Should teachers be armed?

[Art Eatman]

Note that there is a difference between, "Most teachers..." and, "Most teachers I've met..."

I've met some teachers who fit Cousin Mike's view; more who have not been that sort of person.

Personal opinion: If a trained/qualified person who's a school teacher has thought of all the ramifications as to security and threats and still wants to carry while at school, fine. The key, seems to me, is the security of the firearm and the legal structure as to "Oops!"-type events. Overall, it's gotta be a fully-discussed deal among teachers, administration, and the criminal justice folks.

Art

 

[Cousin Mike]

Joe... I work in construction... If someone came in and said:

"You know, most of them construction guys ain't the smartest folks on earth,"

I'd be hard pressed to find myself personally insulted. Now, in reading my post over again, I should have made it more clear that my opinion only comes from my personal experience. And in my personal experience, I've had exactly 4 teachers in grade school that made a difference in my life, and the way I see the world. The rest were a bunch of wierdos of varying degrees, and a lot of them were just downright nasty people. I never said they ALL were.

We've all had teachers that impacted our lives in a positive way. Those weren't the average, everyday, run of the mill teachers... Those were the one's who cared about kids. I thought I clearly stated that my problem is those folks who hate kids, are scared to go to work everyday, are rabid anti's, and are just there to collect a check. I'm sorry man, but todays public school system is a joke - and a large part of that has to do with the teachers and administrators. They simply don't care.

So in an effort to clear things up a bit, let me say that I'm not talking about teachers who love their job, or teachers who have a sense of pride about what they do. I'm not talking about teachers who are pro RKBA, who have common sense and who think for themselves. I'm not talking about the 10% of teachers that really make a difference in kids lives, and who WOULD protect them incase of a school shooting. Those people deserve our praise because they do one of the most important (and thankless) jobs in this country.

Unfortunately, in my experience, those teachers are incredibly few and far between... But then again, so are the best and brightest in ANY field... not just teachers.

So, Joe - I'm sorry if those statements offended you. I guess I'm on a roll this morning. But I do stand by my opinions about "most teachers," because most of the one's I've known fit the picture I painted. We have other people in education that are members here who have said the same thing, and that's what I've experienced in my life. ESPECIALLY at the highschool level.

Simply the fact that you post here, or even have any interest in firearms at all separates you from any teacher I've ever known personally. Come and meet my family members who teach - or some of the degenerates I went to highschool with, who are teachers now... Listen to the way that they talk about their students. Listen to the way they talk to their students. Listen to their opinions on the 2nd amendment. If you could tolerate it for more than 5 minutes, it would keep you awake at night.

Then again, since you've been in education for 20 years, I won't insult you by insinuating that you can't see with your own eyes what public education has become in this country. I honestly wish that my experiences with the teachers I know were different... but they weren't.

The reason I didn't become an educator? Funny you bring that up. In 1998 I was awarded a scholarship to UNC Chapell Hill to go into education. A complete FREE RIDE... And I turned it down. You know why?

I hate kids... I knew, even then at 18, that I'd be part of the problem, not the solution... I'd be one of those guys who only chose to become an educator so I could eventually make that nice Prinicpal's salary, or even better yet, one day make Superintendent. The solution is more teachers like yourself, not folks like me. Folks like me are the problem... and I have no qualms admitting that.

 

[crunker]

They should not be forced to do anything like that...

However, if they can obtain a permit to carry and pass a basic firearms safety course, then by God let them protect the kids if they want to.

 

[cloudcroft]

jwalk,

No problem...

If that happens, we invite Eddie Eagle to school to talk to the kids.

-- John D.

 

[Owen]

Should a teacher be required to be armed? Heck No!

Should teachers be allowed to carry? Heck Yes. I would want some sort of qualification for them. A CCW or the local police qualification course would be fine with me. Heck, Give them an extra in-service day every semester for training and qualification.

