Smith and Wesson Shield Malfunction and Customer Service

[Shield_Malfunction]

if your gun gets fixed, do you change your name or just stop posting?

Haven't decided, just made the first name that came to mind. Long time lurker guess now I can start posting.

 

[Shield_Malfunction]

S&W customer service is usually pretty good. It's unfortunate that they did not get this fixed right away. But occasionally they mess things up and this is one of those cases.

Did you send them a copy of the vid?

The only recall or safety notice on the Shields is from 2013 and regards the drop safety. You can see that here...

https://secure05.lwcdirect.com/fron...inType=skipWelcome&clientID=742&campaignID=63

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category3_750001_750051_757978_-1_Y

There have been no recalls regarding the manual safeties. As you say, your issue does not involve those.

The issue you describe does not seem to be common. I haven't heard of it before and there was no quick fix.

I encourage you to go over to the S&W forum and discuss it there, someone may have seen this before.

Jerry, in post 21, does raise a good point.

My own Shield in 9mm has been flawless and a very good shooter both two handed and one handed.

tipoc

I was familiar with the trigger/drop safety recall.

I sent them a copy of the url in a letter with the gun. The person I spoke with was confident he found the problem and said that sometimes it can seem like they fix an issue, when the problem is in another place (paraphrased).

 

[Shield_Malfunction]

SAAMI nominal velocity for 155gr .40 S&W is 1115-1195 fps

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/VelocityPressureData.pdf

The velocity on your ammunition is labeled at 1300 fps.

That Underwood ammunition is not SAAMI spec.

From my understanding SAAMI specifications concern pressure, not velocity. Good powders can develop relatively high velocity at lower pressures, while bad powders (or powders that are a bad choice for that cartridge) can develop high pressure with low velocity. This is why there are so many different gun powders with various characteristics, burn rates, etc. The Underwood offering shoots fine in a SR40c and the brass shows no pressure signs like bulging at the feed ramp, excessive ejection distance, etc. The gun also malfunctioned with 180 grain loads at 1050 fps, I chronographed those, don't remember the brand.

Additionally if the ammo was slightly over pressure, this malfunction still should not happen. A failure to feed or eject would be expected, but not this type of malfunction. I explained to customer service that it only happened with warm ammo and not lighter factory. He seemed to agree that it was a gun problem and not an ammunition problem, saying that the warmer ammo caused the striker to rattle around more in the slide or something along those lines.

 

[tipoc]

Well it is a gun problem and S&W should have repaired it the first time. But there is maybe more to the story.

The Underwood ammo you were running is the same as a load offered by Buffalo Bore. A 155 gr. pill at 1300 fps, which you can see here...

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=115

BB advises that this is a +P load. Officially SAMMI has no +P load for the 40 S&W. In other words it is a load that operates in excess of SAMMI specs.

S&W cautions against the use of these loads in the Shield. It does this in the manual that accompanies the gun.

This is a good stout load from both BB and Underwood. You could use it on hogs or deer. It is more powerful than most loads for the .357 Magnum with a 158 gr. pill from a 4" barrel.

It would be a good load from a full size gun or even some compact pistols. But in a hideout gun like the Shield it becomes an error.

The Shield is a small lightweight piece. It is not meant or built to take repeated firing of +P ammo as hot as a 155 gr. pill at 1300 fps repeatedly whether that is within pressure or not. It is not just an issue of can the shooter control that ammo from a small piece like the Shield, but that the ammo will rattle and roll the piece to an early grave.

The ammo is not matched to the gun or the task. That's a problem.

The gun will likely do well with standard pressure loads that teh shooter can control from a piece this size and that the gun was built to handle large volumes of. Winchester, Federal, CCI and others offer this. But for BB and Underwood and a few others...stronger guns are needed.

tipoc

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

From my understanding SAAMI specifications concern pressure, not velocity.

I would like to refer back to the link I included in my first post:

http://[U]www.saami.org[/U]/specifications_and_information/VelocityPressureData.pdf


Yes, you can get velocity changes that will keep you in spec by using different powders, but checking my Hornady books last night, there isn't one they think will keep you in spec while pushing the 155gr XTP at 1300 FPS.

The gun also malfunctioned with 180 grain loads at 1050 fps, I chronographed those, don't remember the brand.

Before or after having fired the +P ammunition through it? Once the gun is broken, it will continue to be broken.


Honestly, I'd be surprised if S&W even touches the gun anymore if they see the video you linked. You've violated their terms of warranty.

 

[Shield_Malfunction]

Well it is a gun problem and S&W should have repaired it the first time. But there is maybe more to the story.

The Underwood ammo you were running is the same as a load offered by Buffalo Bore. A 155 gr. pill at 1300 fps, which you can see here...

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=115

BB advises that this is a +P load. Officially SAMMI has no +P load for the 40 S&W. In other words it is a load that operates in excess of SAMMI specs.

S&W cautions against the use of these loads in the Shield. It does this in the manual that accompanies the gun.

This is a good stout load from both BB and Underwood. You could use it on hogs or deer. It is more powerful than most loads for the .357 Magnum with a 158 gr. pill from a 4" barrel.

It would be a good load from a full size gun or even some compact pistols. But in a hideout gun like the Shield it becomes an error.

