Smith & Wesson Sport 2 or Ruger AR 5.56?

[AlexanderA]

This discussion begs one question: how important is brand, anyway, when it comes to AR's? AR's have been a commodity since the late 1970's / early 1980's when the first aftermarket (non-Colt) receivers and parts became available. Given the modularity and ease of assembly of the design, an owner can pick and choose the features he wants. It seems to me that the people who worry about brands -- of assembled guns -- are newcomers to this game.

 

[DustyGmt]

It seems to me that the people who worry about brands -- of assembled guns -- are newcomers to this game.

I call it splitting fine hairs. There are minute, sometimes inconsequential differences from brand to brand, maker to maker that dont mean a whole lot in the end. It's a discussion forum, some of us discuss the differences with that understanding, but still for sake of conversation split hairs about it...

 

[Skylerbone]

This discussion begs one question: how important is brand, anyway, when it comes to AR's?

It seems to me that the people who worry about brands -- of assembled guns -- are newcomers to this game

I’ll put forth this question to you then and others can ponder it as well: Your choice of a brand new Noveske or Radical Firearms build to be used for SD, and I mean USE not SELL then buy 3 others.

In the same vein of questioning, would you prefer @entropy (picking on him) to assemble an AR for you or my 16 year old son (he’s done two). These are both rhetorical in my mind, with both speaking to broad generalizations about manufacturers. We probably agree that Smith and Ruger stand an equal chance of doing things right, others not so much, still others even better.

 

[entropy]

Hey, now.......

 

[AlexanderA]

I’ll put forth this question to you then and others can ponder it as well: Your choice of a brand new Noveske or Radical Firearms build to be used for SD, and I mean USE not SELL then buy 3 others.

In the same vein of questioning, would you prefer @entropy (picking on him) to assemble an AR for you or my 16 year old son (he’s done two). These are both rhetorical in my mind, with both speaking to broad generalizations about manufacturers. We probably agree that Smith and Ruger stand an equal chance of doing things right, others not so much, still others even better.

I'm not sure what your question is. I've been assembling AR's since about 1979. The only problems I've had with out-of-spec lower receivers were with early SGW's machined out of aluminum bar stock. Those took some, shall we say, "adjusting." I've usually been able to hand-select parts from vendors. I don't pay a premium just for a name. In my book, an Anderson lower (aside from the aesthetics, such as a too-deep rollmark) is just as good as a name-brand one.

 

[Skylerbone]

I'm not sure what your question is. I've been assembling AR's since about 1979. The only problems I've had with out-of-spec lower receivers were with early SGW's machined out of aluminum bar stock. Those took some, shall we say, "adjusting." I've usually been able to hand-select parts from vendors. I don't pay a premium just for a name. In my book, an Anderson lower (aside from the aesthetics, such as a too-deep rollmark) is just as good as a name-brand one.

Yes but would you trust a low-end vendor, his parts list, and his labor force to assemble your AR? I agree that most roll marks are just that, but that does not mean all of them are the same.

 

[Ignition Override]

Darth Vang: Are you limited by that general price range?

You might want to consider adding a Geissele trigger which so many people prefer.

 

[DerMerchant]

Can't go wrong with ruger, but I've heard good thing about the smith. Personally I would prefer a mid length gas system.
Just don't go replacing every part like most people do, a decent light, optic, and sling is all you need, although I would upgrade to an h2 buffer if they come with a carbine buffer and maybe a sprinco blue spring, just to slow it down a bit.

At the moment I would opt for a PSA ak, easier to find ammo and mags right now. I still see 7.62x39 in big box stores.

 

[Styx]

Not looking to pick a fight but I’d need to see a source for that. Now when speaking directly to the Ruger, it isn’t chrome lined therefore it should wear at the same rate as any other non-treated barrel.

Compared with a nitride treated barrel in theory the Smith ought to wear better thereby maintaining its accuracy longer.

