Slightly Wigly Arbor

[Mictlanero]

So I am new to this, and have not yet shot any of the several cap and ball revolvers I have acquired over the last couple of years.

Finally I have acquired all cleaning and maintenance supplies and tonight decided to do a complete tear down/degreasing/cleaning of my oldest revolver to get it ready to shoot.

I prepared by watching many youtube videos - especially by Duelist on how to do it. The oldest one i have is Pietta 1861 - 2012. I love the history behind this (even though it is 1/2 inch too long) and am excited to shoot it.

I took it out of the case and to my horror noticed that the barrel wiggled ever so slightly - I had never noticed this before so I am pretty disturbed by it. At first i was a bit angered by this, but oh well - i easily worked up the courage to tear it down to the last screw and see how it worked and clean it.

I looked at some threads on this issue and it looks like a big one to fix - worst case scenario: I have a bunch of (clean) parts, a barrel, and steel grip assembly that i could use for my pair of 1851 Hickoks -- best case scenario: I will use this as an opportunity to really learn how the various parts work and be able to adjust/fix the arbor issue.

I noticed that there are zero burrs inside, along the hammer slot, hand slot, and that all the moving parts seem very smooth - including the screw pins. All the parts are degreased and ballistolled.

So should I save as parts, put everything back together, or try to fix the arbor!?

 

[BCRider]

Ideally such threads should have been a slight interference fit so that there's no play in them and the arbor doesn't need to be fully tightened. But life is seldom ideal.

What I'd do is completely degrease the threads on the arbor and frame. Then put the arbor back into the frame with no other parts for now. Fit the cylinder and then the barrel and do the arbor nose material addition mod to get the length set so the wedge works like it's supposed to work. namely the wedge should press only on the rear of the barrel slot and only on the front of the arbor slot to drive the front end of the arbor solidly against the end of the barrel hole. At the point it does so the cylinder gap should be spot on. I would also check that the barrel and arbor all line up with the center line of the frame. Hopefully your check shows that all is well.

Once you've got this set by whatever means then pull off the barrel and cylinder. Then puddle some Loctite stud and bearing mount liquid at the base of the arbor to frame joint. Wiggle the loose threads vigorously and even turn the arbor in and out to spread the Loctite fully through the thread. Then before it solidifies clean away the excess and re-assemble the cylinder, barrel and wedge it snugly. At this point hang the gun from the receiver so it hangs vertical so that side loads don't shift things at all. After the Loctite cures you should have a solid gun which is straight. And there's no need for the lock pin since the Loctite will hold it really solidly. The yellow Stud and Bearing Mount is tough stuff.

The point of this is to avoid the threads lifting and thumping home with ever shot. It's amazing what can happen when you even let it build up a little momentum instead of holding things solidly.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Good post BC!
I just got finished tellin folks on another forum to " keep um tight and keep um new!!". I was talkin about the whole gun but, the root of all open tops is . . . . tbe arbor!!

45 Dragoon

 

[BCRider]

Thanks.

If it were ME with such a gun and if I really liked it then I'd likely look at making up a new arbor on my lathe so I could single point cut the threads to produce that slight interference fit I mentioned.

But not everyone has a lathe and the ability to heat treat the arbor after it's made. So the Loctite seems like the best alternative for those without a machine shop.

If anyone else has any ideas on how to solidly fix the arbor in the hole we might end up with a few options.

I suppose bedding it with a good epoxy or something like Acraglass would also work. But that stuff is far more messy in many ways.

 

[kituwa]

I fixed one by removing the arbor,degreased it and installed with JB weld. Then i drilled a hole in the end of the arbour/frame so that half the hole was in the arbor and half in the frame.Then taped the hole and used a set screw. This was a brass frame gun that i also installed a steel ring in the recoil shield. I have shot many 30 grain loads of triple 7 in and it is all still tight as a drum.

 

[BCRider]

That's good feedback for the epoxy option. Thanks.

 

[Old Fuff]

I suppose bedding it with a good epoxy or something like Acraglass would also work.

I have found it works well, because if they're any voids or space between the threaded parts the epoxy will fill it. But be careful to get it right, because if you don't you may not get a second chance.

Brownells (www.Brownells.com) sell a release compound that can be applied to the metal around the threads where you don't want the epoxy to bond. Makes clean-up easier and prevents serious mistakes. Use it liberally where you don't want a metal-to-metal bond.

 

[Mictlanero]

Thanks - I am looking into fixing it - in the meantime I already cannibalized the peacemaker style iron grip assembly to make my Hickok '51 into a London

 

[BHP FAN]

You could sweat some braze in there....or could use some red bottle Lock-tite, you could peen around it three or four times with a center-punch, or...you could just get Remington.

 

[BCRider]

Peening around it wouldn't work. The shock of shooting would peen the peens back out.