The Shield is a small lightweight piece. It is not meant or built to take repeated firing of +P ammo as hot as a 155 gr. pill at 1300 fps repeatedly whether that is within pressure or not. It is not just an issue of can the shooter control that ammo from a small piece like the Shield, but that the ammo will rattle and roll the piece to an early grave.

The ammo is not matched to the gun or the task. That's a problem.

The gun will likely do well with standard pressure loads that teh shooter can control from a piece this size and that the gun was built to handle large volumes of. Winchester, Federal, CCI and others offer this. But for BB and Underwood and a few others...stronger guns are needed.

tipoc

Thats your opinion and I understand it, but I disagree. I expect my carry gun to shoot this ammunition. If it had a common malfunction I would blame the ammo, such as a failure to feed or eject. This malfunction shows there is something wrong. I guess agree to disagree. The person I spoke to seemed confident that he found the problem and told me it wouldn't happen this time. I told him it only happened with hot ammo, not once did he question the ammo, which indicates to me he knows there was a gun problem.

 

[Shield_Malfunction]

I would like to refer back to the link I included in my first post:

http://[U]www.saami.org[/U]/specifications_and_information/VelocityPressureData.pdf


Yes, you can get velocity changes that will keep you in spec by using different powders, but checking my Hornady books last night, there isn't one they think will keep you in spec while pushing the 155gr XTP at 1300 FPS.



Before or after having fired the +P ammunition through it? Once the gun is broken, it will continue to be broken.


Honestly, I'd be surprised if S&W even touches the gun anymore if they see the video you linked. You've violated their terms of warranty.

Longshot powder can get you to 1283, ammo manufacturers have access to superior powders than reloaders. That you are still thinking this is an ammo related problem, and not a gun problem is truly baffling.

Smith and Wesson is not concerned about the ammunition because they understand the gun is broken, and is not related to hot ammo. I told the person fixing my gun it only happened with hot ammo, not once did he question the ammo, which indicates to me he knows there was a gun problem.

 

[tipoc]

1. I've said several times that it is a gun problem which S&W should have repaired the first time. The gun should not have fallen apart so soon.

2. I've also advised that no gun this size is built for a steady diet of the ammo you have chosen. It is a poor choice for a piece of this size. Both S&W and BB have cautioned on this matter. It is this second part that we disagree on.

Time will tell. It already has spoken on this issue in general. But for you time will tell. I'm glad to leave the subject there.

tipoc

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

That you are still thinking this is an ammo related problem, and not a gun problem is truly baffling.

You have not shown it not to be ammunition induced issue.

No where on the Underwood Ammunition site does it say their ammunition meets SAAMI specifications and all indications to this point are that it does not. No where that I can find on their website do Underwood state what pressure their ammunition is operating at.

Smith and Wesson is not concerned about the ammunition because they understand the gun is broken, and is not related to hot ammo. I told the person fixing my gun it only happened with hot ammo, not once did he question the ammo, which indicates to me he knows there was a gun problem.

Or it just means they expect people to not tell the truth about what they've been shooting through their gun, so they don't even bother asking and are going to measure it with a micrometer when it gets in the shop to see if it's been beaten out of spec.

Never assume motivations from a simple communication, especially one not conducted face to face.

Honestly, the steadfast refusal to believe that it might be related to the super hot boutique ammunition being shot through it is somewhat amusing. It makes me wonder, what other brands of ammunition have been fired through the gun in it's life? The fact that the plate slips down while using this ammunition does not necessarily indicate this ammunition is what caused the problem, only that this ammunition allows the symptoms to be seen.

There is one more point that needs to be addressed:

If it had a common malfunction I would blame the ammo, such as a failure to feed or eject. This malfunction shows there is something wrong.

Yes, failures to feed and eject can be ammunition induced failures, but so is this:



A physical failure of the gun itself, including parts falling off, can be an ammunition issue, particularly induced by using ammunition too strong for the firearm.

Now, here's exactly what is happening to you shield and why I think it's an ammunition problem. The rear plate is held in place by a white plastic sleeve attached to the firing pin/striker. In front of the sleeve is the striker spring then a white plastic collar that interacts with the front of the striker channel to stop the strikers forward motion. When the firing pin is fully forward in the firing sequence the sleeve is also forward and the rear plate is unlocked. In order for the plate to drop out of place, the slide must move rearward 3/10th of an inch before the firing pin retreats 1/10th of an inch to relock the plate.

If this is not happening with normal ammunition but is with the hot loads... and a replacement striker assembly with a new spring and collar did not fix the issue, the only issue left is slide speed. Either the ammunition is pushing the slide too fast or your recoil spring is bad.

 

[Jim K]

I have zero experience with the Shield, but with similar guns (and 1911 firing pin stops) I will opine that the cause is the speed and direction of recoil when firing a specific load. That makes the problem very hard to correct because it probably won't happen with any other load and the gun will work 100% for the factory testers using their ammo. (The end cap is not "dropping"; the gun is recoiling upward and if the cap is not held firmly, it will remain behind and come out of the slide. A weak striker spring can also contribute to that kind of porblem, since the striker guide can also stay in place when the gun recoils, allowing the cap to move.)

I could suggest trying other ammunition, but the OP has ruled that out. I could also suggest possible fixes, but those would void any warranty and maybe cost money.

Jim

 

[littlebluevette]

I don't know. S&W has always been good to me when I had an issue with one of their products. I think a BS call on this thread may be in order....