Since my response got stifled.......(for civilians only)

[GeneC]

RMC said" ".....which don't look good 'cause I think you just committed at least one, maybe two, felonies in any state in this union. "


Really, and what'd they be? I see a man , who I don't know walk within spittin' distance of me and I see he's carrying a gun and I don't know him and I talk to him about it and he cops an attitude about it, I can't be reasonably concerned about my safety? I'm supposed to wait 'til HE draws on me and shoots me or mine? Like I said, I'll let a jury of my peers decide, but I've broken NO laws.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Really, and what'd they be?

Well, I'm neither a lawyer nor a cop, maybe one or the other will come along and help out, BUT, it may be called "Felony Menacing", or "Assault with a Deadly Weapon", or something else, depending on the location.

 

[GeneC]

RMC said: "Well, I'm neither a lawyer nor a cop, maybe one or the other will come along and help out, BUT, it may be called "Felony Menacing", or "Assault with a Deadly Weapon", or something else, depending on the location."

"which don't look good 'cause I think you just committed at least one, maybe two, felonies in any state in this union. "



Really? Well just a minute ago you were sure I'd committed at least a couple of felonies. There's also a 50/50 chance I just thwarted a robbery where someone or everyone got wounded/killed. Like I said, he presented the scenario, I said what I'd do and I stand by it come Hell or high water.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Gene, I think you're just blowing a lot of hot air, unless you're posting from a prison computer. Anybody who'd actually draw down on a guy because he was printing in the QuickE Mart doesn't have much in the way of common sense. And, yeah, I think you'd go to jail charged with a felony, unless the sheriff is your brother in law.

 

[GeneC]

So says a citizen of the socialist state of California. Btw, how in the world would me posting from a prison computer(which I'm NOT) mean I'm NOT blowing hot air? You folks in kali sure take things out of context( probably why y'all're in so much trouble). I'll try to speak s-l-o-w-e-r, it wouldn't be JUST for printing, but the way he acted when I spoke to him about it. Sure , it'd strictly be a judgement call, but if in my judgement, if my safety is in question, damn right I'll draw down on 'im.

 

[R.H. Lee]

While I was out throwing the Kong for the dog, I thought of some other charges the DA could bring against you. How about "Making Terrorist Threats"? (That one's compliments of the Patriot Act). If you menaced an old person, you'd be charged with "Elder Abuse". If the person was of color, in some jurisdictions you'd be up on a "Hate Crime" (assuming you're white). I think with your attitude, the DA would throw the book at you just to watch you squirm.

 

[GeneC]

Again, so says a socialist subject of California. Maybe in your Hollyworld, but not mine. So, are you taking up CCW's slack, 'cause he can't hang? Are you his 'lap dog' or do you have your own agenda? Btw, 'throwing the Kong for the dog"? Is that some form of Kali beastiality? You folks out there are SO far ahead of the rest of us.

 

[Zundfolge]

but, if he say's MYOB, I'm gonna walk past and turn around a draw on him and DEMAND to see his CCW and warn him if he even twitches towards his gun, I'll put him down, 'cause there's 50/50 chance he's a BG or deranged and I'll take my chances.

GeneC if I knew who you are and where you lived I would give your sheriff an email with a link to this thread because YOU are clearly a danger to society carrying a concealed firearm.*

First off, you are willing (as a non police type person ... not that it would be right if you where a cop) to draw a deadly weapon and threaten deadly force against someone for a possible misdemenor? (at least here in Colorado and back where I'm from in Kansas, concealed carry without a license is only a misdemenor ... and a minor one at that).

lets revisit this jewel of wisedom; "...if he even twitches towards his gun, I'll put him down, 'cause there's 50/50 chance he's a BG or deranged and I'll take my chances..."

50/50 chance he's a bad guy? Where do you get your statistics? The VPC web page? Plus, can you tell the difference between someone going for their wallet to get their CCW and someone going for their gun IWB at 4 o'clock?

Go ahead, take your chances, but if you pulled that crap to me I'd either shot you (if I though I could) or at least press charges. Go ahead and take that chance and you will most likely end up in jail and never allowed to own a gun again. At the very least you WILL lose your CCW.

Keep in mind that in some states if you (again, as a non police type person) asks me to see my CCW then if I show it to you I have just violated the rules of my CCW.


So GeneC, make the world a safer place and MYOB.

* although I suspect GeneC is not licensed by any state to carry a concealed weapon because most states require some form of training, and most of the training goes over when you can and cannot draw ... and this is about as clearly a "no draw" situation as I can imagine.

 

[R.H. Lee]

You folks out there are SO far ahead of the rest of us.

