do the rest. Time this right while rotating the cylinder with the opposite thumb and you'll load the SA much faster than a DA. I think the issue with most folks is that they have accepted that loading a single action is slow and they never tried to do it any other way.
 
Well, I ain't no Thell Reed. That's a best case when everything goes right and I've been doing it every day but I under those circumstances I would easily average 20secs or better. I hear folks all the time say that shooting a single action is their time to slow down and relax. I never did that. I decided long ago that I wanted to be 'good' with a single action and every time I reload one, I'm on the clock. Comparing SA's and DA's, I've explained many times that with the DA, cartridges must be deliberately inserted into each chamber. With an SA, all you have to do is drop them into the loading port and let gravity do the rest. Time this right while rotating the cylinder with the opposite thumb and you'll load the SA much faster than a DA. I think the issue with most folks is that they have accepted that loading a single action is slow and they never tried to do it any other way.

Of course anyone who is remotely interested in loading a swing-out-cylinder revolver fast is going to use a speedloader, or even moonclips. And might have the chambers chamferred to get the same kind of funneling action you're talking about for SA. Much respect for your SA unloading/loading skills, but in a reloading contest against someone with a proper set of DA gear, you're bringing a (very classy) bicycle to a motorcycle race.
 
I have always stipulated that the only time a DA is faster to reload is with moon clips or speedloaders. I've mentioned this several times in this thread, starting with my first post #18. Never said or implied anything different. Of course, the context of this discussion is not competitive shooting either. I'm pretty sure that the average shooter is not doing all their DA reloads with moon clips and speedloaders. Which opens another can of worms because those moon clips and speedloaders do not load themselves.
 
That's why remarks were limited to "anyone who is remotely interested in loading a swing-out-cylinder revolver fast." People who aren't interested in that... aren't interested in that. And won't generally be fast. Very few people walking down the sidewalk to lunch are going to accidentally run at a dead sprint!
 
Did somebody say SAA reloads?!

On my first attempt I did most reloads in about 24 seconds, give or take (from last shot bang to next shot).
start at 1:06:


Then I made these:


With practice I I think I could get the non tube reload to under 20.
 
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Did somebody say SAA reloads?!

On my first attempt I did most reloads in about 24 seconds, give or take (from last shot bang to next shot).
start at 1:06:


Then I made these:


With practice I I think I could get the non tube reload to under 20.


I like the tube fed reload. I did similar with my Ruger Blackhawk convertable. On my tubes I use a tube slightly smaller in diameter than the 9mm rounds and split the tube. This created tension to retained the rounds. I then made a follower with a handle that stuck out through the split. Made it a bit less fumble prone and allowed me to push the rounds into the chambers with the same hand holding the tube while my other hand held the gun and rotated the cylinder. Unfortunately they were not very durable and got thrown away in a recent move.

Now I am no Jerry Miculek but I do OK with the old S&W N-frame. The video below from a recent dry fire practice.



Timer was set to a par time of 3.6 seconds. Draw, double tap, reload, double tap. IIRC the reload was 1.95 seconds click to click.

ETAA: Second edit. Hopefully YouTube works better than Facebook apparently was.
 
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That looks impressive and fun!

Maybe a Ruger 45acp convertible loaded from a double-stack 45acp magazine might be useful?
 
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