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PWGUNNY
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Very interesting.
Smith & Wesson 625 .45acp performance center
- Thread starter PWGUNNY
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Sgt_Mike1
Member
differences between 625 -6 and 8 ???
625-6 (1997): Change frame design to eliminate cylinder stop stud; eliminate serrated tangs; change to MIM trigger; change internal lockwork to .45 ACP caliber.
625-7 (1998): New frame design as above for .45 Colt.
625-8 (2001): Internal key lock system for .45 ACP.
nope don't see anything in the revisions that could cause one or the other to prevent bullet creep or setback.
not saying that coaltrains point is not valid in his case, but a crimp does work in a N frame to prevent such from happening.
btw used to own a M1917 (while not a true 625 but was the grandfather) as well as 1911A1, commander. The 1917 would do bullet creep if not slightly crimped of course this was before I learned about how to actually load a cast bullet without swaging it .So yeah know exactly what both of you are referring to. I ran the crimped loads that the M1917 took in the auto's all the time no issues. BTW the World Wide Web or internet said nothing about that in 1983 ... oh wait we didn't have the Internet then we read books
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halfmoonclip
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Generally good advice here.
Can't say I've had issues with bullet pull; my standard load is 4.6/Bullseye/230 FMJ for a 'softball' load, maybe 50'sec slower than full house hardball.
I always use a firm, taper crimp, and have never had a whit of trouble with bullet pull. I never even reset the press when shifting from autorims to ACPs. It hasn't ever been a hard round to load, and I run my standard load in both autos and revos.
I use gunshow moons,(less than a dollar apiece) and was amazed how expensive they were in 9mm. The 9s are much more fiddly, and nearly always require a loading tool. The .45s can generally be snapped in with your fingers, though a tool can be useful.
You will want a tool to get them back out; a late buddy, AKA Ironass Muldoon, always insisted on pulling them out with his fingers...and sprung the moons. This leads to misfires. I finally gave him a tool.
So use a tool, whether the stamped steel hook, or a notched tube. It saves time, your fingers, and your moons.
I generally use moons or AutoRims, though the 625s should work without them.
Never tried the poly moons.
The 325 may be a different matter; a 986 of mine is iffy without moons. The 325 is also a rappy thing with even my softball loads; I don't want to imagine what a 329 would be like.
A range run with a shoebox full of loaded moons is a good time.
Moon
Can't say I've had issues with bullet pull; my standard load is 4.6/Bullseye/230 FMJ for a 'softball' load, maybe 50'sec slower than full house hardball.
I always use a firm, taper crimp, and have never had a whit of trouble with bullet pull. I never even reset the press when shifting from autorims to ACPs. It hasn't ever been a hard round to load, and I run my standard load in both autos and revos.
I use gunshow moons,(less than a dollar apiece) and was amazed how expensive they were in 9mm. The 9s are much more fiddly, and nearly always require a loading tool. The .45s can generally be snapped in with your fingers, though a tool can be useful.
You will want a tool to get them back out; a late buddy, AKA Ironass Muldoon, always insisted on pulling them out with his fingers...and sprung the moons. This leads to misfires. I finally gave him a tool.
So use a tool, whether the stamped steel hook, or a notched tube. It saves time, your fingers, and your moons.
I generally use moons or AutoRims, though the 625s should work without them.
Never tried the poly moons.
The 325 may be a different matter; a 986 of mine is iffy without moons. The 325 is also a rappy thing with even my softball loads; I don't want to imagine what a 329 would be like.
A range run with a shoebox full of loaded moons is a good time.
Moon
tominboise
Member
I can usually load 5 rounds into a steel moon clip with my fingers, and the 6th needs a push against the bench to snap it in. The poly clips I can load all 6 no problems. I love my 625's - super accurate for me and just all around fun to shoot.
Sgt_Mike1
Member
LMAO yeah I was young and dumb back then .. I ran the cast loads as hot as the manual said ( for a jacketed and though Hey its the same weight , learned quick fast and in a hurry) and didn't know about a expander for lead. and wondered why my upper limit cast loads would creep and bind slightly and my jacketed didn't
CoalTrain49
Member
625-6
I don't think the changes between a -6 and -8 makes much difference WRT 45 ACP pulling bullets under recoil. The internal lock is "evil" but not that "evil".