As true as that may be, Gene, get back to the point and quit with the ad hominems. (I'm laughing so hard it's difficult to type). You think it's legalto draw down on some guy in the quick mart just because he's printing and you don't like his attitude? Isn't there some LEO reading this who can disabuse Gene of this nutty idea?

And btw, a "Kong" is a big rubber thing you tie a rope to and throw for the dog. Maybe it's a California thing, I don't know.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. GeneC, Please

don't tho down on people you don't know because they look suspicious.

I go away fer just a couple of hours and this happens.

This potential bg you are assaulting is just as likely to be an undercover cop or a dea agent or an ATF guy going into the Snatch & Grab to try to catch the counter clerk selling cigarettes to minors.

You can tho down on us civilians and maybe survive, but I can assure you that you do it to a leo and you will be outa there in a body bag. Then the leo gets some time off with pay and maybe a commendation.

I repeat, PLEASE don't do it.

If I had a CCW permission slip I would show it to you.

Please, Please, Please don't tho down on somebody unless yer gonna shoot them.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. WYO, sorry I hadda go away and

Thank you for your response. Please, I am not poking fun, but I think it's a clever leo ploy to quote the "I'm not gonna respond to hypotheticals" talk like I was a what, rookie? or an errant child.

Especially after my response was to your exemplification of a bunch of "drag 'em off the street for human sacrifice religious or shooting in the air" hypotheticals yourself.

But seriously, I am encouraged by the statement you made about your discretionary activities. You may be playing me like a fiddle or the guy you let walk may have been the mayor's nephew, but regardless, I am beginning to have some hope.

I hope I am not getting you into trouble. If your bosses read this forum I can understand how you would try to appear to be the unwavering thoughtless robotamon, just following orders and doing what yer told. I hope not. I hope yer telling the truth.



O'course if Crop talks nice about you, yer probably in trouble with other leos on this board anyway.

 

[Zundfolge]

If I had a CCW permission slip I would show it to you.

I wouldn't. How do I know he's not going to just ask me to hand over the money in my wallet while I'm at it? No, once he crossed that line and cleared leather over such a stupid thing he's a criminal and I don't obey criminals.

If I thought I could draw and fire fast enough I would (which if I'm looking at Gene's muzzle I doubt I'd have time) otherwise I'm going to be yelling for the store clerk to dial 911 and ducking behind something ... if Gene is stupid or cocky enough to hang around and wait for the police then he gets a free ride downtown and we never have to worry about him carrying a firearm (legaly) again.



Biggest problem is that this cowboy makes the rest of us who have jumped through the hoopes to get our note from mama government that allows us to carry look like the danger that VPC, Sarah Brady and Diane Feinstein want the general public to believe we are.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. Zundfolge, this is a serious situation

All life is precious. Mine, yours, even Mr. GeneC's.

What do they say?, Err in haste, repent in leisure. When they gotcha, reach for the sky. Only time to go fer the shootin' iron is if it appears that he's gonna shoot. Then you duck and weave. Run serpentine. Otherwise, don't make sudden moves. Talk calmly. Move slowly. Act repentant.

Mr. GeneC is just a little misguided, not a capital offense to any other than a leo. Better to let him work off his errors than to have to defend yourself in court to his heirs.

Everybody here...........Please don't go shooting each other unless we have to.

 

[Zundfolge]

Only time to go fer the shootin' iron is if it appears that he's gonna shoot.

Some guy I don't know has a gun pointed at me and is demanding my wallet (or at least the CHL inside it) ... sorry, but if ever there was a time to "go fer the shotin' iron" I think thats it ... that said, I'm not going to unless I'm pretty close to 100% certain I can draw and fire before he can (which if he's got the drop on me is unlikely). Otherwise I'm yelling for somone to call 911 as I back away (hopefully something to dive behind).

I've been robbed at gunpoint before ... its not pleasant and its a big part of why I have a CHL.

Mr. GeneC is just a little misguided, not a capital offense to any other than a leo. Better to let him work off his errors than to have to defend yourself in court to his heirs.

Everybody here...........Please don't go shooting each other unless we have to.

I quite agree ... I fear that if Gene pulls this crap he's going to end up dead, in the hospital and/or in jail and a poster boy for the antis.

 

[firearms_instructor]

Uh, GeneC,

"I'm not even a LEO, but I don't you from Joe Schmuck and you could have just killed your family and are going on a killing spree. If I see you carrying, I might ask for your CCW, or else we might have a problem. I might draw on you and demand it and if you refuse, we'll wait for the police to do it, if you move towards your gun, I'll ventilate you to the floor. Hey, it's the times and my right to protect myself and my family, see? If an LEO sees you printing, I EXPECT him to question you and check you out, just as I would if they saw me printing, but I have NO problem producing my CCW. I consider it a 'badge' of honor and the penalty for being stupid enough to allow it to print in the first place."

