Any one know why WIN NT would use small primers for their 45ACP loads? I was reloading and came across some WIN NT that would not work, so examined the case and found out that the primer pocket is way to small for large pistol primers.
Small primers in 45ACP?
- Thread starter Kcustom45
- Start date
- Status
Jim Watson
Member
According to a gunrag column; the lead-free priming compound Winchester (also Federal) uses has a very quick burn rate even as priming compound goes. Less mix is needed so the small primer size is adequate. Less area for the primer pocket pressure to act against reduces the risk of blown or backed out primers, so the small primer is more suitable here, too. I have read that they are crimped in but the ones I have fooled with were very lightly crimped, if at all.
It is mostly an aggravating contamination of the range brass pool. I haven't run into many (yet) and am just throwing them in a box to accumulate. When I get enough to bother with, I will load up a batch. Winchester says not to, without giving a reason, but handloaders are just natural tinkerers and I have tested some. A standard small pistol primer will give lower velocity than a standard large primer in a normal case. A magnum small pistol primer will make up some or all of the difference, or even gain velocity, depending on the powder used.
It is mostly an aggravating contamination of the range brass pool. I haven't run into many (yet) and am just throwing them in a box to accumulate. When I get enough to bother with, I will load up a batch. Winchester says not to, without giving a reason, but handloaders are just natural tinkerers and I have tested some. A standard small pistol primer will give lower velocity than a standard large primer in a normal case. A magnum small pistol primer will make up some or all of the difference, or even gain velocity, depending on the powder used.
My friend loaded a bunch of Win NT and they worked fine. He didn't chrono them, but I can't imagine it'd be too much less velocity.
I am doing the same as Jim. I figure these will be my competion loads where picking up your brass is not feasible.
I am doing the same as Jim. I figure these will be my competion loads where picking up your brass is not feasible.
Jim Watson
Member
Velocity drop IS substantial, perhaps 50 fps.
If you are loading barely Major Power Factor Loads for IPSC or IDPA, you should chronograph and adjust the load or go to magnum primers. As I recall without going looking for my notebook, small pistol magnum primers regained all the velocity loss with Bullseye, part of it with 231 and Titegroup, and actually increased velocity over large pistol standard primers with HS6 and a JHP.
If you are loading barely Major Power Factor Loads for IPSC or IDPA, you should chronograph and adjust the load or go to magnum primers. As I recall without going looking for my notebook, small pistol magnum primers regained all the velocity loss with Bullseye, part of it with 231 and Titegroup, and actually increased velocity over large pistol standard primers with HS6 and a JHP.
Master Blaster
Member
.45 GAP uses a small primer. As far as I know All .45ACP uses a large pistol primer. The winclean brass I have seen uses a larger flash hole in the case but does not use a small pistol primer.
You most likely have .45GAP (Glock Action Pistol Brass) which is also slightly shorter case than a .45ACP.
You most likely have .45GAP (Glock Action Pistol Brass) which is also slightly shorter case than a .45ACP.
Last edited:
stans
Member
The first batch of Winclean did use large primers, but the current production does indeed use small pistol size primers. I have seen a bunch of it and it is definitely 45 ACP, not 45 GAP. I have yet to see a 45 GAP cartridge or gun chambered in the GAP.
BluesBear
member
NO he doesn't have .45GAP brass. What he has is Winchester WinClean .45 ACP casings.
The original lot of WinClean brass was loaded with large non-toxic primers. The problem is that those cases used larger than normal flash holes. If this brass is reloaded there is a danger of blown primers!
Winchester stated that the larger flash hole was needed because of ignition problems with the large pistol size non-toxic primers. They subsiquently went to a small non-toxic primer which is supposedly more efficient.
The original lot of WinClean brass was loaded with large non-toxic primers. The problem is that those cases used larger than normal flash holes. If this brass is reloaded there is a danger of blown primers!
Winchester stated that the larger flash hole was needed because of ignition problems with the large pistol size non-toxic primers. They subsiquently went to a small non-toxic primer which is supposedly more efficient.
Attachments
Jim Watson
Member
Strange, the press release from Winchester said it was OK to reload original large primer large flash hole Winclean. I have loaded any that came my way with no problem.
If the bit about the rapid pressure rise from the lead free priming compound is correct, the large flash hole was not for ignition but to vent the primer flash better. Kind of like drilling out flash holes for wax bullets to keep the primer from backing out.
They do not recommend reloading the current small primer NT stuff. But don't say why. Probably because detail load specs are different and they don't want to confuse things for the cookbook reloaders.
If the bit about the rapid pressure rise from the lead free priming compound is correct, the large flash hole was not for ignition but to vent the primer flash better. Kind of like drilling out flash holes for wax bullets to keep the primer from backing out.
They do not recommend reloading the current small primer NT stuff. But don't say why. Probably because detail load specs are different and they don't want to confuse things for the cookbook reloaders.
BluesBear
member
I only fired 14 rounds of the original WinClean. When I went to reload them I noticed the flash holes were HUGE, so I set them aside. They're buried somewhere in my storage room. I'll try to dig them out this weekend.
The admonishment reguarding blown primers is strictly my own opinion. I base that opinion on the fact that those cases had flash holes as large or larger than I drill in the cases for use with my Speer plastic Target44 bullets.
The admonishment reguarding blown primers is strictly my own opinion. I base that opinion on the fact that those cases had flash holes as large or larger than I drill in the cases for use with my Speer plastic Target44 bullets.
Pumpkinheaver
Member
Too much of a headache, recycle those things so they don't get mixed with your regular brass.
Master Blaster
Member
I read in American rifleman last month about the .45GAP Crapolla having small primers. Hopefully my local commercial range wont start mixing this crapolla in with the good once fired range brass that I buy for $20 per 1,000. More junk to sort out for the poopie box.
Jim Watson
Member
Missed a @#$%^&* NT and hung up my 550 today. It took more effort on the downstroke, why, I don't know; and of course would not reprime. Gotta look closer.
All the NT I have seen had nickel plated primers.
I will load all future .45ACP with unplated primers so as to be able to tell at a glance. I'll use up my old stock plated Winchesters and a few plated Remingtons from somewhere for lost brass matches. Save the Federals for revolver ammo.
All the NT I have seen had nickel plated primers.
I will load all future .45ACP with unplated primers so as to be able to tell at a glance. I'll use up my old stock plated Winchesters and a few plated Remingtons from somewhere for lost brass matches. Save the Federals for revolver ammo.
- Status