The real issue with a loose thread that wiggles is the way it'll beat itself up. The best way to fix a wiggly thread is to fill ALL the voids so it can't wiggle.

For a serious fix one idea would be to put the frame, arbor and barrel all together so it's all tensioned up correctly. Ideally the cylinder would be in but you would not have the hammer on or any of the other internals. Oh, I almost forgot that you want to flush out he threads with brake cleaner so it's raw metal with no sign of oil at all.

Now run off to a local hobby shop that caters to model airplanes, plastic models or model railroad stuff. You want to buy a small bottle of the thin water like CA glue. You'll put a drop or two on the exposed end in the slot where the hammer normally lives. You'll then quickly wiggle it to encourage the CA to wick down deeply as possible into the threads before it kicks off. After a couple of minutes you can take the barrel and cylinder off and put a drop around the joint on the recoil shield and let it wick into whatever is left. But if it's very loose then it'll have filled and hardened and the front treatment won't accept any more. In any event wipe away any excess on both ends with a dab of paper towel.

This thin CA is going to be harder and tougher than the Loctite stud and bearing mount. But the idea is that it wicks in so well and loves metal so much that if you degrease and flush out the oil then blow out the cleaner and let it fully dry so you can't smell any fumes then the thin CA will lock the arbor in place almost for good.

If for some reason it has to come out at some point you'll need to heat up the metal to a little over 300F and then the CA glue melts. And that's about the only way you'll get it apart. So be SURE you want it where it is before you do this trick.

 

[BHP FAN]

How about drilling and tapping a keeper screw alongside of the arbor?

 

[J-Bar]

Peening around it wouldn't work. The shock of shooting would peen the peens back out.

The real issue with a loose thread that wiggles is the way it'll beat itself up. The best way to fix a wiggly thread is to fill ALL the voids so it can't wiggle.

For a serious fix one idea would be to put the frame, arbor and barrel all together so it's all tensioned up correctly. Ideally the cylinder would be in but you would not have the hammer on or any of the other internals. Oh, I almost forgot that you want to flush out he threads with brake cleaner so it's raw metal with no sign of oil at all.

Now run off to a local hobby shop that caters to model airplanes, plastic models or model railroad stuff. You want to buy a small bottle of the thin water like CA glue. You'll put a drop or two on the exposed end in the slot where the hammer normally lives. You'll then quickly wiggle it to encourage the CA to wick down deeply as possible into the threads before it kicks off. After a couple of minutes you can take the barrel and cylinder off and put a drop around the joint on the recoil shield and let it wick into whatever is left. But if it's very loose then it'll have filled and hardened and the front treatment won't accept any more. In any event wipe away any excess on both ends with a dab of paper towel.

This thin CA is going to be harder and tougher than the Loctite stud and bearing mount. But the idea is that it wicks in so well and loves metal so much that if you degrease and flush out the oil then blow out the cleaner and let it fully dry so you can't smell any fumes then the thin CA will lock the arbor in place almost for good.

If for some reason it has to come out at some point you'll need to heat up the metal to a little over 300F and then the CA glue melts. And that's about the only way you'll get it apart. So be SURE you want it where it is before you do this trick.

"Water-like CA glue..." you mean a cyanoacrylate glue? Like "Super Glue"?

I would not have guessed that Super Glue would hold metal that well. If you mean a particular brand name of CA glue, please post the exact name/manufacturer so I don't screw things up. Or send me a PM.

Thanks.

 

[BCRider]

I've never bought the nationally acclaimed "Super Glue" so I don't know which viscosity rating it has. I buy my CA glue from a proper hobby shop that caters to RC model airplanes. They've got three boxes of bottles that come in thin, medium and thick viscosities. The thin one is literally like water, the medium like thin pancake syrup and the thick is like carpenter's glue.


It works like heck in metals provided the surfaces are free of any oil. Hence my suggestion to really soak the threads out and blow out the threads with compressed air (actually I missed putting in that last bit until now ).

Past experience with the thin CA on locking nuts to threads showed that I could twist apart a 10-32 bolt before the CA'd nut would come loose. And a 1/4 inch nut on a clean threaded rod holds well enough that you can consider it as welded to all but the strongest use. The rod spun in the aluminium soft jaws despite being held in tightly and me pulling strongly on the wrench. That good enough?


Unless the bottle says "thin" on it don't try using it to wick in. Home Depot and others sell CA glues. But I've never seen the water like thin formula in such places. Track down a proper hobby shop that caters to RC flying, RC boats, RC cars or model railroading. That's where you'll find the proper stuff.

 

[Mictlanero]

thanks for these ideas - i appreciate the help. Interesting idea about the CA glue - i use the thick one often for modelling projects - making a miniature old west town with my kids for a game. I will try to get some of the thin CA.