I'm not an LEO or an attorney, but I am a certified firearms instructor. Now, I don't know where you're from, but I can tell you for sure that, at least in Florida, you are not justified in drawing down on somebody just because their piece printed. Nor do you have the authority, at least in Florida, to demand to see someone's CCW, unless you are an LEO. I suspect your hypothetical behavior in that scenario would be a felony offense in most jurisdictions. You are not justified in drawing your weapon if you are not justified in using it, and in most jurisdictions that means your life has to be in clear and immediate jeopardy. Yes, you have a right to protect yourself and your family, but ONLY IF THEY ARE ACTUALLY BEING THREATENED. PRINTING IS NOT A THREAT. DRAWING DOWN ON SOMEONE, THAT'S A THREAT.

This is exactly what the antis are always bleating about: "If you let people carry guns, it'll be just like the Wild West all over again!". Please don't be a poster boy for the antis.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. LawDog, you got me.

I cannot recall anything in the constitution that prohibits PRISONERS from asserting their rights just like every other person.

Perhaps 13a might cover it.

Article XIII.

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

But that doesn't allow for a guy held and charged, but not convicted.

This becomes a problem. Seems like amendment 8;

Article [VIII.]
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

would imply that being held without bail would be unconstitutional, since that would qualify as excessive (namely infinite) but if a guy couldn't come up with a non-excessive bail, he would "belong to the state" as it were.

I don't know, you got me there, I, unlike some on this board, am not above admitting when I don't know.

I could use some help here from some smart non-leo, taxpayers who have read and understand the constitution.

Maybe it's in Blackstone's definition of the "People". That would make sense.

What is the difference between a;
1) criminal
2) felon
3) prisoner?

I think....
A criminal is a person who did a crime (caught or not) and
a felon is a criminal who has been caught and convicted and
a prisoner is a felon who is in the slammer.

It would appear that a prisoner is (ignoring misdemeanery) a felon, but not nececelery that a felon is a prisoner.

I guess it is understood by most that once a felon, always a felon whether in the slammer or not, unless some authorized person pardons them.

I remember being in the Navy. I belonged to the state. I had no civil rights to speak of. I couldn't keep a weapon under my bunk. At the time it seemed to make sense, but you may be right, maybe it was wrong.

 

[atek3]

GeneC, you were talking some wacky smackto in the AWB thread but really, this stuff is over the top. It's like a stand up comedy routine in a mental ward, "if I see some guy print and he offends me, I'll have him stare down the barrel of my .45".

If GeneC pointed a gun at me and told me to show my CCW, I'd grab my cell phone instead, call 911 and report a nutcase waving a gun around.

atek3

 

[thefitzvh]

I'd like to add something about GeneC's repeated "Socialist California" attacks.


Many of the THR members in this board have done more for gun rights in a few months than you've done all your life. not mentioning any names, but When was the last time you applied for CCW (and paid the fees), 3 times, just to prove that, no matter what your reason, the sheriff wouldn't issue to you. When was the last time you fought hard for legislation to release those CCW records, and when was the last time you sat down, in a police station, and refused to move until the Chief brought you his CCW policy manual, as required by law.

I suppose we should leave the state, thereby making it worse for all the other gun owners who stay behind. No thank you, I'll stay and fight the good fight. Jim March knows if he needs someone to do anything for him in San Diego, paperwork, leafletting, whatever... he's got it in me, and probably a few of our other san diego members.

THe "Socialists" on this board, myself included, among others, are FIGHTING for gun rights, while you sit here and spout your drivel about how, if a law abiding citizen were printing in a store, you would draw on him. First of all, if the second amendment says what we all believe it says, that guy has every right to carry a weapon. In addition, you're not an LEO. I pray you never become one,because I believe that someone will end up dead. (as a side note, I would support an LEO asking for a CCW if he saw me printing, because I believe it's his job to prevent crime. I don't think asking for a citizen's CCW, if one is an LEO, is an infringement.) I hope you don't have a CCW, and if you do, I suggest you get some psychological help for your control issues.

I suggest you seriously evaluate your reasons for owning and bearing arms, Rambo. It's people like you who give our cause a bad name.


James

 

[LawDog]

Okay, we'll call that one an exemption to the Second Amendment. Seems to me that even one exemption to a right means that the right can not be absolute, but let's see if we can come up with another.

