Skilled with Various Platforms?

[MCgunner]

KISS. I stick with DA first shot, no safeties. I figure when the SHTF, I don't wanna have to think about it, just DO it. Point and squeeze, whether it's one of my revolvers, my P11, or my KP90DC. After the first shot, the P90 is a little different, but it has a wonderful trigger transition from DA to SA and I've shot it so much in competitions that I'm one with it. There were other reasons, but I've rid myself of 1911s.

 

[David E]

Flipping a safety on inadvertently during the draw can be a serious problem.

Again, no one is suggesting mixing up opposing platforms on a daily basis, so it's pointless to pursue that idea.

Total round count alone does not equal mastery of a given platform. If you fired 200,000 rounds thru a given gun model, how much did you improve from 190,000 to 200,000? Or even those last 50-100,000 rounds?

Some folks have their "skills" peak at 100 rounds because their technique is poor and they don't think it's necessary to seek out quality instruction.

As often happens, people are getting caught up in words like "mastery" and "proficiency." I like to define these things, but then folks get caught up in the definitions offered.

I mean you're able to instantly operate any given platform correctly, safely and competently.

For example, YouTube has videos of a guy discussing snubbies, but the opening sequence shows him taking 4 seconds per shot because he hasn't mastered basic DA shooting. That guy doesn't know enough about them to discuss them intelligently.

Or someone shooting a Sig 226, but doesn't decock the gun before holstering it.

Friend of mine bragged he didn't need to practice with his BHP, as he was already good enough to "cut a man in 1/2" with it. When I got him to the range, he didn't know which was the mag release, slide stop or safety.

BIL keeps a Beretta 92 loaded for home defense, but hasn't solved the DA issue, even tho it's a pretty nice pull.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Friend of mine bragged he didn't need to practice with his BHP, as he was already good enough to "cut a man in 1/2" with it. When I got him to the range, he didn't know which was the mag release, slide stop or safety

God that kind of stuff scares me. I can't believe it when I see someone shooting who clearly has no idea how to operate their own gun. I had to stop shooting with a couple I know who are like that. Money to buy toys, but no drive to learn how to use them. As a result they are unsafe, and I can't shoot worth a darn when they are around, beecause I'm too busy worrying about what they are doing.

 

[murf]

yup,

a gun is always loaded all the time. if more people would get that etched into the back of their eyeballs, the shooting world would be a much safer and more fun place.

murf

 

[TestPilot]

There is no duty to learn all type of firearms, nor there is a need.

If someone is getting torn apart by a Glock shooter, I doubt that guy is going to say "Ha ha! But, you're not skilled with a DA/SA!" as he is hitting the ground with 10~17 holes in his body.


Also, a gun is not a "platform." YOU are the platform. That is why we say "shooting platform."

F15 or AH64 is a platform. M61 on F15 or the chain gun on AH64 os NOT a platform.

 

[Ed Ames]

Also, a gun is not a "platform." YOU are the platform. That is why we say "shooting platform."

"Flat tax" is a platform.

Windows is a platform.

A table supporting a dancer is a platform.

A raised shoe is a platform.

A raised structure along a railroad track to allow passengers to embark and debark is a platform.

I am not any of those things. I am NOT a platform. But I do shoot.

A gun is actually fairly similar to Windows though.

 

[David E]

Testpilot, perhaps you need to reread the OP

No one said there is a "duty."

And if it's not "necessary" to learn the various platforms, then it's at least prudent to learn and become proficient in the platforms YOU own. If you only own one type if gun, then you should master that one.

And stop getting caught up in word choices. If it helps, think of the various gun types as "bullet launching platforms...."

 

[CraigC]

A gun is actually fairly similar to Windows though.

Good Lord, I wouldn't keep any gun I thought was similar to Windows!!!

 

[Ed Ames]

Thought someone would like that.

A computing platform (e.g. Windows) allows an operator to load software and do work, utilizing the features provided by the platform.

A gun allows an operator to load ammunition and punch holes, utilizing the features provided by the gun.

OK, I'm reaching....

 

[AFDavis11]

I would prefer to settle on one gun, or type, and stick with it, as the best for me. I seem to be too fickle about it. Whether it was years of military training or starting out with a revolver, but generally, I find the idea of trying to learn to shoot with different platforms a little silly. They are all far too easy to shoot. Somebody doesn't find it easy and natural, that's really a personal problem.

The only thing I liked, but refused to train on was a Glock. Stupidest concept of a safety location and a terrible point of aim. I shoot circles around most guys with it, it's a great gun. But, I'd never carry one, so it's off the list. Would I spend time training with it. No. Why bother? Might I compete with one. Maybe. It'd be easy to shoot circles around most guys with it at a comp, but if I'm not going to carry it, why bother? I'd probably be able to practice with it just enough to make me start shooting low with a 1911. That'd be a really bad thing.

