Smith and Wesson Internal Lock Questions.

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JB_3

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I am currently contemplating buying a Smith and Wesson 629 and or a model 66.

Upon researching these particular revolvers I read that the internal locks malfunction under high recoil. Is this true?

Do any of you have an opinion on the reliability of a modern S&W?

Thanks, JB
 
Oh no. Get ready because you are about to be inundated with responses, opinions, and a ton of comments stating new S&W are junk, and just as many stating they are great.

I'll just say that all three of my modern S&W revolvers are very accurate guns and I've had no problems with the internal lock. Awhile ago I started a tremendously unpopular and unscientific thread on this and out of a little less than 500 guns reported, there was about a 5% malfunction rate. It was a very small sample, so judge that number as you see fit.

Of all the aspects of modern S&W revolvers that concern me, the lock is pretty low on the list. None the less, you must judge for yourself, and prelock guns can be readily found.
 
Fogadaboutit!

If the locks were locking themselves in the middle of a gun fight as often as reported on the lier net?

S&W would have already been sued out of business by all the grieving widows.
But they haven't been sued even once for a lock malfunction that I know off.

If you don't want to use the lock, put the keys in the box the gun came in and don't use it.

Otherwise, don't worry about it if you can get past the hole for the key in the frame.

rc
 
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Never heard of it and I've been around S&W revolvers for over three decades.

The lockwork has been changed though from the older S&W revolvers I grew up around. There's some sort of anti-kickback lock in it. I wouldn't worry about the newer guns either.
 
Do any of you have an opinion on the reliability of a modern S&W?

Thanks, JB

It all falls under Murphy's law, which means what can go wrong will go wrong, or what will go wrong can go wrong. I've yet to hear of a Glock ever malfunctioning, but it can, and I'm sure it has. The weak link there is magazine feed. (as in all semi-automatics)

It boils down to your 'confidence level', how comfortable are you in the knowledge that your firearm may fail to protect you and your family or even get you killed because it suffered a catastrophic failure.
What you talk about is even worst then a semi-automatic jam that can be cleared if you posses the confidence and the muscle memory to react in time.

I myself am to old for chances anymore or mere luck.
Ruger man here..
 
It isn't hard to remove an internal piece or two of the lock if you are really worried.
My Scandium 329NG is one heavy recoiling gun in .44 Mag- never had it lock on me yet.
 
I'm not afraid of the mechanism failing so much as the hate of having the possibility of having something like a misplaced key take a perfectly good gun out of service.
That and the PC, Nanny State the whole lock movement stands for.
 
1)I think there can be problems, i.e. I don't think the people reporting actual problems are fibbing.

2)I think the frequency of problems is low enough to disregard. I may think about this differently than most, maybe because I have a stats degree, but I don't worry about any failure modes that are, say, less likely than one in 100K or whatever. I will probably never fire a shot in anger, and the odds I will ever fire, say, more than 20 rounds in anger are just astronomical. When you think of all the risks of a gun fight, the chance of a 1 in 100K risk surfacing on one of those 20 shots is in the noise, for me. But, risks are something people have very personal views on; everyone should do what makes them comfortable.

3)I'd prefer to not have the lock, and would even pay extra to not have it. To me, they are useless, like trigger locks. If someone steals the gun, or has a little bit of time with it, the internal or a trigger lock won't help - they will defeat the trigger lock or find a key to the internal lock or whatever. A locked container of some kind is a much better way to prevent unauthorized use.

So, bottom line: I'd prefer they didn't have the lock, but I don't think having a lock is a big deal. If I cared, there are non-locking aftermarket lock replacements.

Edited to add: the next thread I went to read was about a cracked Chiappa Rhino. We've all seen those kind of thing, or the S&W that sent the barrel flying down range or whatever. Those rare failures just aren't worth worrying about. The poster doesn't give a round count, but states he has shot it usually multiple times a week for 4 years. While a failure like that would reeeeeaaaaallly suck in the middle of a fight, the odds of it happening in a fight instead of at a practice session are very small.
 
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I had the ILS system removed and The Plug installed on my 629 Classic and 6 other S&W guns. I do not plan to buy any more with the ILS. If you already own a gun with the ILS or have few realistic alternatives to buying a new gun so equipped, consider getting The Plug to cover the key hole and to have the ILS parts removed. Hold off on that until you are sure the gun is satisfactory, because there may be some hassle from S&W, if the gun is returned for repair without the ILS in place. Stories about their reaction are inconsistent.

It is not so much an issue of reliability as it is simply resolving any concern with an unnecessary feature.
 
I removed the lock on my wifes 642-2 because I had heard "stories" of failure of the system BUT after thinking about it and weighing the pro--- cons of having it I think I may put it back in ,,,, that hole and not having a plug only invites dirt and boogers to get in and gum up the thing over time.

Plus I'm sure it voids S&W warranty if I need to send it back for one reason or another,,,,
has anyone else removed their lock and had second thoughts about it ?.

I'll bet I'm not the only one,,,,,,,,:evil:
 
I'll second every word of what Pinter said.

The lock has been reported to have malfunctioned for some folks at least once. That means it is possible. It is extremely unlikely.

It is also very simple to remove the functioning part of the lock mechanism and thus eliminate the already remote possibility of being hung up by the lock.

I have a modern 629 with around 15,000 rounds through it and I've never had a problem with the lock, either before or after I pulled the little "flag" piece out.

And the gun has been fantastic in every other way.
 
