Sizing Cast Bullets

[GLOOB]

Yes, I've used a Lee sizer in 223 and 7mm. And no I've never used a Saeco.

Re: Saeko:
From your description of how it works, it sounds like it seats the check pretty good. But when you push the bullet through the sizer, backwards, there's no guarantee it'll stay straight while the check gets squeezed down, now is there? Maybe it stays straight every time. I wouldn't know, which is why I said theoretical.

Or if the check gets sized/crimped when it's seated, then it should stay on there pretty straight, indeed, even while sizing the bullet, afterward. But then you just may have an issue with concentricity, if the gas check shank isn't perfectly filled out or otherwise asymmetrical. The check would be on there straight/flat, but it might not be perfectly concentric with the rest of the bullet. When it goes through the sizer, it would then center, but might squish a little on one side, just a hair, or even tilt. Not by enough to worry about, but it's still a theoretical issue that is addressed by nose-first sizing, since nose-first centers and sizes the bullet and check at the same time, while keeping the gas check flat against the pusher/seater stem while it's being crimped on.

From your description of how a Lee sizer seats checks, with the check held on "only by friction," it just doesn't sound right. I can't figure out how you were getting "blowouts." Were you pushing the bullets through backwards?

Sorry if I'm sounding argumentative, again. But your description of the benefits of your bullet sizer for seating gas checks still leaves something to be desired. Is it faster? How much faster does $200 get you? Do you use a hard lube? That's a good enough reason in itself. Does it actually seat the checks straighter, and how have you verified this?

I've got 750 223 bullets in front of me, all sized/checked with the Lee sizer. I've yet to have a single mishap of any sort, so I for sure haven't had any blowouts. Curiosity getting the better of me, I have randomly pulled out 30 of them and stood them on end on a sheet of glass. I can't visually detect any degree of tilt to any of them. Not a one. And small diameter bullets like 223 are the ones I hear people complaining about how hard it is to get the gas check on straight. As I have explained, it doesn't matter how crooked you put the check on of how uneven the base of your boolit. If you can fit the check over the shank, the Lee sizer should put the oversize crimp-on type of GC on straight, every time. I don't understand how it could fail. Except maybe with short, stubby pistol rounds, the check might start to get squeezed down before the bullet straightens?

Maybe you can share with us which specific bullets and which brand of gas checks you have these blowouts with? I'm not calling BS, I'm just trying to learn something.

 

[SSN Vet]

I've only loaded about fifty or so gas checked .30 cal bullets...

But all I did was set the check on the bech, press the bullet into it and then push then through the Lee sizer...

No troubles.

The frustration I've had shooting 100 yds with lead is that a pretty significant adustment was needed to the rifle sights. And since I also shoot jacketed at full velocity, I didn't "appreciate" having to fuss with the sights so much.

IMHO, if your going to shoot cast, you set your rifle up for cast and then stick to it exclusively.

 

[GLOOB]

For my 7mm, I just pour some checks into the lid of the pellet tin I keep them in. I dip the end of the bullet into a GC to pick it up, then size. When there are no more right side up checks, I shake a little and/or pour in some more.

The shanks on my 7mm are just barely big enough to hold the check. I "Lee-mented" the shanks on the mold, and it's imroved, but 1 out of 30 still falls off while I'm tumble lubing. The edge of the shank is also slightly rounded. So it's easy to pick up a GC like that. I just put the fallen off checks back on, and when the LLA dries, they stay on good enough to seat and shoot without any further problems; I don't seat deep enough for them to fall off in the case.

With my 223 bullets, the shank is a tighter fit, and the edge of the shank is sharper. I have to pick up a check and snap it on with a finger. It helps to hold the tiny bullet if I wear a glove, and sometimes I even smear a little LLA on my finger to help pick up checks.

In either case, I waste no effort to make the check straight. The 223 checks, in particular, are quite often crazy crooked. If I let go and look at it, the bullet will be grossly slanted while sitting on the seating stem. But after they go through, they all come out looking the same.