Yes it can happen, I have don't it with other cartridges with more recoil and/or lighter revolvers but I have never done it with a 625 and 45 ACP using a tapered crimp and FMJ or coated bullets and coated bullet do not tolerate much over crimp. I tapper crimp my 10mm Auto for my 610 and that is substantial more recoil and have not had an issue there either. Again, something to watch for and each new load I work up I always do the shoot five and pull the moonclip and look at the 6 for bullet movement, but so far no issue in my 625. YMMV
Barrel length makes a difference as was already discussed.
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mcb
Member
Sure and I mentioned that in my first post on this sub-topic. Is your -8 a snubby?
Sgt_Mike1
Member
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PWGUNNY
Member
First off, I want to thank all you gentleman for your replies. I know this is the site I go to when I'm in search of expert advice. After seeing the Polymer moon clips that Jim Watson posted up, I believe that is the way I'm going. This way I can run the .45 ACP and not have to invest in additional equipment to load/unload the moon clips. I don't get to shoot as much as I used to since moving last year. My prior town had an indoor range that I had a membership with, now my nearest range is the state run outdoor range about 30 minutes away. Since moving I still have my Dillon 550 press sitting in the box. I need to get motivated to setup a reloading bench and get back to my shooting hobby. I have this pistol and a new Springfield Armory Saint rifle that I have yet to shoot. Maybe this Friday I'll make some time for the range to exercise my new additions.
Somewhere before 1916, it became apparent to S&W that two things were about to happen.
First, the USA was going to get involved in WW I. Second, there would be a shortage of the 1911 pistol. Joseph Wesson set his engineers to build a revolver that would handle the 45 ACP round. The Second Model Hand Ejector was already being produced for Great Britain so they started there. Getting a cylinder to chamber and fire the ACP cartridge was easy, just chamber the cylinder properly to headspace on the case mouth. The hard part was extracting the fired cartridges. Tilting the muzzle up often allowed the fired cartridges to just fall out with a little shaking. Or a flick of a nail or knife blade would get them loose also. It was thought, correctly, that the Army would not look on those as acceptable methods. Joe Wesson put a couple of folks to work on it, one being himself. Two things were found and patented, a 3 round clip, the half moon with which we are familiar, and a 6 round, full moon clip. This full moon clip was not the one that S&W came up with 60 years later but a less robust version with spring fingers to hold the cartridges. (They were made, tested and failed by the Army.)
The 1/2 moon clip was made for one purpose only, to allow the spent cartridges to be extracted from the cylinder chambers. The were not built to headspace the cartridge. Headspacing was controlled by the depth of the chamber.
It worked and S&W allowed Colts to use the 1/2 moon clips in the revolvers they produced. Actually, in the early Colt revolvers, the chambers were bored straight through, so in the Colt revolvers, headspace was controlled by the clips. The Army soon caused Colt to correct that error and fix the revolvers that had already been accepted.
Fast forward to the 1970s. S&W approaches Ranch Products in Malinta, Ohio. They want Ranch Products to produce a new 6 shot, full moon clip and provide the drawings to be used to build them. These were to be used in the Model 25-2 since no other ACP revolver was produced by S&W during that era.
The Model 1988 was a stainless ACP revolver and sometime after that, S&W got lazy and stopped boring the cylinders with the attention to detail required to headspace ACP ammunition in a revolver. In those revolvers, moon clips are needed.
Kevin
First, the USA was going to get involved in WW I. Second, there would be a shortage of the 1911 pistol. Joseph Wesson set his engineers to build a revolver that would handle the 45 ACP round. The Second Model Hand Ejector was already being produced for Great Britain so they started there. Getting a cylinder to chamber and fire the ACP cartridge was easy, just chamber the cylinder properly to headspace on the case mouth. The hard part was extracting the fired cartridges. Tilting the muzzle up often allowed the fired cartridges to just fall out with a little shaking. Or a flick of a nail or knife blade would get them loose also. It was thought, correctly, that the Army would not look on those as acceptable methods. Joe Wesson put a couple of folks to work on it, one being himself. Two things were found and patented, a 3 round clip, the half moon with which we are familiar, and a 6 round, full moon clip. This full moon clip was not the one that S&W came up with 60 years later but a less robust version with spring fingers to hold the cartridges. (They were made, tested and failed by the Army.)
The 1/2 moon clip was made for one purpose only, to allow the spent cartridges to be extracted from the cylinder chambers. The were not built to headspace the cartridge. Headspacing was controlled by the depth of the chamber.
