Small Belted Military Magnum?

[25cschaefer]

I found this odd case while working a landscaping gig out in Cokedale, CO. The town is very close to Trinidad, CO so it could be some wildcat of a military cartridge as P.O. Akley and the boys down at the school were cooking up some crazy stuff back in the day.

I don't have my calipers so bare with me.

It has a Lake City '43 head stamp, a rim diameter approximately the same as a 30-06, it has a belt, radiused shoulder, a long neck, and appears to be of the .25 or maybe .22 caliber persuasion.

.270 Win, mystery, 8mm Mauser


Length comparison


Head stamp/rim diameter


Belt


Shoulder and neck compared to the .270


.270 and mystery


22lr fits in the neck with a little slop. Notice the crack.

 

[Jim K]

Interesting. There are a couple of puzzling things about that case that lead me to think it might not be for a conventional rifle at all. The Army used zillions of odd-wad ammo, for everything from mortar igniters to aircraft engine starter cartridges. That one does not ring any bells with me, but perhaps someone else will identify it.

FWIW, belts are usually used for cartridge support/headspace in a rimless cartridge when the shoulder is too small or shallow for that purpose; in other words the belt takes the place of the rim. But that case seems to have an adequate shoulder so perhaps the belt was to prevent it from being used in a rifle, which could possibly be dangerous.

Jim

 

[Kp321]

Looks like a 240 Weatherby. It is a belted round that has the same head size as 30-06 but the body has a reduced diameter. Dies are available to form the cases ,with much difficulty, from 30-06.

 

[Robert]

It does indeed look like a 240 Weatherby. But why go through the hassel of using 25+ year old brass to form a round? Unless they were super expensive when they came out in 1968 and there were still tons and tons of surplus 06.

 

[25cschaefer]

How would you form the belt; it seems like it would crack. That is what really intrigued me at first, I had never seen a belted bottle neck military cartridge before. I was thinking it may had been from some ammo we made for someone else.

I just measured the case with a ruler and it is about 2 3/8" the Weatherby is listed at 2.496, even with the ridiculously long neck on this shell, it comes up 1/8" short.

I does look very close though and as soon as I have my calipers back, we will know.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Very strange indeed. Especially the time that the headstamp represents

 

[Mobuck]

IIRC There was a set of dies that swaged a belt on the 30/06 cases and formed them to use in 224 Wby. Why they went to that much effort? 06 cases were virtually free and time spent at the bench cost little. Guys didn't make $300/day back then so brass costing 50 cents per was out of their budget. I've formed a lot of cases for 308 Norma, 257 Wby, and 6.5x55 from what I had in a box under the bench but current prices of form dies kind of makes it non cost effective.

 

[Jim Watson]

P.O. Ackley had a line of cartridges based on .30-06 with belt swaged on. It was a lot of work for no real improvement in the shooting.

There was also a British round, the .240 Apex, of about the same dimensions. CotW says it's case length is 2.38" so that may be what you have found.

They had all pretty well died out before the .240 Weatherby came along.
I find it hard to imagine somebody extravagant enough to buy a Weatherby and then cheap enough to put in the labor to form brass to save a buck. But it happens, too many Weatherbys with Tasco scopes around to deny the type.

 

[303tom]

What ever it is, it was made in the U.S. Lake City Ordnance Plant, Independence, Missouri in 1943, none of the .224, .240, .257, .264 Weatherbys were built yet. How long is it ?

 

[Jim Watson]

I wouldn't use wartime surplus brass for a laborious reforming job, either, but there was the cheapskate argument.

Rocky Gibbs would recommend brass for his line of wildcats. I think he liked military match in general but had specific headstamps that he preferred.

 

[powell&hyde]

Very interesting, when you get your calipers keep us updated as the head-stamp does show that it was from a batch made for 1943. But as 303tom said, none of the smaller weatherby's were built at that time.

 

[25cschaefer]

Jim - I was able to find a picture of a 240 Apex and it does have a goofy long neck and radiused shoulders on it, it was made by H&H.

 

[rcmodel]

Use a strong light and look inside it for an inside step where the belt ends.
If you can see one, it was case formed in a die, then fire formed in a rifle from an empty 30-06 case by somebody, as the old GI crimp is still evident from the GI 30-06 brass it was made from..


The missing primer would seem to indicate an overload & blown primer too.

Anyway, whatever it is was not made by Lake City Arsenal in 1943.
They didn't have the time, manpower, or extra machinery for such foolishness that year, and for a few years afterword.

rc

 

[25cschaefer]

Sorry for the delayed update; school has kept me busy for the most part but I have done some research.

The measurements are:
Dia. above belt - .449
Dia. of shoulder - .441
OD of neck - .275
ID of neck - .229 (at the smallest point, it varied up to .003)
Length to shoulder - 1.747
OAL - 2.324
Neck length - .454

The Weatherby and Apex are ruled out on length (the Apex is a full length 30-06 with a swagged belt and necked down).

I was reading P.O. Ackley's Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders and came across the .228 Belted Express, it was formed by swagging a belt on a 30-06 and shot a .227 bullet. it is the exact same length to the shoulder an has about the same angle but it is not radiused. However, the neck of the mystery case is wavy, it has an irregular form its whole length. Which leads me to believe that the shoulder could have been malformed by the ultra high pressures. There is at least one place on the circumference of the shell where the shoulder is not radiused but normal, it meets up exactly with the picture in Ackley's book. The only glaring non conformity would be the extra long neck.

I have a theory; what if the reloader did not trim the neck to the "proper" length so he could set the bullet out farther, trying to increase the powder chamber, packed more than enough powder in and then crammed it in the shorter chamber? This would certainly lead to a blown primer, cracked case neck and irregular "bands."

FYI, Ackley reports that 45gr of 4350 will push a 75gr bullet 3660f/s (if only I could fit 50grs).

 

[4v50 Gary]

Nice find. I wonder how it would polish up?

 

[25cschaefer]

I think I will leave it as is, I started an ammo collection when I was a boy and have been thinking of getting back into it.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Apply Renaissance Wax to it then to protect it. It was developed by the British Museum, is PH neutral, and is used by museum conservators worldwide to protect metal, wood and leather. You apply a light coat, buff it in and you're good to go. Woodcraft Stores sells it.