 

[Joe Demko]

Joe... I work in construction... If someone came in and said:

"You know, most of them construction guys ain't the smartest folks on earth,"

But ya see, Cuz, EVERY time my profession is brought up here the usual cast of performers_plus an ingenue or two_can be counted on to launch into a rousing rendition of "Most Teachers Are" followed by a chorus of "Public Education Must Be Dismantled."

Frankly, I'm tired of it; especially because so much of the criticism is based on fantasy. A long while back, I challenged one of the UCOP to document for me EVEN ONE school in the whole US of A that grades on self-esteem. Just one. I'm still waiting on that. "Most teachers are leftists." "Most teachers are liberals." "Most teachers are not very smart." Blah-blah-blah-de-effing-blah.

 

[Old Fuff]

Regardless of what we think, it is highly unlikely that you're going to see armed teachers in America's public schools. Of course there will be exceptions, but they will be few and far between.

Why is this? Because most parents don't want armed teachers, if anything they want armed police officers. Most think that a sign at the door that's reading, "No Guns Allowed" actually provides some security. We are talking solid sheeples here. The rest are secure in the knowledge that, “Nothing like that could ever happen at our school.” They won’t wake up until something does.

As for the teachers, they don't want to be armed either. As one once told me, "That ain't in my job description." In the first place, the majority of teachers aren't into guns, and a substantial number of them are totally against them in any way or form. They are the backbone of the Zero Tolerance movement. In the second, most those who might be qualified, or be made so, don't want to take on the grief and personal liability.

Finely, any decision isn't going to be made by teachers, individually or collectively. It will be made by the District's elected School Board, and any that might authorize arming teachers will be as scarce as hen's teeth.

The America that was, is no longer the America that is today. :banghead:

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Hmmm, States' Rights

What might be an interesting twist on this is that the States themselves could decide to sponsor "public" schools which do not depend on federal funding.

In these states, such things as armed faculty and a curriculum without so much lint on it could be offered.

Then those parents who were desirous of having their students attend these alternative, but public, schools, could have their kids enrolled there.

Said parents might even be willing to bear some of the cost.

I know I would.

 

[Old Fuff]

Many states have that now in the form of Charter Schools. These are funded by the state, but offer alternative curriculum and teaching methods. So far as I know none have armed faculty, but in my state of residence (Arizona) there is no reason they couldn't. I believe that in my community the number of Charter Schools might come close to, or exceed, that of Public ones.

 

[Joe Demko]

In the first place, the majority of teachers aren't into guns, and a substantial number of them are totally against them in any way or form. They are the backbone of the Zero Tolerance movement.

You know this how? For the record, and for the nth freaking time, WRT Zero Tolerance: TEACHERS DO NOT SET SCHOOL DISTRICT POLICY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You want to blame somebody for Zero Tolerance, Old Fuff? Blame the School Board that YOU elected. NOTHING in district codes and policies gets there without the approval of the ELECTED school board. Anywhere along the line where you cared to, you could have been changing the things you are bitching about by running for School Board. Outside of heavily urbanized areas, getting elected to the board is almost ridiculously easy. Your family and friends voting for you will often be enough to propel you into office.

My New Year's Resolution will, I think, be to avoid any thread here having anything remotely to do with education because I am SO BLOODY SICK of hearing the same ill-informed doo-doo_and like an idiot responding to it_ad infinitum. For all I care, you can believe teachers are all sworn bolsheviks and that we worship Satan every night and feast on the blood of Republican Xian babies. About the time one of you actually runs for school board is about the time I'll give a flying **** about your opinions of the educational system.

Have a nice day.

 

[Old Fuff]

Joe.

On my part there is nothing personal in this.

I agree that School Boards are supposed to make policy, but they often go on recommendations that come from the district's administration, and if an association such as the NEA represents teachers, they often have some influence.

It is the teachers and principals that enforce any policy, sometimes wisely, and sometimes with incredible stupidly. Too often what is missing is common sense and good judgment.

