Sig P238 Range Report and a new kind of failure.

[Peter M. Eick]

P 238 Range report.

I bought a 238HD pistol recently and I wanted to report on my experiences and look for advice.

First the gun:

This is after 200 rnds of firing.

The gun is nice, all stainless steel, nice size and weight and seems reasonably well fitted. I was planning on using it to replace my Gov 380 as a carry gun, that is why I went for the stainless steel.

I took it to the range and immediately found an issue. I had purchased several sig mags to go with it, and I found that the extra mags were different then the one mag that came with it.

The original mag is on top, and the other 238 mags from sig I bought all look like the one on the bottom. The one on the top does not work as well as the one on the bottom. Does anyone know which one is the newer of the two? I was going to call customer service about it tomorrow.

As soon as I started shooting I got failures to extract and the gun would tie up. You had to then drop the mag, let the slide come home and pull it out and this time the extractor would catch and the gun would work again. At least once a mag with Remington FMJ’s and Remington golden saber ammo. I forgot to take a camera to the range so I could not take a picture of it but I figured the extractor needed some work. Anyway, I continued blasting.

I noted that the gun would not lock back so I looked at it and saw that the guide rod was sticking out a bit. I called it quits and went home. I pulled the top off and found this:

Obviously we have a problem. I have never seen anything like this happen before so I was surprised to say the least.

I have a colt gov 380, so I pulled it down and here is a comparison of its spring (bottom) and the 238’s spring

I have never seen a spring collapse like that before so I will have to call sig about it tomorrow.

This got me interested in the extractor, so I did the classic check the tension approach:

There is barely enough tension on the extractor to hold a round. It took me many times to get this picture because it would fall off every time. Thus the extractor probably needs more tension.

I then pulled my gov 380 and 238 extractors to see if I can see some differences:

The gov 380 is on the bottom and it is 100% reliable. The sig 238 is on the top and it is well about 33% reliable.

Note the differences.

The sig extractor is rounded, lacks the bevel at the bottom and is somewhat negatively cut in terms of the angle to the base. This is very pronounced in the second picture. See the bottom one is undercut and the sig (top) is at a negative angle so it actually is not catching the round, but is pushing it away.

I believe the problem is pretty obvious. The extractor needs some tweaks. What you can’t see here is that the hook depth is noticeably less so the sig extractor gets less bit on the rim.


So where does this leave me. I view it as a call to sig for service and an email.
1) I need to get a replacement spring
2) I need a replacement extractor that is properly cut
3) I need a replacement magazine that works.

Hopefully I can just get the parts and not have to send the gun back. It would irritate me to have to pay shipping for such simple tweaks.

Suggestions, comments, ideas?

 

[KBintheSLC]

Holy crap! This does not look good at all. Keep us posted on how the folks at Sig respond.

 

[WardenWolf]

I see frame damage in the next to the last picture, top left by your finger. That's likely caused by slide impact due to the faulty spring. I think Sig owes you a new pistol.

 

[HisSoldier]

I see frame damage in the next to the last picture, top left by your finger.

Looks like a bur to me, should come off with pressure from a fingernail.

The gun is nice, all stainless steel,

Oh I wish that were true! The trigger is plastic, in fact the triggers I made for Colts drops right in, they are 416 stainless. But even worse is the main spring housing, it's plastic, and making them will involve a lot of work, I'm working on that.
We shouldn't have to order special parts for a stainless steel gun to replace crappy cheap plastic parts!

 

[WardenWolf]

If it was just a burr, the slide's movement would have taken it off. Also, that area is angled towards the rear, not straight. While that could be a design feature, it also could be due to impacts.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

No burr. I just pulled it out and it is definately peening up the metal there. The slide is soft right there and metal is peening out.

SIGH.

Back to sig land it goes.

 

[HisSoldier]

It's insignificant. Even if it isn't a bur 5 seconds with a file will remove it. A new gun??? sheesh.

 

[WardenWolf]

No burr. I just pulled it out and it is definately peening up the metal there. The slide is soft right there and metal is peening out.

SIGH.

Back to sig land it goes.

Thought so. Sorry to hear it. I'd contact whoever you bought it from and see if you can get a refund instead. This gun looks like a real turd, no offense. Rough finish everywhere, even on the breech block. You might consider milsurp next time.

It's insignificant. Even if it isn't a bur 5 seconds with a file will remove it. A new gun??? sheesh.

It's still damage to a brand new gun caused by a manufacturer defect. Damage that could possibly invalidate future warranty claims if not addressed. You want your new gun to be perfect. You shouldn't have to live with damage like that.