 

[Hungry1]

I've only loaded about fifty or so gas checked .30 cal bullets...

But all I did was set the check on the bech, press the bullet into it and then push then through the Lee sizer...

No troubles.

The frustration I've had shooting 100 yds with lead is that a pretty significant adustment was needed to the rifle sights. And since I also shoot jacketed at full velocity, I didn't "appreciate" having to fuss with the sights so much.

IMHO, if your going to shoot cast, you set your rifle up for cast and then stick to it exclusively.

I hear that. The limited amount of lead shooting I've done so far with reduced velocity loads in 30-06 and 30-30 required a significant change in elevation.

With the 1903 Springfield it's not as big a deal as the 30-30, due to way the sights are set up. I'll just make notes as to what elevation markings are needed for cast rounds.

For my 30-30 with skinner sights, it's a pain in the rear. I need to order their extended post sight or find another iron sight alternative.

 

[GLOOB]

The frustration I've had shooting 100 yds with lead is that a pretty significant adustment was needed to the rifle sights.

A very simplistic calculation of drop:
At 2500 fps, it takes a bullet 0.12 seconds for it to reach a target at 100 yards, not factoring air resistance.
In that time, it will drop:

y = Vo t - .5 g t^2
y = 0M/s * 0.12s - .5 (9.81M/s^2)*0.12s^2
y= -0.07069 meters
y= -7.1 centimeters

at 1800 fps, it takes the bullet 0.166667 seconds to reach the target
y= -0.13625 meters
y= -13.625 cm

The delta is 6.5cm more drop at 100 yards. About 2.5". About 20 clicks on your average scope. You'd probably want to adjust higher, yet, to retain more of your "point-blank" range at the cost of a higher deviation at the peak.'

The previous owner of my 7mm-08 shot 500 yard silhouettes. So I have plenty of elevation on my scope rings, created by the coke can shim he put under the rear.

 

[Duckdog]

My programs show the bullet drop to be much, much less than 15" @ 200 yards, depending on what you are sighting in at.

Point blank shows a drop of 4.86" for a 170 gr FNGC @ 2150 FPS if sighted in at 150 yards, and the Lee calculator a drop of 4.66" for the same. I know from shooting this load that this is correct. Lee shows she's already at 12.56" @ 200 yards, so the drop starts pretty quick.

This bullet makes for a fine hunting round as well at this velocity, as long as your alloy is good.

 

[GLOOB]

Simplifying velocity as a constant, I'm calculating 3.76" drop for a 2150fps bullet at 150 yards. So that's not too bad, compared to 4.66/4.86". Wind resistance slows the bullet, so the time for the bullet to reach the target takes longer than I'm figuring. It makes sense that the real drop would be more.

The Lee calculation of 12.56 + 4.66" at 200 yards makes a total of 17.2." My calculation shows 15.04". Not bad, at all, for high school physics.

But more importantly, good job getting a cast bullet to make 2150fps with just a gas check.

 

[blarby]

lyman and hornady.

lemme see if I can dig some of the wonked ones up ,or if I allready pitched 'em.

Sorry I cant reply as much... workin a ton right now !

 

[budman46]

hungry1,

the 165g lee tl wouldn't be the thing for a tube magazine unless you loaded only two rounds; at minimum the nose could become battered; a rounded or flat nose would be more appropriate. i like the 165 tl because it feeds in everything i shoot, where rounded or flat noses can hang up during feeding from staggered magazines on some of my milsurp bolt actions.

gloob,

i agree with your comments on lee vs. "better sizers". for me, changing sizer dies on the lyman or rcbs was an anxious moment; alignment of a sizer in the press could be iffy due to the lube in the machine. cross-threading the finely threaded retainer nut is very easy.

i dumped two "better sizers", assorted dies, lube and many nose punches after experimenting with lee's push thru and liquid alox. faster, cheaper, easier to use, liquid alox perfroms as well or better for me. a pal told me to tumble my finished bullets in motor-mica, keeping them from being sticky...gotta try it.