As I understand it, prior to unscrewing out the arbor, there is the issue of drilling out the pin out of the frame that connects with the arbor. I don't have a drill press, but I do have drills and bits for metal. It seems I have to restrain the frame without scratching it - in like a vice - and then drilling out the pin like a bad tooth.

I read that some recommend hitting the end of the pin in a couple of times - perhaps i am thinking i will do this before drilling out the pin - have you ever had success doing this? Or peening the metal around the arbor on the frame a bit?

Then, as i understand it, i degrease both the arbor and frame like crazy, then either use the thin CA glue or red locktite and screw the arbor back into position, clean up excess glue, install barrel and wedge to ensure proper fit (or no), then dry in an upright position.

Sounds kind of doable - except how do I unscrew the Arbor? What type of tool do I need to do that without destroying it? As I said, I have access to drills an bits for metal, but no drill press on anything like that.

 

[BCRider]

Peening is localized so it won't lock the threads together in a way that ensures a full load bearing contact throughout the threaded connection. And being such a small area where the peening is done the shock of recoil will quickly loosen up the peens.

Instead what we want for proper durability is a full contact all along the thread to spread out the recoil loads so the metal won't be deformed by the shock loads.

Thus the need for an interference fit in the first place or a thread locker such as Loctite, epoxy or the thin CA glue options as an alternative.

The magic of the thin CA glue option for "welding" the arbor into the frame is that we don't need to take the arbor out of the frame provided we can ensure a proper degreasing inside the threaded joint. And that's where repeated soakings with brake cleaner followed by blasting the cleaner along with any dissolved oil comes into play. If we can thin then blast out the cleaner along with the oil comtamination often enough that we're sure it's dry metal in the threading then the CA glue will wick into the thread and hold well. As I've mentioned with my testing and own use I didn't screw the nuts down over the glue. I put the nuts in place then applied the thin CA to the joint and watched as the glue wicked down and formed a wetness on the other side of the nut. This stuff really soaks in well.

When used on balsa wood I've had the thin stuff wick along a grain capillary tube and surface to glue my fingers to the wood up to 3/4 inch away. So it DOES like to travel down tiny places. Thus my faith in the glue's ability to wick down fully through any sort of wiggly thread.

It's easy enough to test this for yourselves. Pick up a little bottle from a local hobby shop and use it to lock a 1/4 inch nut to a bolt after cleaning away any oil. I'm pretty confident that you'll agree with my faith in this stuff.

A little note.... if you get to the store and find the display boxes of the CA glue are sitting somewhere in direct sunlight and the bottle is warm when you hold it move on to another shop. Sunlight and heat is hell on the CA glue and the bottles of glue very definitely have a "shelf life". When you're done with your own glue cap it and store it in the beer fridge or freezer. When you take it out allow it to warm fully to room temperatue before you uncap it again. Stored this way it stays good for many years.

 

[kituwa]

You cant just screw out the arbor. It has a small pin holding it in that has to be removed first. You cant just drive that small pin out because it is a blind hole. Someone else here may know a trick to remove that pin easier but i usually drill another hole beside it till i can get a hold in it good enough with a needle nose plier. Then you will need to drill that hole out larger for a new bigger pin to put it back together. That is why i like to thread the new hole and use a set screw to put it back together. CA glue is great stuff like has been said. The cheap small bottles you get at Walmart are not real good though. Like said, get the stuff from a hobby store or at a good hardware you can find Loctite 420 i think it is, not reg. loctite super glue. CA glues do not like heat after it is applied either but i dont think it would get a lot of heat on the arbor but not sure. Also, if you use JB weld, the reg. stuff is much stronger than the quick set JB weld. They call the quick set JB Kwik. On a steel frame gun the arbor more than likely loosened because it had a short arbor and when you put the wedge in it puts a downward bind on it. So after you fix the arbor you need to check that out. When you have the arbor removed would be a great time to drill and tap the end of it for another set screw so you can address that.

 

[BCRider]

The one on my '51 brass framed Navy used a set screw pin. So removing that one wasn't an issue. And at least a few here have been able to remove their arbors so they either fought their way in or have set screw "pins" like I do.

If there's a lot of other wiggly arbor guns out there with blind pins it makes my idea of using CA glue to lock them into place all the more valid from where I'm sitting and typing.

Unless, of course, anyone can offer an explanation of why the arbor SHOULD be loose a little.

I can't imagine why there would be one though. Any looseness is going to see the threads being beaten and loosening to a greater degree over time. So I'm thinking that ensuring that the arbor is pulled or otherwise held in correct alignment and then locking the threads with a wicking agent that cures hard is going to be a good thing.