 

[hammerklavier]

The finish looks really bad on all the black parts (the outside of the chamber, just below the words .380 auto, the trigger, and the hammer, all have a blistered appearance, the front sight looks like the finish has gone missing).

 

[dc.fireman]

I had a friend who recently left Sigarms in NH. He'd worked for them for the last 7 years. He wouldn't say why he left, just that he didn't like it there anymore. I can't help but wonder if this is one of the reasons. It seems like the quality of certain Sig firearms has gone downhill in the last few years...

 

[HisSoldier]

The parts are MIM, which, to me, alway looks bad.

I agree that the follower on the lower magazine has damage where it contacts the SS, and that could have caused the tiny mark at the slide stop recess, but more importantly the spring damage is truly uncalled for, and I'm wondering if the follower caused that somehow. One of my Colts, a Mustang plus II, did that to the spring, but that was with the Colt doubled spring, and the replacement Wolf spring solved that problem. These Mustang sized guns seem to operate near the edge of capabilities of spring technology, but it looks like something weird happened to that spring. That something would indeed justify sending it back.

 

[WardenWolf]

The parts are MIM, which, to me, alway looks bad.

These Mustang sized guns seem to operate near the edge of capabilities of spring technology

There's plenty of pistols, milsurps even, which use direct blowback with rounds a bit more powerful than .380. These commercial .380's are hardly at the limit of spring technology. This Sig is a breech-locking design, which means the spring would not have to be as powerful as it would on a direct blowback. Overall I'd say this Sig is badly designed. It's overly bulky and has poorly made parts. There is no reason to use an offset spring action on a .380 ACP. All it does is set the barrel higher which increases muzzle flip and shooter discomfort, a major issue on these tiny guns. It also allows much less space for a proper spring.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Normally I would not complain about things like this, ie the peening or the extractor problems etc. i would just replace the parts, and move on. See, normally I buy used guys and that is just par for the course when you buy used.

But this was new, with only 200 rnds fired. I shoot my guns, even my 380's and I tend to shoot a lot which is why I bought the HD model. I was going to bang away with it. Even my Gov 380 has gone 2600 rnds with less damage then this one shows and I usually consider it my worst gun.

So back it heads. I will call Sig in the morning and see what they want to do. I am sure I am not the only one having this problem Just a bit of frustration that you have to deal with occasionally.

 

[kokapelli]

Normally I would not complain about things like this, ie the peening or the extractor problems etc. i would just replace the parts, and move on. See, normally I buy used guys and that is just par for the course when you buy used.

But this was new, with only 200 rnds fired. I shoot my guns, even my 380's and I tend to shoot a lot which is why I bought the HD model. I was going to bang away with it. Even my Gov 380 has gone 2600 rnds with less damage then this one shows and I usually consider it my worst gun.

So back it heads. I will call Sig in the morning and see what they want to do. I am sure I am not the only one having this problem Just a bit of frustration that you have to deal with occasionally.

I suspect the recoil spring collapse is the cause of all the problems.

I wouldn't hesitate to send it back and I expect Sig will pay for shipping.

Hopefully Sig will take care of the problems for you because for a pistol almost the same size as the other pocket 380s it really is a good shooter and by far the softest and easiest shooting micro 380 I've owned or shot.

 

[HOWARD J]

I have two mag for my Sig P-238. One purchased after the pistol.
They look like the bottom one ( no pimple )
I think somehow this incorrect mag helped screw up your pistol.
Demand a new pistol with correct mags.
Don't take no for an answer.........................

 

[loneviking]

On my Sig P6 and on the P226's I've seen, the spring has a narrow end and a wider end. If you get 'em reversed, the gun can fail to cycle properly IF you manage to even get the gun reassembled. If that is a new gun and no ones been into it, then a trip back to Sig is definitely in order. And yes, it does look like possible frame damage to me.

 

[HisSoldier]

There's plenty of pistols, milsurps even, which use direct blowback with rounds a bit more powerful than .380. These commercial .380's are hardly at the limit of spring technology. This Sig is a breech-locking design, which means the spring would not have to be as powerful as it would on a direct blowback.

The little Colt design is a peculiar case, indeed the springs don't hold up. It's a similar case as the Colt Officer's model which has the same problem. Colt addressed it by using an inner and an outer spring, but they fail pretty quickly in many guns.

The Sig has the same identical problem, which they use the single spring on.

The answer is probably a flatwire spring, that would be the spring technology that would fix the problem that does exist in these short barrerled guns.

There just isn't enough room to effectively use a normal spring in, this has been my experience and that of many others as well. It's not about the amount of power, it's about the short throw these guns have.
For proof look at the Colt Government .380. it has a fraction of the spring problems the Mustang has.

