"Six seconds from safety"

[novaDAK]

I'm sure most of us have heard of this in IL, where you carry an unloaded gun in a case, bag, fanny pack, or purse, with a loaded magazine OUT of the gun.
The idea is that if you feel the need to defend yourself you open the bag load the gun in 6 seconds if you're good.

After this last incident at the mall in Omaha, I really feel like I can't go anywhere without the risk of some nutjob shooting up the place.

Here's the deal though with me...in VA you have to be 21+ to get a CHP, so that's not an option for me for another 2 years unfortunately.

Now, open carry is perfectly legal here, even stated on the VA state police website. Though I feel that sometimes it's not appropriate, whether due to dress or location, so I'm just toying with other LEGAL ideas.

The thing is is that I can't find VA's code/laws on transporting, not carrying a firearm.

So would I be able to carry an unloaded gun (have several pistols already I've gotten as gifts ) with a loaded magazine in the same bag? Like I said, I know this is no where near as good as having a loaded gun ready to go (like if concealed or open carried) but this is the best I can do at the time unless I choose to OC, and I figure having a "unloaded" gun with a loaded mag ready is better than having nothing.

Thanks in advance

 

[Liko81]

Open carry is open carry. Concealed carry is concealed carry, and transporting is transporting. If you have the gun and loaded mag in a bag that you carry on a daily basis, that's usually concealed carry whether the mag is in or out. If you are taking the bag to or from a gun range or other shooting exercise, that's travelling. And if you have the gun on your hip in a holster, that's open carry.

The subtleties of definitions vary from state to state (in TX for example, because of a strengthened "traveler assumption", a gun kept out of sight in a car must be assumed to be under transport regardless of its accessibility). Your state may only define a weapon in an immediately useable state as being "carried", and therefore the "mag out" loophole could be defensible. However, unless there were a specific definition of your intended carry as "transport", you'd be rolling the dice on convincing an officer, judge and/or jury that a gun carried in a fanny pack on a daily basis, invisible to the general public, is anything but concealed carry.

I think your best bet is open carry in an OWB belt holster and magazine holder. You know that's legal (in VA at least), and there is no question that it's open carry, versus a messy dispute about concealed carry vs transport. If it seems inappropriate to carry the gun somewhere, it's a judgement call concerning not wearing the gun there or carrying it in a manner that technically conceals it, but where you could argue intent (it's open carry without a jacket, but the jacket covers the holster). That latter option is a legal minefield and I cannot in good conscience recommend you do so.

Of course, because you don't have a CWP/CHL for that gun, it is illegal to bring it on the premises of any business with a liquor license, any "adult entertainment" venue, or anywhere that can lawfully ban firearms on their property including buildings with metal detectors.

 

[Jeff White]

Six seconds is about 4.5 seconds too long. Six seconds to safety is about the dumbest thing anyone on the progun side ever came up with. You aren't going to be able to call "time out!" and have your attacker wait while you load your weapon and get ready. Even if you can smoothly draw and load your pistol from a fanny pack in the comfort of your living room in 6 seconds, that's no indication of how well you'll be able to do it after the massive adrenalin dump you get in a real fight.

Six seconds to safety is nothing more then a way to make a political statement and any attempt to connect it to a valid defensive tactic is simply a lie.

After this last incident at the mall in Omaha, I really feel like I can't go anywhere without the risk of some nutjob shooting up the place.

Turn the TV off and don't log onto the THR or any other firearms websites for a week. Listen to music, read books, go about your life. There are more people killed by lightning strikes in a year then have been killed in mass shootings in the US in the last 5. Do you refuse to venture out of your house without a portable lightning rod system?

Jeff

 

[novaDAK]

thanks for the advice guys

I guess the media is good at getting people's minds going

 

[novaDAK]

another quick question, if I were to OC (read a whole lot and asked questions at OCDO but...) how would be a good way of OCing if I were wearing a wool coat or zip-up sweatshirt and long pants with a belt?
(like 3 or 4 o'clock or 11:30, etc.) so that my jacket wouldn't accidently cover up or have to be bunched up behind (kinda difficult with a wool coat).
Also, I've heard that it's best to use a holster that has an active retention (like a thumb break/strap) instead of one that relies on passive retention (like a kydex open-top). True?


EDIT: also just to make one other thing clear, I'm not saying the "six seconds to safety" is a good idea at all, I'm just saying that it's just an option (even if a poor one). I just wanted to ask about it, that's how we all learn afterall

 

[glummer]

Six seconds is about 4.5 seconds too long.