 

[Hungry1]

hungry1,

the 165g lee tl wouldn't be the thing for a tube magazine unless you loaded only two rounds; at minimum the nose could become battered; a rounded or flat nose would be more appropriate. i like the 165 tl because it feeds in everything i shoot, where rounded or flat noses can hang up during feeding from staggered magazines on some of my milsurp bolt actions.

I appreciate the feed back budman. I did order that mold. I'm going to try out some Accurate 5744 with it. Cant wait!

 

[Duckdog]

I just shot a slug of 170 grainers at 2150 fps with just a gas check a couple of weeks ago with no leading, so if done right, luck really doesn't play into it. It takes a bit of messing around to get the right combo.

A properly sized bullet with the right powder and lube and it is pretty simple.

What range are you talking about sighting in at to get that 15" drop at 200 yards? I made a typo on the lee data, It is 12.54" @ 250 yards as a total, not in addition to the 4.66". The other figures were at 200 yards with a sight in at 150 yards.

I'm looking at the trajectory charts and at 200 yards in point plank, with that 170 gr bullet at 2150 with a BC of .268, it is 4.86" of total drop,(zeroed @ 150 yds). I have shot this for a long time and it is pretty close.

I am wondering if we are talking two different things. I am talking actual bullet path and what one would have for drop in sighted in at 150 yards, when you may be talking total drop???

 

[GLOOB]

Yeah. I was figuring total drop. The bullet starts dropping soon as it leaves the barrel. I guess im a newb at firearm specific ballistics Yeah i misunderstood. I was figuring the drop from laser bore poa and actual impact. Thanks for the clarification.

Btw the weight of the bullet is completely irrelevant in a ballistics calculation aside from its indirect relationship with BC.

 

[chris in va]

I would NOT recommend using a lead bullet in a gas semiauto. Tried a GC Lee 155 in my Saiga, locked it up solid after 40 rounds. A lead ring formed in the gas block where the piston face enters.

It took some hard whacks with a mallet to get it unlocked.

 

[GLOOB]

Oh, I've locked up my rifle, too. But I can get way more than 40 rds. I can get close to 300 rds between cleanings without too much grief. I suppose I could also just turn off the gas and shoot 'em one at a time, but that wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

I machined a wrench to tease out the gas plug and push out the piston without scratching anything or needing to torque on the flimsy "ears" on my gas plug. The lead comes off like nothing, once you get the parts out.

I'm sure I'll break something, eventually. But I hope to have worn out the barrel and saved enough money on ammo to buy a completely new rifle by then.

It took some hard whacks with a mallet to get it unlocked

When my piston seized, I had nowhere to whack it. No forward assist. Hoppe's freed it up after a few minutes. If it happens again, I suppose I could let the bolt slam forward after the Hoppe's sets in. At the time, I didn't think of it. Luckily, the Hoppe's was all it took.

 

[Hungry1]

Another question:

I got my mold delivered tonight. I cast up about 100 boolits.

I lubed them and am applying checks with the Lee .311 sizer.

Do y'all lube again with checks applied?

Thanks

 

[Duckdog]

If you're usin a Lee sizer, yup. You want to tumble lube them again.

 

[Hungry1]

Thanks

 

[Certaindeaf]

Some guy here was recently telling how he seats unsized gaschecked bullets (just placed on there) directly into a sized case. Says he gets good results.

 

[blarby]

From your description of how it works, it sounds like it seats the check pretty good. But when you push the bullet through the sizer, backwards, there's no guarantee it'll stay straight while the check gets squeezed down, now is there?

Yes, there is.

I don't mean to be a pain, but you are mentally dismantling something you've never held or used- and that's difficult to do. Philosophically its an interesting fancy, empirical data suggests completely different results and experience.

Look up how the Saeco sizing dies work. Better yet, get your hands on one. If its one from a friend or fellow loader- be warned, there will be a purchase in your future if you like good cast bullets.