If I chose to carry a SAA style gun, I'd have to train a lot with it. So, I can easily follow the idea that if you've used one a lot, it's what you'd want to carry.

I also think life is too short to be bullied around by forum posters. Just learn to accept that there are different perspectives, usually perspectives that can out shoot you with any gun.

 

[David E]

If you can go to a competition, borrow a Glock and beat most folks, you need to find a bigger puddle to compete in.

As has been mentioned several times, this thread is ASKING if folks have thought about mastering the various platforms. ("Mastering" meaning very proficient so that the idiosyncrasies of a given platform don't require thought and reflection to "make it go")

BIL was cited as an example in Post #1, whereas he owns two three types of handguns, but won't spend any time with them to improve/gain skill on them, even tho one is kept loaded for home defense.

 

[Jakemedic]

a creature of habit

I only shoot handguns without extra safeties. My Glocks, Sigs, and wheel guns all can be shot without remembering where the safety is. In a stressful situation, one reverts to the training and experiences that they bring to the table.

I would love to own a 1911. But it would take me forever to master the safety of a cocked and locked firearm. Eventually, I will own one, but it will take many years for me to be comfortable carrying it for protection of myself and my family.

Let's hope we never need our firearm during a stressful moment in time, but if I did, I want something I can point and shoot with confidence and effectiveness.

Be safe out there......

 

[mavracer]

And if it's not "necessary" to learn the various platforms, then it's at least prudent to learn and become proficient in the platforms YOU own. If you only own one type if gun, then you should master that one.

If you can go to a competition, borrow a Glock and beat most folks, you need to find a bigger puddle to compete in.

There are Billions of small fish in the ocean.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

If you can go to a competition, borrow a Glock and beat most folks, you need to find a bigger puddle to compete in.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[tomrkba]

Sure there are, but no one is suggesting using a cocked and locked 1911 one day, a snub 642 the next, a Glock 19 the next day followed by a Smith & Wesson 3913, followed by a Ruger Vaquero, then an HK P-7 and wrapping up the week with a P-08 Luger.

I'm subscribed to threads on other forums where people change handguns as described above.

All I can say is that people are going to do what they're going to do. What makes sense to one person is insanity to another.

Good Lord, I wouldn't keep any gun I thought was similar to Windows!!!

Just think: the government wants to saddle us with "smart gun" technology. Cock the hammer and your gun will reboot!

I would prefer to settle on one gun, or type, and stick with it, as the best for me. I seem to be too fickle about it. Whether it was years of military training or starting out with a revolver, but generally, I find the idea of trying to learn to shoot with different platforms a little silly. They are all far too easy to shoot. Somebody doesn't find it easy and natural, that's really a personal problem.

I've been trying to get a coworker to attend a defensive handgun course course for over a year. He's had a pistol for a year and a half. I get the impression that he's reasonably happy with his shooting performance at this time, but he is planning upon attending training this summer. Getting to this point has been about as popular as pulling teeth.

I think there is a large difference between what proficient shooters and many handgun shooters are trying to do. Proficient shooters are looking to shave off time between shots, get tighter groups, reload faster and so forth. The average shooter at my local ranges struggle to keep all shots on the target, or to move past one shot per three seconds, at 21 feet. Yet, despite this lower level of performance (or no performance if that little old lady hasn't gone to the range in 20 years), they manage to take care of business in a real life encounter. Sometimes I think we forget these differences in expectations.

 

[huntsman]

^When one chooses a handgun for SD logic would dictate some level of familiarity at the least, doesn't always happen and that doesn't always lead to disaster either.

Is Being proficient with various platforms a hallmark of skill and gun knowledge? I guess that depends a lot on the person, but I believe those who have used a gun to protect themselves(either in war or SD) are what I'd consider proficient even if they can only use one platform.

 

[David E]

I would suggest that trying to shave 1/10ths of seconds off relates more to pursuit of mastery than mere proficiency.

So let's define it:

Being able to pick up a gun in any reasonable condition (no simulated jams) loading it (mag or speedloader filled) and making it safe to carry.

Semi-autos: 4 seconds

DA Revolvers: 6 seconds

SA revolvers: 9 seconds (can be adjusted if spent casings are present)

THEN

From low ready, at signal, fire 6 shots from the gun's ready condition (ie; hammer down on a Beretta 92) on a 5 yd paper plate in 5 seconds.

IE; you go to a table that has a gun (type unknown) covered up. At signal, retrieve gun and load it. If a semi, decock or safety on.

Or, you find a Security Six that has 6 spent cases in it with a charged Comp II speedloader next to it. Open cylinder (it presses IN, remember!) eject spent casings, load and close cylinder.

Next time, it might be a Colt Detective Special, etc.

I submit that you should be able to make the times with the guns YOU own.

(Here's where folks bash and criticize my suggested definition, but don't offer anything of their own...)

 

[mavracer]

I submit that you should be able to make the times with the guns YOU own.

(Here's where folks bash and criticize my suggested definition, but don't offer anything of their own...)