Well, yeah.
But it sure beats six minutes (Apparently what it took for the cops to arrive in Omaha.)

Turn the TV off and don't log onto the THR or any other firearms websites for a week.

I second that motion.
How many people have been shot in malls this year?
Maybe 20 or so?
How many died in traffic accidents on the way to/from the mall?
I’d bet a hell of a lot more.
Don’t sweat it too much.

 

[El Tejon]

Fine, but I'm still going to carry anywho.

 

[Spartacus451]

Turn the TV off and don't log onto the THR or any other firearms websites for a week. Listen to music, read books, go about your life. There are more people killed by lightning strikes in a year then have been killed in mass shootings in the US in the last 5. Do you refuse to venture out of your house without a portable lightning rod system?

I am glad somebody said it. The media reports news. News is only news if it's new and different! When they no longer bother to report them we should start worrying.

 

[springmom]

another quick question, if I were to OC (read a whole lot and asked questions at OCDO but...) how would be a good way of OCing if I were wearing a wool coat or zip-up sweatshirt and long pants with a belt?

That depends. Your body shape has a lot to do with it, what is comfortable has a lot to do with it, how large the gun you carry is has a lot to do with it.

I carry OWB when I'm in the woods, and for me, as a woman who will NEVER be mistaken for Twiggy I find 3:00 to be the best for that. Also, once I leave, if I want to run into a store on the way home, a fleece jacket or something of that weight will conceal it quite well. I have even managed to conceal a 66-3 in a Safariland paddle holster that way (much to my surprise, since that thing is much larger than my Kimber). But you'll have to experiment with what works for you.

Springmom

 

[novaDAK]

thanks everyone again, springmom I know what you mean, I'm "a bit big" if you know what I mean, and I also find that carrying even a full size .45 or 9mm it's most comfortable OWB in a kydex open-top paddle holster, because it seems to distribute the weight well, it doesn't feel like it's trying to lean outwards if you know what I mean. Right now I'm ineligible to get a CWP for another two and a quarter years, so the problem is NOT concealing it.

As for the original topic, like I said before, since I can't carry concealed at this point, I figured just having a gun with me would be better than nothing, if nothing more than more peace of mind than anything else, which is why I was asking if anyone knew Virginia's laws defining what is "transportation" vs. "concealed carry".

also, I'm not trying to foresee the future in any way, but if people have the time to find cover and hiding spots (like at VT or Omaha) then I could afford the "six seconds" to load my gun. Like I'm trying to get across, IMO, it's better to just have a gun even if not loaded already, than to be utterly defenseless.

 

[Cold_B]

This thread makes me wonder what exactly the legal defention of open carry is. I always assumed it was carrying in a OWB with it occassionally peaking out.

The only way I can think of to always have the gun in view would be a leg drop holster or a jackass over your coat.

 

[novaDAK]

yeah...only method that wouldn't look completely rediculous would to OC in an OWB (or even IWB, but I don't have one at this time) at the front of the waist, around 11:30-12:30, so that the open coat wouldn't cover it. In va, it's considered concealed even if it's visible but hides the gun's true nature, aka, if the gun is disguised as something that isn't a gun.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/statelaws/26thedition/virginia.pdf

 

[Don Gwinn]

I only carry the unloaded gun in a pack because I like to be able to tweak politicians about it.

 

[Autolycus]

Jeff White: Would you advocate not carrying in the fannypack? Because for those of us oppressed by our government in IL, it is the only option. I think it is not right to say it is a bad idea as it is our only option in IL. I agree with you in that it is not the best method but the only other option are to carry illegally or pray that the police will be there to save you.

 

[Zoogster]

I think an unloaded firearm carried by you is only good for offensive purposes. That could be a good thing, allowing you to offensively come to the rescue of someone in such a mass shooting, or other criminal activity if you felt compelled to do so, and take responsibility for where every single round you fire goes.

However for defense it is close to useless in all but a few situations, far less likely than most defensive situations.
Most cases that would warrant use of a firearm will require you to deploy it within a split second to withn a few seconds without exagerated and obvious motions such as loading a magazine and putting one into the chamber.

Carrying an unloaded firearm not immediately available for defense actualy is more likely to arm an assailaint with your firearm than protect you.
If someone robs you with a knife or a firearm or other weapon they are going to want to see what is in your fanny pack, pockets etc, and may just want the whole thing taken off, not opened.
Either way once they find the firearm and magazine they will proceed to load it and be armed with your firearm. This may be while they are robbing you, or it may be down the street when they open your fanny pack to find what is inside.