It worked and S&W allowed Colts to use the 1/2 moon clips in the revolvers they produced. Actually, in the early Colt revolvers, the chambers were bored straight through, so in the Colt revolvers, headspace was controlled by the clips. The Army soon caused Colt to correct that error and fix the revolvers that had already been accepted.
Fast forward to the 1970s. S&W approaches Ranch Products in Malinta, Ohio. They want Ranch Products to produce a new 6 shot, full moon clip and provide the drawings to be used to build them. These were to be used in the Model 25-2 since no other ACP revolver was produced by S&W during that era.
The Model 1988 was a stainless ACP revolver and sometime after that, S&W got lazy and stopped boring the cylinders with the attention to detail required to headspace ACP ammunition in a revolver. In those revolvers, moon clips are needed.
Kevin
halfmoonclip
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Yep. How much of an issue this may be depends on who made the moons, and the brand of casing/tolerances.
Not personally a fan of the poly moons; the loading/unloading stuff (unloading especially) tools aren't that expensive, and the metal moons are sturdier/less likely to shed rounds.
I made a mooning tool out of a piece of aluminum stock and some washers.
Moon
jmorris
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https://www.ranchproducts.com/shop.html
Is the place to get moonclips. The last ones I bought were $20/100 and the same ones everyone else, marks up and sells.
I bought and even built a few moon/demoon tools but once 45 GAP brass came around in enough volume, I just use it. SPP NT brass was what I used before, because SPP a can get away with less mainspring. GAP gives that and easy moon/demoon, as well as clear the cylinder faster upon ejection.
Is the place to get moonclips. The last ones I bought were $20/100 and the same ones everyone else, marks up and sells.
I bought and even built a few moon/demoon tools but once 45 GAP brass came around in enough volume, I just use it. SPP NT brass was what I used before, because SPP a can get away with less mainspring. GAP gives that and easy moon/demoon, as well as clear the cylinder faster upon ejection.
highlander 5
Member
I've 2 625s and one drove me nuts with misfires with 45 Auto Rim brass,solved with a better taper crimp and a new longer firing pin.
halfmoonclip
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I've a 325 that drove me nuts with misfires. It was used, and the original owner had shortened the strain screw. Didn't figure that out 'till much later; I was able to get the gun to run with the thickest OEM mainspring in the parts box.
BTW, it appears the 325 will headspace on the case mouth, nines in the 986 will not.
Moon
v8stang289
Member
That's kinda crazy, I've never heard of anyone having that issue.
For revolvers, I have a 625-8 and a Cimarron SAA in 45acp.
Thousands of rounds of 45acp and never an issue. I load for 5 1911's, a G21, a P220, a 625-8, the SAA clone, and a blowback AR45. Currently loading 6 different bullets and they all function in everything.
I even load some low level 45 super that I shoot in the 625 and the G21 (215wfn@1100 and 230xtp@1050) and taper crimp with the same die I use for everything else with no issues
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PWGUNNY
Member
Thank you @Jim Watson I wound up ordering these. I took them to the range the day they arrived, and they were awesome. Easy to load and unload and they worked flawlessly. I may buy another set of 10 once I start reloading the .45acp. I have to buy the shell conversion kit and the dies for my Dillon 550b. The problem is I have to setup my press in my garage and it's a bit cluttered there now. My press and components have been boxed up since moving a year ago.
halfmoonclip
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PWGunny, dread the thought of moving. Last time I had to re-set the shop was when I married, 37 years ago, and had to move the 550 out of my bachelor digs.
I seem to recall a couple bullet pulls in the 325, but it's never been an issue with the all steel guns. Forty five auto revos are a great thing; enjoy yours.
Moon
I seem to recall a couple bullet pulls in the 325, but it's never been an issue with the all steel guns. Forty five auto revos are a great thing; enjoy yours.
Moon
Dave DeLaurant
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slickracer
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For range use, RIMZ are great. They work perfectly in my 625. I thought about going auto rim, but ACP brass is plentiful and free.
slickracer
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My 625-8 needed a longer firing pin as well.
Both of these 625s shoot very well and do not require moon clips to function, but I use them anyway. I have a couple hundred and just load them up before heading to the range with an ammo can filled with loaded clips. I do have some Auto Rim brass I want to load up. Top is a 625-3 bottom is a 625-6.