Incorrect. A regular nitrited barrel is NOT better, stronger, more durable, nor will it generally last longer than a CHF barrel chrome lined or not. That isn't coming from me, that's the consensus of manufactures, experts, and everyone on forums and social media who are much more knowledgeable than we are. I've never seen anyone make the argument you both are making. The barrel is one of the major components that takes on the most stress on an AR, and the Ruger has a superior barrel. It is not equal to the S&W Sport 2, and the barrel on the S&W Sport 2 isn't better as you claimed. @DustyGmt might claim you don't need a more durable barrel that can withstand more heat, stress, rounds, and keep its accuracy longer, but that depends on the individual owner.

side note: like higher end AR rifles, even Glock, M&P, Beretta, Sig, and most top tier handgun barrels are CHF while budget brands and even budget models from Ruger and S&W are not. Not sure why they'd choose to use CHF non chrome lined barrels if and when a regular nitrided barrel would have be better...

You can search other forums like ar15.com, AKFiles.com, and a bunch of others. You can Google and search for yourself. I did a quick Google search, and this is the front page.

Cold hammer forging changes the structure of steel, increasing the toughness of the metal and the barrel life of your rifle...

A cold hammer forged barrel has many advantages. The CHF method provides exceptional control of the bore and groove dimensions, resulting in excellent dimensional accuracy and tolerance. A cold hammer forged barrel has smoother barrel surfaces compared to other barrel manufacturing methods such as button rifling and cut rifling....

https://www.tikka.fi/en-us/content/campaign-subsection/cold-hammer-forged-barrel

As to why choose a cold hammer forged barrel? When it comes to long life and durability, many shooters believe that a cold hammer forged barrel is superior to barrels that are button-cut. The thought is that for a rifle that will be receiving a high volume of fire, getting hot, and having a large round count, having a cold hammer forged barrel is an advantage in that the hammer-forging process creates a barrel that can better withstand heat, leading to a longer service life. With barrels that are not cold hammer forged, under constant heat and stress, they can be more prone to throat erosion, gas port erosion. As a result, their lifespan is not as long.

https://blackrifledepot.com/blog/cold-hammer-forged-barrels/

All Sako rifles, including the Sako S20, feature match-grade cold hammer forged barrels. There are many advantages to cold hammer forged (CHF) barrels: they’re durable, accurate and have excellent tolerances. The cold hammer forging technique changes the structure of the steel, increasing its toughness and making the barrel life of your rifle longer. CHF barrels do not have to be broken in, but instead have superb out-of-the-box accuracy.

https://www.sako.fi/s20-cold-hammer-forged-barrel

Cold Hammer Forging of barrels has been known to produce accurate and longest lasting rifle barrels obtainable. The process also creates a defect free bore and the most consistent chamber possible. Many have trusted CHF barrels to be part of their foundation when building their duty rifle.

https://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-mountain-series-cold-hammer-forged-barrel-5-56mm-nato/

 

[Skylerbone]

A regular nitrited barrel is NOT better, stronger, more durable, nor will it generally last longer than a CHF barrel chrome lined or not.

Even Glock, M&P, Beretta, Sig, and most top tier handgun barrels are CHF

So are you saying Glock, S&W, and others are nitriding their barrels because they’re too strong? Would you like to post Rc hardness of 4150 after hammer forging? Would you like to discuss why companies cold hammer forge (quicker and cheaper)? How about internal stresses that must be alleviated (or aren’t by all manufacturers including Ruger) to reduce stringing?

Again why would Glock Tenifer treat a CHF barrel if Tenifer didn’t make it harder?

 

[DustyGmt]

I'm sorry styx, I could possibly get on board with your argument if your Bbl was CL but whether CHF or not, a nitrided Bbl is about twice as hard as an untreated Bbl and will stand up to wear better than an unlined Bbl. I got this from many sources including ARF which is the holy grail of information apparently. No hard feelings, I'm just not convinced that what you say is true. I believe that you believe it.... To say hands down one is better than the other, I'm just not sure. There are tradeoffs, I'm of the belief that full auto fire not being a factor, you're better off going with the nitride vs a non CL Bbl.....

 

[Stophel]

Which one should I get? I have not bought a AR-15 before. Not really sure what qualities I should be looking for? What makes a good AR a good AR? I’ve no clue when it comes to AR.

