Sight Picture/Alignment Questions

[Doublehelix]

I originally posted this over at another forum, but wanted to see how the THR folks would respond to this as well:

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I have a couple of questions regarding sight picture and alignment I would like to ask the collective knowledge around here. I am mostly referring to USPSA/SCSA/IDPA shooting with iron sights. I am currently shooting Limited Major if it makes a difference to the discussions. Obviously, Question #1 does not apply to optics shooters for the most part.



1) Which sight picture do you use and why? I have always used "combat sight alignment" (also called "sight image 3") where the dot of the fiber optic covers the intended POI. I have been talking to several USPSA shooters lately that use a "6 o'clock sight alignment" (also called "sight image 2") claiming that it is faster for them.

All of my guns are setup for a combat sight alignment, and honestly I am not sure I want to change it now. I think you can be good at anything you are used to and have practiced, but since I keep hearing about the 6 o'clock hold, I thought I would at least see how popular it is and why folks use what they use.

2) At what distance do you sight in your pistol? I have always used 25 yards, but I am thinking that I need to shorten that distance. What distance seems most useful for the normal USPSA shooter? We have targets that vary from 7 yard wide open targets to 30 yard mini poppers.

As an add-on to question #2, if you sight your pistol at a shooter distance (say 10 or 15 yards), do you change your POA for long target shots to compensate for bullet drop?

3) How much bacon do you eat before a match? Hehe...

Thanks in advance for any responses.

 

[waktasz]

The second one.
#3 isn't very fun when you are trying to hit a 6" plate at 30 yards and #1 is way too imprecise unless you are shooting Bullseye where you always know that the bottom of the circle is some number of inches from the bullseye.

I set up my sights around 18 yards.

 

[waktasz]

btw, you are asking for a lot of noise by just asking everyone this question. I like to ask people to qualify their responses by including the discipline they shoot and what rank they have achieved, otherwise you get IDPA Marksman spouting off advice as if it were the word of the lord John Moses Browning himself.

I primarily shoot USPSA and am a GM

 

[ATLDave]

I shoot USPSA, and am classified "A" in LTD. Like waktasz', I try to have my gun set up for #2 (although I surely don't execute as well as he does!). At close ranges, there's not much practical difference between shooting a gun set up for #2 versus #3 with a #3 hold. In fact, if you're sighted in for a longer distance - say 25 yards - then up close the bullet will be slightly below the sight picture. So if you sight in for #2 at distance, you can pretty much shoot #3 pictures on the fast/easy shots.

I'm very glad the pictures were provided. I wouldn't call #2 a "6 o-clock hold." That's what #1 is. #2 is a combat sight picture. Remember that lots of iron-sight guns don't have fiber front dots or anything other than a plain black blade, and the bullet landing exactly at the tip of the blade is "combat sighted" in my view. The 6 o'clock is when you are sighting for a target at a known distance and using the precise definition offered by some visible scoring boundary (such as the lower edge of the black on a bullseye target) as opposed to trying to hold the "middle" of some larger area. In uspsa, the scoring boundaries aren't visible, we are shooting things of different sizes (plates and poppers and turtles, oh my), and they are at wildly varying distances within a single stage.

Note: In PPC (not PCC), the old revolver-based static shooting game that kind of bridged bullseye and some of the more "practical" shooting games, some shooters would have adjustable sights on their guns with pre-set positions, and would use a 12 o'clock hold (well above the X) to shoot the silhouette at a certain distance? Why? Because they could aim at the neck of the silhouette - a relatively small and highly visually distinct aim point - and then "drop" the rounds into the X. Google "PPC neck hold" if you want to learn more about this completely useless-for-USPSA technique!

 

[Doublehelix]

Thanks guys, greatly appreciate the input.

Regarding the definitions of "combat hold" and 6 o'clock hold, I have always been told that a combat hold is when the front site (dot) is centered over the bullseye (sight image 3 in the diagram above) and 6 o'clock hold is then the POI is resting on top of the front sight as in sight image 2 above, but maybe your are right about the 6 o'clock hold being sight image 1 in the diagram above.

A quick bit of Google-Foo seems to support my set of definitions for the combat sight, but in the end, the name we call it means nothing I suppose:

https://www.sigsauer.com/support/faqs/
All SIG SAUER production duty/combat pistols are set up to use a “combat” sight picture. This is where the front sight completely covers the bullseye of the target.

https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/sight-picture-theories/
6 o’clock Hold vs. Combat Hold
There is an extension of the sight picture theory discussion that focuses on target alignment. One concept, often called a “6 o’clock” hold, aligns the sights at the base of the bullseye. Some call it the “pumpkin on a post” method, with the target as the pumpkin on the post of the front sight. However, there is another alignment preference, commonly referred to as a “combat” hold, in which the shooter aligns the sights directly over the bullseye.