Only you can make the call. Pre-lock S&W revolvers seem to command a premium. Because there are documented instances of the ILS locking the gun while trying to fire, they're not for me. I know that the chances are extremely slim, but that's one thing I'd rather not worry about. From someone who buys 5-6 guns every year, I'll be a LOT more interested in Smiths when they stop building them with that lock.
 
I own a lightweight jframe. Recoil can be quite stiff. Havent had a problem with the lock.

I have studied the insides of how the how the lock works. It seems very unlikely to engage suddenly IMO.

But for those that are worried, I think I discovered what should be a way to disable it without removing parts and leaving unsightly holes. You could disassemble the lock, grind off the tab that interferes with hammer movement, and reassmble. The lock will look normal and even turn and pop up that stupid flag, but would not disable the gun. Now, I am not sure, but I would imagine a new part could be purchased for little money to revert back to stock (if you wanna sell the gun or something).
 
I have a 340PD. That's the extremely lightweight 357 J frame. I have had my internal lock engage under the recoil of 38 +P rounds. More than once. As it came from the factory it was a $700 gun I would not depend upon to save my life. I opened it up and removed the lock flag. I left the rest of the mechanism in place.

Once I removed its appendix its been 100%. So there's one more story from the Internet for you.
 
I've owned a couple of Smiths with the lock, but never thought much about the lock. I got them used and never even had a key for either. I also never had a problem with either of them.

I don't see why the lock is any more likely to fail than any other single part of the gun. And I don't think the "hole" is any uglier than any other pin or screw in the side of the gun. Shoot, some of the older Smith & Wessons had a pin in that exact same place.

Now if you don't like the lock "just because", that's OK with me too, but I wouldn't let it stop me from buying a gun I wanted.

That darn Model 69 is looking better to me all the time, and I've said "never again" to a 44 magnum....:banghead: :D
 
No I don't buy it.

The lock is a dangerous feature that can malfuntion at any unknown time. I do not think all the people who experienced it are lying. I belive them.

For a revolver made for self defense the dangerous disadvantages of this far from perfect "safety lock" far outweigh any safety advantages of that lock.

A defense firearm should not have anything non essential added to it's design that would make it less reliable let alone prone to bricking the gun during a fight for life encounter.

It was so much of a concern that S&W now makes a model without the lock due to the request of a police agency.

If you have doubts find one that you can take apart examine it and decide for yourself if it is something you want to keep on your revolver.

I could easily ignore these locking devices and even use them sometimes if they were almost 100 % reliable and almost never failed however that is not the case and my understanding is S&W hasn't spent a dime to address (ie that means they didn't do crap to fix it or redesign it) this problem.

From what I have read and heard these "safety locks" do not make the grade.
 
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"I don't see why the lock is any more likely to fail than any other single part of the gun."
Let us accept that statement for the sake of discussion.

A revolver with the ILS is therefor more prone to failure because of the inclusion of an additional mechanism.

It is not for me , for many reasons. No sir.
 
Ruger DAs have an internal lock too. The difference is that the key hole is not apparent and that there are no stories I know of concerning lock up due to malfunction or defect. To rule out both major players because of a lock leaves one with the price, scarcity. and variable condition and quality of older guns. One also has to be patient and buy when the guns are available. Newer guns at full retail then are for instant gratification.
 
I personally like the older pre-lock guns for no other reason than I think the lock looks out of place. I wouldn't have a problem carrying either.

My main dislike with the newer S&Ws are the MIM parts. I know all the arguments for... but I had two hammer blocks break on my Model 60-9. S&W Customer Service finally sent me one of the old style mfg parts to replace the last one and I have had no further problems. They even admitted that there had been problems with this particular part.
 

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grter said:
A defense firearm should not have anything non essential added to it's design that would make it less reliable

Waveski said:
A revolver with the ILS is therefor more prone to failure because of the inclusion of an additional mechanism.

If you buy this argument, you need to be consistent: Earlier S&Ws had their share of unnecessary features that could cause problems, too. Examples that come to mind are recessed chambers, the pinned ejector star, an adjustable trigger stop and right handed ejector rod threads. Yet, many hold these guns to be the epitome of the SD revolver.
 
Open the gun.
Remove the lock.
Plug the hole.
Simple.

Open the gun.
Remove the lock.
Plug the hole.
Hope it doesn't need to go back to S&W.

I think there is a legal vulnerability too or Trojan Horse, sort of an entrapment. If there is an incident in which locking the gun could have made a difference, a prosecutor could focus on your having removed the lock (or not used it). That concern is another reason why it is better for Smith not to include an unnecessary feature.

A gun doesn't need to be locked. It needs to be locked UP, when not on someone's person. If a gun owner does not have at least a relatively secure lockbox or a gun safe for multiple guns, he should buy one.
 
The lock -- or any lock -- is just a feature. If it wasn't for the political overtones gun guys see in it, the feature would be quite a positive one. An option that someone might legitimately use for securing a gun that they think idle hands might get into. No more perfect or required than any other such safety protocol, but nothing to hate a manufacturer for adding.

A gun doesn't need to be locked, but if it can be, hey cool. A car's ignition doesn't need to be locked either, you really should have a garage with a lock on the door, but if it can be, hey cool.


Unfortunately the perceived political overtones -- or theorized and exaggerated supposed legal implications -- make the whole thing seem like treachery.

To the point that, some folks won't even accept the simple solution of removing the non-essential active part to ease their minds if they don't have a competent understanding of statistics.
 
My feeling is that a gun, especially a handgun, needs to be put away when not under direct physical control, where it can neither be stolen nor played with nor misused in some way by other than the owner. All the non-lock guns fall into this class, so I see no need to fabricate some logic that justifies internal lock systems and leaving guns lying about unsecured.
 
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