Smith and Wesson K frame that I would like some info on

[bernie]

A buddy of mine just got a .38 Special Smith and Wesson K frame that we have some questions on. He let me borrow it for some photos, but I am a luddite and do not know how to post photos. It looks like it had a longer barrel on it that has been converted to a 2" barrel. There are no markings on the barrel at all. Also, inside the frame at the crane recess, there is no model number marking, just the number 4 with 41616 stamped below it. The serial number is in the 58XXXX range. The hammer has a tall enough spur, that you have to get the hammer started back in double action before you can see down the sights. Also, on the left side of the frame, there appears to be a proof mark that are two crossed swords pointing down. Below the swords is a 2, on the left is an O and on the right is a B. Anyone know what kind of proof mark this would be? This is not a valuable revolver, but it was just odd enough that I thought I would see if anyone could give us some clues. His plan is that this will only be shot with light wadcutter loads as we are sure that it is not rated for Plus P.

 

[amd6547]

Without photos, we’ll never know.

 

[Jeff olson]

Probably either a model 14 or 15. Shipped in 1964.

 

[Jim Watson]

I am pretty sure you have a Military and Police .38 British Service Revolver that was declared redundant after WWII.
The Brits didn't want them, didn't want their subjects to have them, but there was a huge market in the USA for snub nose .38s as wielded by the masses of private eyes in film and print.
Original caliber was probably .38 S&W, the chambers reamed to take Specials when the barrel was sawn off.

 

[bernie]

Jim, that is pretty much what I was thinking. The cylinder has the serial number stamped on the back of it as well.

 

[Jim Watson]

Ought to be on the bottom of the barrel, too, unless they took it out to cut it off and got swapped.

 

[trackskippy]

Just from the hammer comment, it does sound like its an old M&P.

If they rebored the chambers, the brass is likely going to split or bulge when you shoot it. The British guns were in 38 S&W not "Special" and the bores are slightly oversized, and the chambers most definitely are.

You should still be OK to shoot 38 S&W out of it, but these days, at least from what Ive seen, they arent readily available in most shops, and salty to boot.

I have a couple of the Brit M&P's and have loaded 357 bullets in the 38 S&W cases, and they shot OK, even though they are slightly undersized. They tend to shoot a little low to the sights though. The heavier 200 grain bullets meant to be shot out of them do shoot to the sights.

 

[J-Bar]

but I am a luddite and do not know how to post photos.

Can you get the photos into your computer or phone, the same device you used to make your post?

 

[bernie]

When he shot it, it did bulge the brass slightly and shoot low as well.
Yes, I have the photos on my computer.

 

[Archie]

Bernie:
"It looks like it had a longer barrel on it that has been converted to a 2" barrel. There are no markings on the barrel at all." Sounds very much like it has been 'cut down' or shortened.

"... inside the frame at the crane recess, there is no model number marking..."
No model number suggests the arm was made prior to 1957. (That's when model numbers instead of names began.) Just so you know, that number that looks like a serial number in the crane recess is not the serial number. The actual serial number is on the bottom of the grip frame. At some point S&W began adding Letter prefixes to the serial numbers. That is to keep the numbers from being more than six digits (if I'm remembering rightly). The letters will roughly narrow the manufacture date. no prefix and number of "58xxxx" range (if that is the serial number from the bottom of the grip frame) was made between 1915 and 1942. (S&W has never keep track of monthly or yearly production records.)

"...hammer has a tall enough spur, that you have to get the hammer started back in double action before you can see down the sights"
That sounds like the 'humpback hammer'. I looked through the 'book' (Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson by Supica & Nahas) and didn't find any details of when the hammer shapes were changed. However, they were an older issue type thing.

Cannot find anything on proof marks as you describe.

"...not a valuable revolver, but it was just odd enough..." Yes, it is. Worth keeping and keeping it properly.

"...we are sure that it is not rated for Plus P." Correctamundo! I recall some years ago - allegedly by S&W - that revolvers prior to numbered models were not rated for +p loads. The wadcutter loads are a reasonable idea. I don't think the 'standard' load would be too much, but playing safer is certainly allowed.

 

[trackskippy]

If you reload, Id just load 38 S&W brass with 200 grain bullets. Thats the proper load, and they shoot well. Matts Bullets has the proper types. That way at least you arent wasting good brass. If you arent reloading, I suppose it doesnt matter.

Another alternative would be to find a 38 Special cylinder and have it fitted. Probably not worth the time and effort cost wise though.