In my posts and those of others we have not hesitated to point out that School Boards can and do make mistakes. In the case that has been under discussion today regarding the youngster who found and turned in a pellet pistol, only to be expelled as a consequence; I observed that the School Board’s rubber stamping the expulsion before the student’s parents could bring an appeal was a major mistake that I suspect will blow up in their face sometime next week. Clearly, teachers and principals were not responsible for what they did.

Unfortunately there have been a number of incidents reported on this forum where students have been suspended, expelled and even arrested for some supposed violation of a weapons policy where common sense would indicate that the inflected penalty far exceeded what circumstances called for. Many of our members are concerned about this, and what they sometimes see as the public school establishment’s attack against values they cherish, which are part of their traditional lifestyle that encompasses constructive use of firearms. Since most of these events begin with some incident involving a teacher and student, it should come as no surprise when the teacher is cast in the role of villain, and sometimes rightfully so.

I make no apology for opposing this trend – if indeed there is one, and as you have obviously noticed, I am not alone in my views. I can understand your point of view, and I certainly support your right to express them. These days the life of a public school teacher is not always an easy one. But we might agree that the most constructive approach would be to remove some of the reasons for the aggravations, and one such move might be for a less aggressive policy within the school systems against anything remotely associated with weapons in general, and firearms in particular. While teachers cannot make policy, they can often influence it.

 

[GRIZ22]

I don't see any problem if the teachers want to and are trained. There are a lot of CCW people who say they carry their gun to protect themselves and their family and that's it. I'm not saying that having a CCW makes you any kind of cop but there is a sense of decency in helping someone in distress.

The biggest obstacle to getting teachers armed on a widespread basis would be the NEA.

 

[mljdeckard]

Ben Shepard,

Despite the obvious number of firearms and hunting enthusiasts in the Utah School system, I doubt there is a single district in Utah that has allowed teachers to regularly carry on the job.

Folks, it's this simple. Why won't districts allow teachers to carry? The same reason the vast majority of all employers won't allow carry on the job. If ANYTHING happens, they will be sued. They will lose or settle. When precedent is set, it is like blood in the water. Respondeat Superior. No district is going to stick its neck out.

If teaching is a lousy job to begin with, it's worse in Utah. Add this to the list of reasons I won't follow my parents' footsteps and teach in public schools.

It's a different world, from when I grew up, we took guns in to school all the time as shop projects, and my principal always wanted to inspect the work. Someone carrying a rifle in and out of his office didn't even raise eyebrows.

And you're absolutely right about the NEA.

 

[jwalk]

The biggest obstacle to getting teachers armed on a widespread basis would be the NEA

...money for training, and hashing out any liability issues.

I got to agree with Joe. The policy issue is made by the administration and school board. If a student goes to a teacher and hands him a gun, it's out of the teacher's hands.

I like the post about English being a useless degree. Whatever degree you have, it's four more years of higher education, oh and if you're a teacher make it five. Look past what degree you received, a degree shows an employer you have the determination and commitment to accomplish a goal coupled with some knowledge about their chosen profession. The military doesn't discriminate when it comes to what subject someone choose to study. Oh well I guess I'll just try to fit in with all the other "libs" so I can be the talk of the water cooler, or just shut up and drink the kool-aid. Maybe not.

 

[Cousin Mike]

Yeah, I kinda said a few stupid things I shouldn't have. No excuses here. Joe's posts helped to put a lot of things into perspective. Here in Columbus, OH the public school system is nothing less than a farce. I've had some really bad experiences as far as teachers/administration go, and I'm not the only one. I've seen our school board ruin kids lives for next to nothing. It's probably pretty obvious I have a chip on my shoulder about it. It's easy to get angry and just carry on about teachers, and I'm sorry for doing that. Doesn't mean my opinion of the state of public schools has changed at all - I just didn't go about vocalizing my opinion in a helpful or thoughtful way.

 

[Howaido]

I know some teachers who are former LEOS, former military, etc.