Also in my facility at this time is a young man who was, until recently, confined to the Texas State Hospital due to a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, among other things.

Late last year, while still in the institution, he woke up one day before sunrise, walked over to his room-mates bunk and broke his room-mates' neck.

I guess the snoring just got to be too much.

Anyhoo, this young man is not mentally competent to stand trial. Two state judges and a host of people with a whole lotta letters behind their names have decided that he doesn't realize that what he did was wrong.

So, he's going back to the State Hospital, probably for the rest of his life, but he's not a convicted felon, nor is he -- technically -- a murderer.

Not a prisoner, not a convict, no criminal history, nada.

Again, should this young man be allowed to keep an M4A1 and 460 rounds of ammo under his bed to bear as he pleases?

LawDog

 

[Glock Glockler]

Seems to me that even one exemption to a right means that the right can not be absolute

I always went by the saying "your right to swing your arms ends when your hands hit my face", though I'd be confortable with a bit even before that But seriously, if one infringes on the rights of another they have lost their rights by breaking the state of peace that had existed between him and the rest of civilized society, he essentially waived his rights at that point.

Again, should this young man be allowed to keep an M4A1 and 460 rounds of ammo under his bed to bear as he pleases?

It would seem that he has less reason than my dog, so no, why would he have RKBA or many other rights when he could not even enter into a simple contract and have it upheld? This kid belongs in a home.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. LawDog, I don't remember conceding

that there was an exemption to 2a. I remember writing that I couldn't figure it out and asking for help from someone learned in the constitution.

I have been pondering this quandary for most of my free time during the day and I have been troubled. I like to feel that my beliefs correspond to the constitution and if they don't, then I modify my beliefs. The constition IMO is the most perfect instrument for running a govt. yet devised. I am compelled to say that even if I disagree, I will comply.

Then I remembered the 5a. That one says,

Article [V.]
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

(my emphasis) It would appear that we got a case of dueling amendments. The DoI states that we have an unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (Tom really wanted to say property too) and then we got 5a coming along saying that we can deprive one of life, Liberty and or property provided we do it with due process of law.

Now it starts to make sense. Every person has the right to keep and bear arms. If a person breaks the law, and if duly processed, he may be deprived of life (if he is a really bad guy), liberty and or property. Liberty is locking him up in prison. Property is his shootin' irons while he is in prison.

Further, a crazy who has been "adjudicated" as a crazy has been duly processed by law. Thus they can deprive him of his liberty and property.

That's the exception. I will concede that an involuntarily confined crazy and a duly processed by law prisoner do not have the right to keep and bear arms.

To follow through.......

If a felon serves his time he has abid by the law. Thus he is law abiding. The felon's personal protection has been provided by the govt. while he was in the slammer (Yeah, sure, other than a little fudge packing against his will) but once he has paid his debt to society and has been released, he shoud regain his right to KABA since he is, once again, responsible for his own safety.

OK?

 

[WilderBill]

Another point for Gene;
I once worked in a QuickeeMart.
During my entire shift I had one hand on a loaded pistol, ran the register with my left hand.
If I had looked up and seen someone in my store, pointing a weapon at a customer, I would have felt compelled to drop him first and ask questions later.
Given that this particular location, was robbed an average of every couple of weeks, the police kinda expected us to be armed, nervous and covering our own butts.
I would imagine there are still folks in that trade who insist on improving the chances of living through their shift.

 

[LawDog]

Please, let me make sure that I am understanding your response here:

You are conceding that it is okay to infringe on or deprive someone of their Second Amendment rights as long as due process is followed?

LawDog

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Mr. LawDog, please,

I feel like the mouse sticking his nose up to the cheese on the little piece of wood that is the trigger to the trap. This is way cool...

I love this line........I am not accustomed to responding to and frequently refuse to respond to hypotheticals, but.......

am I a resident of DC or a US govt. fort? Was I involved in some infraction which incurred in a post office or us govt. court house? Am I in the militia (which is actually in service) or in the land or naval forces? Have I been accused and convicted or counterfeiting US securities or coin? Am I a pirate on the open sea?

The big five? Property crime?

or what?

It makes a difference.

 

[Penforhire]

Wow Gene! I thought most of us had the attitude that an armed public is generally a "good thing." If you're concerned because of the mere presence of a sidearm that doesn't sound good.

Like others have mentioned, your life is not in danger because someone you don't know is ccw'ing clumsily. If I were on your jury, based solely on your statements so far, you'd be doing some hard time for even menacing someone who never drew his weapon. You have no personal right to pre-emptive violence (let's not wander into national politics). And although I'm in wussified CA I'm no liberal.