If they find it and you resist you have an immediate struggle over an unloaded firearm. This lends the advantage to them if they are already armed. So you will be in a struggle over not allowing them to gain control over your unloaded firearm rather than being able to put a round or two into them.
If you "win", you retain control over your firearm, maybe have stab wounds, blunt trauma wounds, or were shot if they have a firearm, and if you lose they now have a pistol they can load, and may shoot you with or run off with to use in thier next crime.
So having an unloaded firearm is more likely to be detrimental to you or thier next victim than it is to save you.

A weapon that cannot be deployed with one hand in a sudden unexpected arm distance situation is not very useful. If you make a move for your weapon you are going to need one hand to deflect or redirect thier weapon, or keep them busy inflicting injury while you do it. Loading a magazine and putting one in the chamber is going to require two hands. That means while you are attempting to do that you will be cut, stabbed, hit over the head, shot or otherwise gain little to no protection from the firearm.

 

[inkhead]

"Stop, stand still! I'm going to mace you while I load my gun!!"

 

[Jeff White]

Tecumseh asked;

Jeff White: Would you advocate not carrying in the fannypack? Because for those of us oppressed by our government in IL, it is the only option. I think it is not right to say it is a bad idea as it is our only option in IL.

No I don't advocate fanny pack carry in Illinois. Number 1, it's not been proven to be legal. There is yet to be a court case ruling it legal. To my knowledge everyone who has been arrested for it has had the charges dismissed. Here are the possible legal consequences of fanny pack carry in Illinois: You can be arrested for felony UUW. Being it is a felony arrest the Uniform Bond Rules don't apply and you get to sit in jail till you see the judge. Getting arrested on a Friday night could ruin your whole weekend, cause you aren't getting to have your bond set till Monday. You get to hire an an attorney. If you have a job, or own a house, you can forget a public defender, the law says if you can't afford one. That literally means if you don't have any money or assets you can sell. It doesn't mean if you would be inconvenienced by paying for one. So you pay your new criminal attorney a nice retainer, it averages $1500 around here YMMV and anywhere from $165 to $400 an hour. That buys you his time to meet with the states attorney and discuss the UUW law. Maybe the states attorney takes it under advisement and keeps your trial on the docket while he does research. Now you're out on bond, probably anywhere from $750 - $3000 cash out of your pocket if you're a first offender. One of the conditions of your bond is that you don't possess firearms. So you get to turn in all the guns you didn't have on you when you were arrested. There are also standard boilerplate conditions of bond like abstaining from drugs and alcohol while out on bond. So if the officer who arrested you see you coming out of the bar, he simply arrests you for violating your bond and it's right back behind bars. So you live a rather boring (for a college student) life until your case comes up. You get ready to go to court and your lawyer convinces the states attorney he'll see it dismissed if he takes it before the judge. The states attorney drops the charges. The circuit clerk probably has already attached enough fees to you case that most of your bond is forfeit to pay them. You are out that money and what you paid your lawyer, probably another $2000-$3000 total. And you now have a lifetime record in the NCIC Criminal History File that says: Tecumseh 1 Charge Unlawful Use of Weapons - No Convictions. There will also be a caution note that every police officer who ever runs your criminal history will get back about you being armed, because there is a block on the fingerprint card that has to be checked if you were armed when arrested. You can expect to be delayed every time you want to buy a gun for the rest of your life. You have a felony weapons charge to explain to every potential employer for the rest of your life.

If you think that all of those possible negative consequences is a fair trade for the illusion of safety you get by walking around with an unloaded firearm, then go for it. I'm not recommending it to any Illinois resident. In a real attack, by the time you could draw and load your weapon, your assailant could have punched, kicked, shot or stabbed you multiple times. Then he'll probably take your unloaded weapon from you and leave with it. You are better off without a firearm in that situation then you would be fumbling around trying to load it, when you should be fighting or running.

Jeff

 

[Harvster]

If SSFS is your only option then I'm all for it. Sure there are situations where it might not be effective, but, the same goes for regular open carry or concealed carry. I'm sure you can think of scenarios where even 2 seconds is too long. You can just as easily imagine a situation where 6 seconds is plenty of time. Every situation is different and you can play that "what if" game all day long Another possibility is that you don't even need to load it. For example, BG starts walking toward you with a baseball bat and threating you. Maybe just showing the gun would be enough to cause a BG retreat. How many muggings, bank robberies etc., happen everyday when the person merely says that they have a gun. And heck, in some instances I'd rather be carrying a rock in a fanny pack than nothing at all.