 

[trackskippy]

You may want to look around here. They have have a lot of stuff that might get you close. Post #8 has a making similar to wjat you describe with the crossed swords.

https://www.smithandwessonforums.com/threads/british-commonwealth-s-w-revolver-markings.12263/

Also, both of my guns have a lanyard loop on the butt. If yours doesn't, is there a hole in the bottom of the frame on the grip, or maybe a cut off plug?

 

[Jim Watson]

Understand, these were $30 guns, $40 if nickel plated with "stag" handles when a new S&W was $60-$80.

 

[bernie]

It does not have a lanyard loop, but I did not look close enough to see if the hole may have been filled. It has been refinished, my bet the hole was plugged before the refinish.

The guy that it loads his own ammo and I can cast a 170 gr .38 bullet. I know this is not the loading forum, but for a .38-200 that was set up as a .38 Special, does anyone have a load for a 170 gr. cast bullet that is pretty mild. Maybe using Unique?

 

[trackskippy]

Ive been loading 2.0 grains of Unique under the 200 grain MKI bullet that Matts makes. If I remember right, I was getting around 650 fps with that load. Its a soft shooting load and very pleasant to shoot. Its shoots well too.

With 158 grain 357 bullets, I was loading 2.5 grains of Unique.

Both of those were loaded in 38 S&W cases.

Bear in mind too, the 38 S&W uses a .361 bullet, and not a .357.

 

[Jim Watson]

At the risk of contributing to the delinquency of a loader I do not know...
Lyman 44 says the 168 gr Keith + 3.0 gr Unique = 585 fps in a 38 Special.

History
The British had this strange stopping power theory that a heavy low velocity bullet was adequate because it would make the chest wall go into vibration at a resonant frequency. Yes, they thought they were literally beating their enemies like a drum.
That sure worked with 265 gr .455s, but then in the search for a handier sidearm, the Royal Ballistician looked at the US .38 Super Police load with blunt 200 gr bullets at modest speed and pronounced it equivalent. He chose the .38 S&W version as a basis because he meant to stay with the top break action and its short extractor travel wouldn't do for the longer Special case.

The WD selected an Enfield design revolver, superficially similar to the Webley, but different in detail. Come the War, they were buying Webleys and building Enfields at such places as Albion Motors, and accepting Smith and Wessons in lieu of the dud S&W Light Rifle they had already paid for, then Cash and Carry and Lend-Lease. Some Colt Commandos, too.

 

[J-Bar]

Yes, I have the photos on my computer.

Add a new post to this thread rather than risking messing up you first post with trying to add photos.

I like to put the photos to be added on the computer desktop rather than having to search for them in a big photo file.

Begin in a new text box with the cursor flashing where you want the photo to show up. Then click “Upload a File” under the text space. Go to your Desktop (or wherever you have it stored on your computer) click on the photo to highlight it. Then find the”Add” or “Done” button. Click it and watch your photo be uploaded to your post. It will show up first as a thumbnail below the text box. If you want it to show up full size in the text box, click on the full size button by the thumbnail.

Hope this works for your system. Looking forward to seeing the revolver.

 

[Jonesy814]

Sounds like a Birmingham proof mark. The revolver is most likely a British Service Revolver from the WW2 era. Britain was desperate for arms after Dunkirk. They were buying 5 inch S&W K frames chambered in 38S&W which they called 38/200. At first they were buying commercial models. Once lend- lease started these morphed into the parkerized type finish, non- checkered grip Victory models.
After the war they were sold as surplus. Many were reamed for 38special and had the barrel shortened and then were re- imported to America. Upon being released from British service the guns were required to go to a proving house were the gun was tested to handle 38 Specials and proof marks applied
Most of these were sold out of service in the early 50’s through early 60’s.
Here is a table of Birmingham proof marks. Looks like the O/B was used in 1961

 

[Riomouse911]

I had almost the same type of revolver you describe, OP.. Mine had a 2” barrel with no ejector rod lug (It looked like a Colt), it had a half-moon sight brazed on, the parkerizing was polished off and it was reblued.

The cylinder was probably hogged out with a carrot scraper to .38 Spl. length and yes, every shot split cases that wedged in the cylinder. (I bought-shot this gun years ago before I knew any better.) Note the V in the first picture, it was a lend-lease “Victory” model when first produced. After Bubba got to it it was practically worthless.



Too bad the 38/200 you are talking about was Bubbaed up like my gun was. Those old guns are pretty cool, and valuable, when left bone stock.

Stay safe.

 

[Jim Watson]

Here is what it looked like to start with.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Jim, passed on a .38 S&W Victory at a gunshow recently. Really would like a minty Victory.
Moon