 

[Mictlanero]

I do like the idea of using the thin CA - especially since it would mean not having to ream out the arbor pin from the back of the frame, and not having to unscrew the arbor. A couple of things with that idea - i wonder how hot the arbor/frame would get - that glue becomes brittle if exposed to too high heat - and is toxic smoke when burned - i think i read someone mention it does not get that hot to be a problem.

Also, BC Rider, I don't have access to a special tool to blow out the arbor/frame after degreasing - can i use compressed electronics cleaner spay or similar product?

 

[kituwa]

Actually you can use carborator cleaner in a spray can. It is a degreaser also.

 

[BCRider]

The "air in a can" stuff used for electronics should work just fine. The idea is to use some compressed air of some sort to blow out he solvent along with the traces of oil. One can also simply be patient and after they are sure that the oils have been flushed away sit the frame and arbor down and let it evaporate naturally for overnight.

Dunking and draining repeatedly in something like a little pot of lacquer thinner would also work out just as well. Work that wiggle while dunked in the solvent to work out the oils.

Carb cleaner is more expensive, but yes, it's also an excellent degreaser.

With the aerosols pool up a bunch around the recoil shield then work the wiggly arbor to work at pumping the solvent down into the threads and out the rear opening in the hammer slot. We only get one shot at this so using up a good 1/4 to 1/3 of a can so you're SURE it's clean and oil free is better than trying to be cheap with the stuff.

And trust me, if the area gets hot enough to cause trouble for the CA glue then LONG before that you will have dropped the gun because it was WAY too hot to hold. It needs to get up to something like 300F before the glue loses stability. This is a frequent discussion on the model airplane forums since lots of folks find that it gets places they don't want it to go and now they need to remove it.

There's also a CA glue debonder for any that dribbles out the other end. But if you apply about 3 to 4 drops worth the surface tension should prevent it dribbling out the other end of the hole.

It will kick off FAST when it gets into the oxygen blocked inner threading. So be sure it's sitting right. If you think you have time to dribble the glue into the threads then set the bottle down and then wiggle things a little to aid with spreading out the glue then you are mistaken. The glue will begin to kick hard about half way through you reaching to put the bottle down. It'll flow in then ZAP!. All you'll have is some slight wetness around the outer ends where the glue is still exposed to the air. And often that will be kicked off by the curing of the deeper glue if you didn't use too gross an excess amount.

All of this is why I'm so adamant that you understand the need to have the arbor supported perfectly by the barrel with the wedge driven to the right position for setting the cylinder gap and everything else being "just right". There's no second chance with this stuff any more than there's a second chance with welding.

As I mentioned earlier a practice run with a clean and dry nut on a clean and dry bolt will serve as a great way to practice before you have a go at the arbor. It'll also boost your confidence in the method so you know I'm not stringing anyone along. It'll also strongly punctuate the need for the timing.

Practicing like this on a similar size 1/4 to 5/16 bolt and nut will also give you a better idea of just how much glue is needed so it fills the thread without any excess running down the bolt or arbor.

The glue doesn't do well if the surfaces are moving. So if you're REALLY quick you can set the bottle down and wiggle the nut before it kicks. But you'll also find that the resulting lock isn't as effective. Far better to leave it for about 30 seconds so you're sure. Likely you'll see signs of the excess glue around the edges that isn't going to cure. Simply wipe it away. Or if you get the amount spot on you might see a little bit of white smoke come off the joint when the glue kicks off. Just don't get that smoke in your eyes. It's like tear gas! You'll run around with your eyes stinging like hell for a few minutes and cursing me something fierce...

And fair warning. While I have the utmost confidence in the thin CA glue method thanks to the other times I've used this same trick I have not done a brassie or other C&B gun arbor at this time. I've used all the tricks I've mentioned up to now for cleaning and gluing but only in other applications. Which is why I'm explaining the whys and reasoning for each step of the process.

This is also why I'm urging that you try the cleaning and gluing on a spare bolt and nut or two so you can become believers on your own before you glue your gun together.

 

[kituwa]

You could also talk to 45 Dragoon here on THR about fixing it for you. I am sure he can fix the arbor problem and also do some of his other tricks to your gun and then you will have a real gun! Sounds like his prices are VERY good also.

 

[BCRider]

Just a thought but Loctite sells a kit called "Form-A-Thread" or something similar. It's not much good for a lot of cases but for bushing a loose thread it might be just the ticket.

Basically it's a kit with epoxy and a release agent. It may have some sort of cleaner in it as well. It's intended for fixing slightly stripped threading where there's not a high load on the threads. So for this sort of use on technically GOOD threads that simply need a little tightening up it might just be a first class option.

But it's not a wick into place sort of deal. It requires the arbor to be removed so the arbor can be treated with the release agent and the threads in the frame cleaned and prep'ed for buttering in the epoxy.