Smith & Wesson 3rd Model HE of 1926 Binding Problem

[Rio Laxas]

I have a shooter grade S&W 3rd Model Hand Ejector of 1926 that is having a few issues with binding, primarily in DA. It has been refinished and the hammer and trigger have been nickled. It also has a bit of end shake. Overall the revolver is a bit loose.

Intermittently when firing the revolver in DA with live ammunition or dry firing with snap caps, the trigger will get most of the way back and then get a kind of gritty feel. Most of the time it can be depressed all of the way back against this gritty feel using a fair amount of force, but sometimes it really sticks. The hammer will fall, but it seems like a light strike. When firing live ammunition, it will not strike the primer with sufficient force. It will also occasionally spit lead while firing.

This does not happen without ammunition or snap caps in the cylinder. While it does not stick nearly as often when cocking for single action, occasionally there is a bit of resistance at about the same point.

The strain screw is fully tightened. The ejector rod is fully tightened. I have duplicated this malfunction with the sideplate removed (with the cylinder in place), but I cannot see anything visibly wrong with it. Other than end shake, the only thing I suspect is that it may have something to do with the rebound spring assembly.

Does this sound like a an end shake issue or something else?

I will probably be sending this revolver to my gunsmith in another state, but I figured I would see if I could troubleshoot through simple things before going through the hassle of shipping it.

 

[VA27]

Make sure that it's clean under the extractor star. Unburned powder grains and other stuff (even a thread from a cleaning patch) can cause similar symtoms.

 

[Old Fuff]

What you need to do is go through a process of elimination until you isolate what's causing the problem.

Start by removing the hammer assembly, but nothing else. Then replace the side plate and screws. Double-action the trigger and if the problem is or isn't still present.

 

[Rio Laxas]

It doesn't feel as bad and doesn't do it as often, but I can feel resistance at the same spot in the trigger pull, mostly all the way back, and then it hits rough spot that can be overcome with more force than should be necessary.

Also, the malfunction does not occur if I point the revolver at the floor, but it does occur more often if I point it at the ceiling and allow the rear of the snap caps to rest against the recoil shield.

It's hard to tell for sure, but if I watch the cylinder gap while causing the malfunction to occur, it kind of looks like the cylinder is coming close to the forcing cone, it hits the resistance, and then if I pull the trigger all the way back, it looks like the cylinder is backing away from the forcing cone.

 

[Old Fuff]

Swing out the cylinder, and hold the cylinder bolt thumb piece in its rearward position, while you use your other hand to double-action the trigger.

 

[Rio Laxas]

It does not occur when the cylinder is out.

 

[Old Fuff]

When the cylinder is swung out, turn it and see if they're are any rough spots. Also look at the face of the cylinder for any rub marks that might indicate it's rubbing on the barrel.

 

[Jim K]

Since it does not occur when the cylinder is out or unloaded, let's look at what else might be involved. The first is that the cartridge case heads are rubbing on the recoil shield. That could be due to cases not being fully seated, or to a rough frame area, including the firing pin hole being peened outward, leaving a burr.

Another possibility is that the cartridge rims are hitting the cylinder stop stud. (That is not the part that stops cylinder rotation, but the small part on the left side that keeps the cylinder from sliding backwards when it is opened.) If that happens, it could mean the cartridge rims are too large (out of spec) or that the cylinder arbor is bent.

A bent arbor is easy to check. Pull the hammer back just far enough to disengage the cylinder stop (the other one), and block it with something like a pencil. With the cylinder free to spin, spin it and look through the frame window to see if the frame-cylinder distance varies. If it does, (not counting the flutes, of course), time for a trip to a gunsmith or the factory.

Jim

 

[Rio Laxas]

Old Fuff.....The cylinder turns fine. I think there is evidence of slight rub marks at the top of each chamber on the front face of the cylinder where it is probably contacting the forcing cone. My evidence for this is that the carbon ring is gone from the top of each chamber, some worse than others. It looks faintly scratched in this area.

Jim K.....I do not see anything visually wrong with the frame area. The firing pin hole looks normal. It does not appear that the arbor is bent.

EDIT: There is one thing that I do see that might be wrong the face of the recoil shield. If you are looking at the recoil shield, there is a ledge just to the left of the firing pin. The ledge is fairly pronounced and looks a bit worn. If I put only one snap cap in the revolver, it doesn't hang up much, but when it does it seems that the snap cap is in the chamber just right of the firing pin. So it hangs up on an empty chamber with a snap cap in the next chamber to be fed in.

My 1917, Post-War Transitional Heavy Duty, & 1950 Military, all have fairly small ledge. My M25 does not have the ledge at all. I have other 44 HEs, but none with me that I can compare it to.

I wonder if someone over zealously polished the recoil shield and made that ledge more pronounced.

 

[Old Fuff]

I agree with Jim's observations, and suspect that the issue is most likely associated with the cylinder, yoke and possibly associated internal parts.

If you have an end-shake problem you need to identify it. Same can be said about a cartridge/breechface clearance condition. To determine this you will need a set of feeler gauges, of the kind usually used to gap sparkplugs.

If you don't have a set, check the automotive supply stores or departments in big-box chains in your area to obtain a set. They shouldn't be expensive.

 

[Rio Laxas]

Thank you both for your wisdom on the subject. It sounds like it should probably go to my gunsmith for troubleshooting.

 

[Old Fuff]

It sounds like it should probably go to my gunsmith, Alan Harton, for troubleshooting.

To be blunt, that depends on his experience and knowledge of Smith & Wesson revolvers. They're gunsmiths of all kinds, good, bad and indifferent. You need one who is a specialist.

Besides the obvious some conditions require particular tooling and gauges to find and then correct. Is your gunsmith so equipped?

Understand that if a mistake occurs and a part needs to be replaced, you may be up the well known creek.

 

[Rio Laxas]

I was planning on sending it to Alan Harton in Houston. He does primarily single action revolvers, but I am told he is very good with DA revolvers also. He has done work on a few revolvers for me in the past, but nothing like this.

There is a local gunsmith that I often use and he does S&W warranty work, but he doesn't seem to be all that excited about working on older revolvers.

If there are any other recommendations, I'd be happy to hear them. Most of the ones I know of are either not taking in new work (Grant Cunningham) or out of business (David Chicoine).

 

[Old Fuff]

There is a local gunsmith that I often use and he does S&W warranty work, but he doesn't seem to be all that excited about working on older revolvers.

Yup, and that's Smith & Wesson's view too. Nobody likes to get involved sometimes if the gun-in-question has an unspecified problem, and replacement parts for all practical purposes aren't available. However he should be able to make a quick check for end-shake. Fixing it might be something else - depending on what method he might use.

I was planning on sending it to Alan Harton in Houston. He does primarily single action revolvers, but I am told he is very good with DA revolvers also. He has done work on a few revolvers for me in the past, but nothing like this.

Google up his name and see what you might find out, and/or check his web page if he has one. Last but not least, if you decide to go his direction phone him and see what he says.

 

[Jim K]

The cylinder rubbing the barrel could be the result of an endshake problem, which a good gunsmith should be able to correct. (Shim rings can be bought from Brownells if you feel lucky.)

But if the cylinder rubbing is uneven, there could still be a problem with the arbor or with the cylinder itself; I have seen a few machined unevenly, right from the factory. Also, in setting up a revolver, there is a common idea that the barrel-cylinder gap should be as small as possible. That is not true since if the gap is too small, firing even one cylinder full is enough to heat the cylinder and expand it so it binds. I consider .007" to be about optimum on an S&W.

Jim