What makes you the supreme athority over others and what they should or shouldn't be able to do?

Expressing your opinion to others is one thing, imposing it is a whole nuther matter.

 

[David E]

What makes you the supreme athority over others and what they should or shouldn't be able to do?

Expressing your opinion to others is one thing, imposing it is a whole nuther matter.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

The very FIRST response did exactly what I predicted.



Of course, I never asserted myself as a supreme authority over anything. I merely offered a SUGGESTED definition of proficiency. Feel free to offer your own.

And I don't see how it's possible to impose anything on anyone via a computer screen.

But don't let those facts sway your bashing, tho.

 

[Ed Ames]

So let's define it:

Being able to pick up a gun in any reasonable condition (no simulated jams) loading it (mag or speedloader filled) and making it safe to carry.

I agree that's important, and my desire to do that competently with a broad variety of guns has been a driver for many of my purchases. However, I think there is a test that comes first:

Being able to pick up the gun in unknown condition, clear it, and put it down in it the most visibly safe condition possible (slide locked back on a semi-auto, cylinder removed from a single action revolver, etc). Safely (without sweeping anyone with the muzzle, etc) and within 10 seconds.

This is the scenario of being at a public range, half way through your shooting, when a cease fire warning comes over the PA.


As for your proposed timing:

Semi-autos: 4 seconds

Sure why not.

DA Revolvers: 6 seconds

This is needlessly fast for any use I have for a DA revolver. I have no idea if I meet that standard because revolvers to me are mainly range guns.

SA revolvers: 9 seconds (can be adjusted if spent casings are present)

I have no idea if this is valid for how these guns are used.

I would adjust my terminology to specify loading gate vs simultaneous extraction because I have double action revolvers with loading gates (e.g. Nagant) and single action revolvers that extract all when opened (e.g. a top break S&W 1-1/2).

THEN

From low ready, at signal, fire 6 shots from the gun's ready condition (ie; hammer down on a Beretta 92) on a 5 yd paper plate in 5 seconds.

That is reasonable for a self defense gun and I don't think I own any guns (including an NAA mini revolver) I couldn't beat that time with. However, proficiency with a 6" barrel .44 magnum or the like to me means paper plate at at least 25 yards, and probably 50. It is a hunting gun after all. I don't think most hunters can get within 5 yards of game.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I don't think most hunters can get within 5 yards of game.

Probably only a hunting ninja, and then just use a sword! Although, I find the idea of a ninja sneaking up all close to game, only to blow it away with a .44 an appealing and hilarious image.

Sounds like a Homer Simpson moment to me.

 

[David E]

Ed, I appreciate the feedback.

Loading gate vs simultaneous extraction work, but I am just trying to cover the most common action types.

It takes most basically skilled folks about 3-4 seconds to reload with a speedloader. The other 2-3 seconds are pretty generous to open the cylinder to eject empties.

I'm open to increasing the SA time, but not by much.

The shooting piece is geared towards defense. 5 seconds for 6 shots out of the .44 will show if one can properly manage recoil.

I think that if you own these types of guns, you should be able to make the times. My BIL would have trouble with all but the Glock.

I didn't get within 5 yds of a deer, but he got within 5 yds of me! Didn't have a .44, so used the .308.

 

[CWL]

I would love to own a 1911. But it would take me forever to master the safety of a cocked and locked firearm. Eventually, I will own one, but it will take many years for me to be comfortable carrying it for protection of myself and my family.

Did you ever have to "remember" to put your finger inside the trigger guard and on the trigger when you want to shoot? Have you ever taken a shot, only to be embarrassed that you forgot to press the trigger?

If not, then how hard do you think it is to place your thumb on the thumb-safety every time you are presenting a M1911? It is located in the same position as the slide release on a Glock (and many other pistols), which is exactly where I place my thumb when shooting a Glock. Muscle memory does it all.

It's only as hard as you want to make it.

 

[Ed Ames]

I get that the proficiency you are measuring is self defense, I just don't think that's always the correct standard.

A friend of mine has an 8" barrel .460S&W revolver. There is no way he could get off 6 shots in 5 seconds with it (it's a 5-shot), especially with full power loads. He would probably never shoot it at 5 yards anyway. Is it really valid to measure his proficiency with that gun using metrics designed for self defense? No. He has different guns for different jobs.

On that note, I lied about the NAA. I could do 5 shots in under 5 seconds with it, not six.

Anyway, I think the guy who can load a single shot flintlock, walk 10 paces, turn, and hit a torso in profile from 20 paces, damned quick, is proficient with that weapon regardless of how long it takes him to hit a paper plate five times.

 

[jmorris]

Quote:
If you can go to a competition, borrow a Glock and beat most folks, you need to find a bigger puddle to compete in.

While not borrowed I have won division champion at more than a few regional and State matches with a glock, in SSP and ESP.

It has been done by others in USPSA too.