 

[HisSoldier]

I have two mag for my Sig P-238. One purchased after the pistol.
They look like the bottom one ( no pimple )

Mine also, the one that came with the gun has the rounded follower and no dimple, and the replacement made by Sig looks the same. I would expect the JMB design with dimple would be better, but there are plenty of Colt .380s with the rounded follower. Neither of mine shows the follower front edge chewed up as in the lower magazine.

 

[ichiban]

The spring in my p238 is installed opposite from yours (small end to the guide rod base). Works fine.

I enjoy my P238 and the only problem I have is that it will occasionally not lock open after the last round with this new recoil spring. Hopefully you can get yours running smoothly.

 

[kokapelli]

The spring in my p238 is installed opposite from yours (small end to the guide rod base). Works fine.

I enjoy my P238 and the only problem I have is that it will occasionally not lock open after the last round with this new recoil spring. Hopefully you can get yours running smoothly.

I think you may be on to something and I didn't notice how that spring was installed on the guide rod until you mentioned it and you'r absolutely right, he has it on backwards!

Sig has a video on lubrication and they make a point about installing the spring with the small end to the base of the guide rod.

The recoil spring in the P238 has two extremely different ends and I can see that installing the spring backwards can cause some real problems!

 

[Jolly Rogers]

If it came out of the box with the spring installed that way it's Sigs problem.
If however the owner detail stripped it and cleaned and lubed the gun first before he shot it all bets are off. He should order a new Wolf Mustang spring and install it correctly and move on. Deburr the slide stop notch and shoot it. Sig is very specific about the spring install in the manual and they are for a reason. The spring will fail when installed backwards.
I have a friend that has miss installed the recoil springs on his 1911s at least 5 times that I have caught it. Some people shouldn't take guns apart.
Note I have no idea what the OP did or didn't do but when I as an owner screw up I don't blame the manufacturer, I own up to the mistake and fix it.


Joe

 

[LightningMan]

My spring did much the same thing, but broke in two pieces. I think I caught it in time before firing another round, as I did not find any frame damage, just a mark left on the guide rod, by the broken spring. I easially buffed that out with a dremmel. I stated in a another thread about owners being satisfied with their P238's, as I felt the only drawback to this pistol is the short life of the recoil spring. Mine went somewhere around 400 rounds, so I replaced it with a 13 lb. Wolf Colt Mustang spring, and ordered two just in case. We'll see how long it holds up, but feel there should be a better design for this pistol. I would think a two stage type like Kahr uses for their PM9 would be better suited for this pistol. I really like shooting it, but am limiting my shooting of it for this reason. If someone would come up with a better recoil spring design, they could make a lot of $$$ IMO. LM

 

[sr-71]

Sig P238 problems

Mine beat the slide up within 50 rounds and it was correctly assembled. It also peened the right side of the feedramp at the same time. Building the slides from MIM is not too smart for a gun like this. Mine has been at the factory for two weeks. It seems all the ones having the problems are the HD ones. The mags were like the lower one without the dimple. CS never quetioned me, just emailed a UPS label and back it went. They are onto a great little gun I think they just didn't spend the time and money on it like they should have. We're not paying for or getting a discount so we should be getting a poorly made weapon. Sig's reputation is dropping really fast and they seem to not care just fix the ones that come back and continue cranking them out.

 

[philip964]

I had never had any problems with the P238 till this weekend.

I bought an extra SIG mfg mag last week and almost immediately after I began using it I had a failure to extract. The mag also did not want to come out easily as the original mag and required much effort to pull it out using fingernails. I looked carefully at the two mags and the original mag has a black metal magazine follower. It is smooth on the top.

On the offending mag this piece of metal is silver like the rest of the mag, it is also smooth on the top.

If you note the small folds on the top of the mag are larger on the bottom pictured mag. The mag that works is also that way. The one that does not work has the smaller folds on the top of the mag like your upper pictured mag. I am suspecting this smaller fold is the problem.

The recoil spring goes in with the big end towards the front. Hard to tell how yours was installed as it is a mess, wow. Apparently this spring must be replaced every 1500 rounds. I get the impression on this site that 1500 rounds may be optimistic.

I have now about 250 rounds with this one failure. I stopped using the extra mag and the extraction failure has not reappeared. It will be going back to the store this week.

 

[JoeSlomo]

Man, that sucks...

I can see maybe a bad lot of springs resulting in the spring failure, however, there is NO excuse for the extractor. That is straight up lack of attention to detail on a critical component by the manufacturer.

Sig would get the gun back and a nasty-gram as well.