Not everyone is able to shoot a thousand rounds a week, nor is everyone obsessed with making all holes touch at a hundred yards. Some of us will never be able to wear out a rifle barrel of any kind. We don't all require top-of-the-line. For many of us, the S&W or the Ruger are perfectly serviceable and all we need. I chose the Ruger over the S&W a few years ago simply because... well just because. I like the gun. Though I do agree about the bayonet lug. Pretty irritating having a bayonet lug that doesn't work! I did change the butt and handguard to Magpul. The original Ruger butt has a hole in the top that will scratch the far out of your face. I think you can get the Ruger now will all Magpul equipment.

 

[Blnt4rcetrauma]

Buy the first one you see available, worry about the minutiae after November.

 

[Darth-Vang]

Thanks y’all I appreciate all the feedback. I went with the Smith and Wesson M&P 15. And it isn’t bad. Love it. Can’t wait to take it out this weekend.

 

[Stophel]

Now, have you got any ammo???

 

[Darth-Vang]

Now, have you got any ammo???

Actually bought a few boxes of ammo too. Got plinking rounds at the most. But hopefully I can get around to reloading those .223 rounds and 5.56 too so I can shoot more often!

 

[DustyGmt]

Thanks y’all I appreciate all the feedback. I went with the Smith and Wesson M&P 15. And it isn’t bad. Love it. Can’t wait to take it out this weekend.

Nice, good basic, quality gun. It will stand up to abuse and be reasonably accurate.

 

[mustanger98]

I don't, but I believe that if a gun is designed with any purpose in mind, it should follow that purpose. For example, if a Galil is designed to include a bottle opener, by God it should be a functional bottle opener. If a Sharps includes a coffee mill, it should be a functional coffee mill. In any case, if a gun has a bayonet lug, the lug should be functional. Otherwise, what's it there for?

Hmmm... anybody know of a decent bipod that mounts using the bayonet lug?

 

[AlexanderA]

Hmmm... anybody know of a decent bipod that mounts using the bayonet lug?

The old, original bipod (from the 1960's) works like a clothespin, and clips on the barrel behind the bayonet lug.

Newer bipods tend to be designed for railed forends. I don't know of any that use the bayonet lug.

 

[sequins]

Hmmm... anybody know of a decent bipod that mounts using the bayonet lug?

https://www.harrisbipods.com/bipods.php?

a LOT of these are swivel attachment, and Harris is held in pretty high regard.

 

[AlexanderA]

https://www.harrisbipods.com/bipods.php?

a LOT of these are swivel attachment, and Harris is held in pretty high regard.

I don't see anything on the Harris Bipod page that would attach to the bayonet lug.

In general, I'm not a fan of Harris bipods (mainly due to those big external springs). Yes, I know they have a following, including in the armed forces.

My personal favorite is the Israeli-made Command Arms bipod. Simple and effective. Unfortunately, like many good products, this appears to have been discontinued by the manufacturer. Buy them when you can find them.

 

[Skeptic13]

I started with the Ruger and have been very happy with it. I bought it at a time when ARs were hard to find and it was available. I think I would have been happy with the S&W as well. I have since built a custom AR but still shoot the Ruger as well. When I bought mine Ruger only made the basic model. If the MPR had been available I would have bought that one. I like the adea of not having a fixed front sight and I like the 18" barrel as apposed to the 16".

 

[Swampman]

...In any case, if a gun has a bayonet lug, the lug should be functional. Otherwise, what's it there for?

I don't know, but the Colt CAR 15 I purchased in 1979 had the same nonfunctional bayonet lug, as did a couple of Bushmasters I was issued over the years.

My guess is that it's related to that whole "mil spec" chimera.

 

[Demi-human]

Why change now?

 

[Tommygunn]

I don't know, but the Colt CAR 15 I purchased in 1979 had the same nonfunctional bayonet lug, as did a couple of Bushmasters I was issued over the years.

My guess is that it's related to that whole "mil spec" chimera.

I was under the impression that all civilian AR-15s could not properly take a bayonet because the barrel must be 16" long. Perhaps I was wrong? ? ?