 

[glummer]

Jeff

The circuit clerk probably has already attached enough fees to you case that most of your bond is forfeit to pay them.

They take your bond to pay court costs, even if the charge is dismissed?

 

[Jeff White]

glummer asked;

They take your bond to pay court costs, even if the charge is dismissed?

You haven't been around the criminal justice system much, have you? In my example there would have been court costs associated with the arraignment, costs associated with removing it from the docket when the charges were dropped, depending on what county you were in, reimbursement to the sheriff for the time he was incarcerated, fees to the probation department for monitoring while he was out on bond....it goes on and on.

Jeff

 

[ShunZu]

1. Get a 3.5" pocket Kershaw or other "single hand" (LEGAL) pocket knife. (No automatics allowed in IL, nor are blades 4" or more).
2. Learn how to use it. (Spelled: f o r m a l t r a i n i n g b y e x p e r t s).
Watching TV isn't how you properly learn defensive knife techniques.
3. Carry it regularly.
4. Survive the Illinois court system and keep all those $$ in your bank acct.
5. Live to fight another day for something worth fighting for.

Fanny pack is way too slow, and like Jeff said, it hasn't been proven in the courts yet.

'Course, there's nothing wrong with having a piece in its case in your truck or car's console, (loaded) magazine out of the pistola, and being 100% compliant with the current laws. There are some situations that may give you enough time to ready it, and still stay within the law. Under this current regime of idiots in Springfield, I'm not hopeful we'll see CCW anytime soon. But then, if you travel to other states that I do fairly frequently on business, such as Missouri, Oklahoma, TX, TN, KY, you can apply for a non-resident CCW in PA or UT, and go armed LEGAL-like. If you've ever been to the gang-infested "Laclede's Landing" in St. Louis, you'll definately be more comfy with a non-res CCW.

 

[Beatnik]

NovaDAK, have you been to opencarry.org with this question?
There are quite a few Virginians on that board.

I understand how OC is frustrating. I'm really into the idea, but I'm really into not getting arrested as well. If there was a primer somewhere on how to go about it, I'd be sure to tell you, but as it is, it's kind of up to us to figure it out on our own. Unfortunately most of what I've heard about OC is wrongful arrest stories.

http://www.vcdl.org/static/gue.html
Here's a list VCDL keeps of businesses who don't want our business... It's a start, anyway. AFAIK everywhere else is legal, unless they ask you to leave. As far as "appropriate", I'd like to know where you're going with that.

Where are you in VA?

 

[novaDAK]

NovaDAK, have you been to opencarry.org with this question?
There are quite a few Virginians on that board.

I understand how OC is frustrating. I'm really into the idea, but I'm really into not getting arrested as well. If there was a primer somewhere on how to go about it, I'd be sure to tell you, but as it is, it's kind of up to us to figure it out on our own. Unfortunately most of what I've heard about OC is wrongful arrest stories.

http://www.vcdl.org/static/gue.html
Here's a list VCDL keeps of businesses who don't want our business... It's a start, anyway. AFAIK everywhere else is legal, unless they ask you to leave. As far as "appropriate", I'd like to know where you're going with that.

Where are you in VA?

Yeah I'm over on opencarry.org, I post under the simple name "nova".

When I said appropriate, I meant when I'm with friends or family, because my family while fine with the fact OC is legal, they don't think it's a good idea because of the risk of being hassled. or like when I'm with friends when I don't want to have to watch my back for a grabber (though I keep aware of my surroundings whenever I go out, and even the times I'm alone at home when the family's out somewhere. Basically "out of sight out of mind" so my friends and family wouldn't be thinking about it or getting any wrong ideas.

 

[TEDDY]

under age carry

as Jeff W said is it worth the court hassel.I think not!I am 83 and have never been bothered except when I lived in Boston.I carried legal and other wise.however you lose everything if arrested for violation of gun law.convictions are never forgotten.wait your two yrs and do it right.dont ask why I know. :banghead:

 

[ilbob]

'Course, there's nothing wrong with having a piece in its case in your truck or car's console, (loaded) magazine out of the pistola, and being 100% compliant with the current laws.

Not in Illinois. IIRC, at least one appeals court has rulling a locked glove box does not qualify as a case as defined in the UUW act. i can't see any reason they would accept a console.

This is Illinois. Only criminals have rights here. Average citizens don't.