IMO, like somebody said, teachers should be given the opp to carry provided they pass ALL the certs that LEOs do in that particular state concerning use of force, firearms qual, psychological, etc.

All teachers have to pass background screenings, so that is not a big deal. Teachers shouldn't have to carry though. Some could handle it, many couldn't IMO.

 

[Zoogster]

"Most teachers are leftists." "Most teachers are liberals." "Most teachers are not very smart." Blah-blah-blah-de-effing-blah.

It is because many are, and those who are not are represented by unions in the big population states that are entirely leftists. These unions fight for thier pay raises and benefits, and part of thier paycheck usualy automaticly goes towards thier policies. This is the case with most peace officers, whether cops, prison guards etc, With Nurses and with teachers. These 3 institutions cover safety and security (peace officers) health (nurses represented as the whole medical world) and teachers (education of all the children of our society.) They are very credible to mr and mrs average Joe and they are spoken for by unions that have union leaders hand select a couple to speak for everyone else who is part of that union. These unions are all extreme left and almost communist, after all they are labor parties. Whether the members of the unions agree with thier politics or not they are one of the main financial sources of the leftist politicans and left leaning party. They also have people from the professions the average person has to trust in at some point to further thier agenda using thier credibility and public trust (cop nurse or teacher adds for or against this prop etc telling people how they should vote) and get a lot of the leftist agenda accomplished this way.

So no maybe not all of them are, but they are represented by unions that are and they won't be speaking out against those that represent them because they are who fight for thier wage and benefit increases.

 

[Old Fuff]

From the NEA (National Education Association) website:

· Require locks or other safety devices on all guns;
· Ban the sale of semiautomatic assault rifles;
· Stop the sale and importation of high-capacity ammunition clips;
· Require mandatory background checks;
· Prohibit handgun possession by those under 21;
· Establish tip lines for students to alert adults about potential violence.

Obviously this agenda shows that this teacher's union is a ultra-conservative, right-wing organization...

Zoogster is dead on...

 

[Joe Demko]

When can I expect you to officially announce candidacy for schoolboard, old fuff? Surely a man with your sharp perceptions would be a valuable addition to the educational establishment. Plus that would mean you were actually doing something to change all the things that are wrong. More, anyway, than posting here.

 

[Steve 48]

I have worked for the public School's for 30 years as a School Psychologist so I work with some of the worst kids and parents. I do feel at least several trained people at the school should be well trained. I do have a CCW permit and carry when I can but not at school due to the laws. Steve48

 

[Old Fuff]

Joe Demko:

When can I expect you to officially announce candidacy for schoolboard, old fuff? Surely a man with your sharp perceptions would be a valuable addition to the educational establishment. Plus that would mean you were actually doing something to change all the things that are wrong. More, anyway, than posting here

I have no interest in the local school board Joe, because I march to a different drummer…

In our community we actually have more charter schools then we do public ones, and their number is rapidly growing. For example there are at least three private schools offering classes K through 12, and only one public high school. The charter schools have smaller classes, higher academic scores, and far less administrative bureaucracy then you find in a typical public school system. Also, in Arizona the state's school aid funds go to whatever school the student attends.

Jeff Cooper once said in effect that, "a bureaucrat is someone whose brain has been replaced with a rulebook." I have seen too many good kids messed up by some school bureaucrat who lacked any common sense and couldn't get past his or her handbook, so I actively and financially supported some better alternatives.

When a school system has a bloated administration with more personnel than teaching staff it's time to look for something better.

By the way, what are you doing to address the numerous problems within the public school community?

 

[ricci316]

I posed this question to a group of my students and for the most part I got the same answer over and over again. For the most part, they would feel safer if they new at least a few people in the building did carry concealed. These students are aware that in the case of an emergency where someone has entered the building with intent to do harm upon students or staff, the police can not respond in enough time to stop a violent student or criminal. My students feel that an armed staff member or two would be a life-saving tool at times like these.