 

[ATLDave]

There is an extension of the sight picture theory discussion that focuses on target alignment. One concept, often called a “6 o’clock” hold, aligns the sights at the base of the bullseye. Some call it the “pumpkin on a post” method, with the target as the pumpkin on the post of the front sight. However, there is another alignment preference, commonly referred to as a “combat” hold, in which the shooter aligns the sights directly over the bullseye.

Right. That's what I'm saying. Pumpkin on a post = 6 oclock hold. Not pumpkin impaled exactly halfway down post, which is #2. And not pumpkin with a post up its rear to the stem, which is #3!

All semantic joking aside, the pictures you provided allowed us to communicate with one another very clearly. That was a good move!

 

[Doublehelix]

Right. That's what I'm saying. Pumpkin on a post = 6 oclock hold. Not pumpkin impaled exactly halfway down post, which is #2. And not pumpkin with a post up its rear to the stem, which is #3!

All semantic joking aside, the pictures you provided allowed us to communicate with one another very clearly. That was a good move!

Yep total agreement, you were right on the 6 o'clock hold... BUT.. *I* was right on the combat hold!!! LOL!!!

@waktasz actually posted the pictures, which you are right, was a GREAT help. Thanks!

In all seriousness, your post was a great help, and I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I always find your posts helpful, seriously.

I find it interesting that BOTH of you use sight image #2 above. Hmmmmm... old habits are hard to break, and I have always used #3. Dang, maybe I need to try #2 and see how it goes. I can certainly try it with slow shots, but at speed, that is going to be difficult to get used to.

 

[ATLDave]

Yeah, but “at speed” it won’t make much difference! I think a lot of shooters just “shoot the dot” on close stuff... I’m among them. But the GUN is set up for #2 and when a small vertical angular difference counts, I have to aim to #2. Most shots... makes no difference.

 

[Hoser]

For bullseye #1 is the most common.

For USPSA/IDPA #2 is the most common.

For PPC #3 is pretty close to what is used.

I sight in most of my iron sight pistols for 15 yards unless its a bullseye pistol then its zeroed at whatever range I am shooting at.

 

[Jim Watson]

Ooh, a "combat hold." We used to just call that a Center Hold. If we wanted to sound salty, a Marine Hold.

A lot of European service pistols are set up for a #3 sight picture, aiming with the paint, not the post. Known here by Tier 1 Tactical Operators (or reasonable internet approximations) as "drive the dot."
If you get in a hurry with a fibre optic front sight or a night sight in low light, that is what you are apt to do anyhow, your eye is drawn to the bright spot.

 

[waktasz]

I wonder how many people are actually shooting 3 dot sights currently. Can't stand them.

 

[ATLDave]

I wonder how many people are actually shooting 3 dot sights currently. Can't stand them.

They are definitely out of style in USPSA. It's pretty striking how almost all the serious iron-sight shooters have migrated to basically the same setup - fiber front, plain black notch rear. Size of the dot, width of notch relative to post width - all that stuff seems highly individualized. Some like the dot red, some like it green. But it seems like almost everyone is running basically that same kind of setup.

 

[waktasz]

Yep. I like a green fiber and a .100 front post

 

[ATLDave]

Little green dot for me, too.

 

[Doublehelix]

I wonder how many people are actually shooting 3 dot sights currently. Can't stand them.

They are definitely out of style in USPSA. It's pretty striking how almost all the serious iron-sight shooters have migrated to basically the same setup - fiber front, plain black notch rear. Size of the dot, width of notch relative to post width - all that stuff seems highly individualized. Some like the dot red, some like it green. But it seems like almost everyone is running basically that same kind of setup.

Yep. I like a green fiber and a .100 front post

Little green dot for me, too.

Yep, same here, black rear notch and .100 Dawson FO front. Tried the green for a while, but came back to the red.

I have my gun at the smith right now getting an EGW ignition set fitted and installed. He will be sighting it in as part of his final testing process. I have asked him to sight it in at 15 yards using Sight Image 2 so I can test it out that way when I get it back. If I don't like it, it is easy enough to switch back to Sight Image 3 in about 5 minutes and 30 rounds or so.