I didn't believe it either. I fought, kicked, whined and moaned that it wasn't possible.

Then I tried it.

It works.

It forced me, kicking and screaming to get the credit card out. I'm one of the cheapest SOB's there is. It's not a gimmick... That sizer was one of the best things I've ever laid cash out for on my loading bench. My primary loading press is a $60ish dollar hunk of red metal. My sizer for cast bullets was $300, and the sizing dies are $38 each diameter- that does not include the $16 per bullet profile top punch. I don't buy things because I like spending money.... I buy things that perform as advertised and give great results. Durability is a big one for me too... I burn through cheap and poorly made tools like most people go through toilet-paper...but I digress...



I know its only a 3c check, its kinda the principle of it, I guess.

I didn't get into handloading because "Ok" was good enough for me.

Once you learn a little bit more about how the bullet base really drives your accuracy- OP- You'll understand why I like good check application.

This problem would be intensified by trying to seat a standard shank bullet and check into an oversized sizer. I.E. a 308-.309 cal check into a .312 or .311 sizer.

Unless you cast flawless bullets, every single time ( I certainly as heck don't ) and seat them completely square and level on the lee sizing ram- you are going to get reject quality check application. You just can't seat a check properly that way. It may work 9 times out of ten, it may even work ten times out of ten sometimes- but its never been 100 for 100 in my experience.

Having the check centered and square on the shank certainly helps.

I've tried to find a few of the castoff checks, but I think they went out on the last recycling run.

As I said, its not a complete deal breaker... but I'm really demanding.

Yep, I bought a pricey tool to save 3c checks- I sure did. I needed something to apply high-quality lube too, so it worked out.

 

[budman46]

hungry1,
a casting tip: aluminum moulds are easily scarred by lead smeared under the sprue cutter. lubing sparingly underneath the cutter with a bit of 2-cycle motor oil before casting and re-applying when lead starts to smear, aluminum mould's lifespans are increased dramatically. i also use a dab on the alignment pins. a bit applied to the pouring holes keeps sprues from sticking. steel moulds benefit too. q-tips work well.

5744 is great; used plenty, but was persuaded by the folks @ castboolits to try 2400 for its lack of positional sensitivity. it's cheaper and i use less to achieve the same velocity to boot.

 

[budman46]

expensive, highly engineered equipment provides results superior to cheaper tools...maybe in theory, but in practice, not always. saeco's, lyman's and rcbs's stuff should produce better results than lee's simpler system, but my experience shows that to be untrue. they all do a great job, but ease of use and cost swayed me to lee's system, which is why i gave my lyman and rcbs away.

newbies may eventually decide to spend $$$, but if there's good stuff that lets them get their feet wet for less, i think they should hear about it.

 

[jcwit]

I'll stick to my Lyman #45 lubers and use a gas check seater when seating checks. Works fine for me and much better than the Lee system, and I like Lee Products in general. I have 2 Lyman #45's, paid $15 for one and $20 for the other. Going to try the aluminum checks and if they work may get a FreeCheck.

 

[Elkins45]

Try this: run your bullets through the Lee push thru sizer BASE FIRST with the gas check first. This seats them the same way that using an "in and out" tool like the Lyman does (unless you use the dedicated gas check seater as an extra step) and the nose doesn't distort enough to matter with relatively hard alloys.

 

[jcwit]

Have no had any issues with the nose of the bullet distorting yet and it's been decades.

BTW I made my own gas check seater, very simple item.

 

[Hungry1]

Well, I just loaded up 35 rounds of 30.06 with the 160 gr bullet from the Lee mold. Sized to .311 and gas checked with the Lee sizer kit, tumble lubed.

I'm using Unique because it's what I have. I loaded 5 round lots starting with 18 gr up to 24 gr.

Using the Lyman 49 and a similar bullet, I should be at roughly 1800- 2400 fps.

We'll see tomorrow.