Smokeless Powder Muzzle Loaders

[grter]

Having to clean up immediately after using black powder is something I don't like and I can understand why people turn to smokeless powder because of that. It's not only me but it's the most common complaint I hear from others second to a dislike for having to go through the series of steps and procedures required to load muzzle loaders in general.

Why I would not totally but generally avoid smokeless powders even in a Savage 10ML2 is the fact that smokeless powder is by far a lot less forgiving of mistakes than black powder generally when it come to measuring the proper charge as well as the type of smokeless powder used coupled with fact that it produces much higher pressures. There are more variables that need to controlled with smokeless powder and a failure to control, a mistake made, is more likely to result in an explosion than with black powder.

Using black powder is much more simpler. I feel much safer when using a dosed charge of smokeless powder in pre primed cartridge case of proper size with the bullet crimped in place a safe distance from the charge rather than pouring it down a barrel and packing a ball or conical over it using a ramrod which has to be done with care and caution to at the very least get good performance.

If you put a little too much of a black powder charge it's alright, put way too much it probably won't blow up, do any of that with smokeless man I don't know.

I happen to be a fan of muzzle loaders that are designed to handle the pressures of smokeless powder but I would probable only do it a few times for familiarization and switch to black powder using smokeless only if I have to.

A peeve I have is people who insist that all black powder substitutes must be made to produce a lot of smoke. I think we should be able to use a clean burning black powder substitute that does not make a lot of smoke, corrosive dirt, and grime if we choose to, so why don't the manufacturers make it ? But that is another story.

 

[Snidely70431]

Having to clean up immediately after using black powder is something I don't like and I can understand why people turn to smokeless powder because of that. It's not only me but it's the most common complaint I hear from others second to a dislike for having to go through the series of steps and procedures required to load muzzle loaders in general.

Why I would not totally but generally avoid smokeless powders even in a Savage 10ML2 is the fact that smokeless powder is by far a lot less forgiving of mistakes than black powder generally when it come to measuring the proper charge as well as the type of smokeless powder used coupled with fact that it produces much higher pressures. There are more variables that need to controlled with smokeless powder and a failure to control, a mistake made, is more likely to result in an explosion than with black powder.

Using black powder is much more simpler. I feel much safer when using a dosed charge of smokeless powder in pre primed cartridge case of proper size with the bullet crimped in place a safe distance from the charge rather than pouring it down a barrel and packing a ball or conical over it using a ramrod which has to be done with care and caution to at the very least get good performance.

If you put a little too much of a black powder charge it's alright, put way too much it probably won't blow up, do any of that with smokeless man I don't know.

I happen to be a fan of muzzle loaders that are designed to handle the pressures of smokeless powder but I would probable only do it a few times for familiarization and switch to black powder using smokeless only if I have to.

A peeve I have is people who insist that all black powder substitutes must be made to produce a lot of smoke. I think we should be able to use a clean burning black powder substitute that does not make a lot of smoke, corrosive dirt, and grime if we choose to, so why don't the manufacturers make it ? But that is another story.

As I read your post, you want a smokeless powder that burns clean, does not foul your piece, can be safely overloaded, and is non-corrosive. Not asking for much, are you? The traditionalists on this forum will want you tarred and feathered.

 

[Stormson]

As I read your post, you want a smokeless powder that burns clean, does not foul your piece, can be safely overloaded, and is non-corrosive. Not asking for much, are you? The traditionalists on this forum will want you tarred and feathered.

As I read it I finally realized that the guy JUST doesnt LIKE muzzle loading. He just described what hes looking for.. Its called a Remington 700 in .308... Or a thousand other rifles... Trying to turn a black powder rifle into what he is actually looking for is like trying to use a football bat...

 

[Undefeated]

As I read it I finally realized that the guy JUST doesnt LIKE muzzle loading. He just described what hes looking for.. Its called a Remington 700 in .308... Or a thousand other rifles... Trying to turn a black powder rifle into what he is actually looking for is like trying to use a football bat...

You conflate muzzle loaders with black powder, just as this site does. Black powder and the substitutes I've tried are a pain in the .... They have all the nasty attributes Grter - and I - don't like. The only good thing that can be said of it is that it is difficult for a person to screw up and destroy the piece and him or herself. A person who is risk averse will definitely want to avoid mixing smokeless powder and front stuffing. These people will also want to avoid hang gliding, riding motorcycles and fast cars.

What I like about front stuffing is that a single piece can be adapted to many uses without a huge expenditure on fixed ammunition. By varying the projectile and propellant, a .50 can be used on any game from rabbits to bison, which cannot be said of most cartridge firearms

 

[Officers'Wife]

Smokeless powder in a muzzleloader…

It's threads like this that make me miss my late uncle. I could just see you having this conversation with him and watch him shake his head then put his hand on your shoulder. I know exactly what he would say… "Old son, I've run into a lot of people that don't want to live forever. I have to admit that you are the first I've seen that doesn't want to see tomorrow."

 

[Mike OTDP]

I'll confess that one of the reasons I like pistols is that you can clean them a hell of a lot faster. A single-shot pistol with a patent breech can be cleaned, dried, oiled, and reassembled in 10 minutes or so. As opposed to a half-hour or more of scrubbing a rifle-musket.

 

[MCgunner]

Last I looked, nobody mentioned anything about hunting, or using smokeless to push the envelope of what a given rifle can do. If you like a big flash and bang, cloud of acrid smoke and having to clean your piece immediately lest it be ruined, go for it. Different strokes for different folks.

And, if you are allergic to that, there's always BH209. If I wanna shoot smokeless, I have a LOT more smokeless cartridge rifles than I do muzzle loaders...exactly 3 rifles. Loading a round in my 7 Rem Mag or my .308 or my .257 Roberts is a lot easier, too. Why tempt fate with a muzzle loader when a breech loading cartridge gun is a lot easier and simpler?

 

[grter]

I just like more options available to the muzzle loader. I do like a lot of flash, smoke, and bang. I think black powder can be fun to use for recreation and no doubt for historic reenactments.. While I find that cleaning can be tedious it can also be enjoyable. What I never like is the fact that if you don't clean quickly your gun has a very good chance of rusting badly.

The fact that one muzzleloader can be loaded with a large variety of charges and types of projectiles is a very good point. With black powder you can make adjustments to your charge and load in a safe linear way. If I were out on a hunting trip during muzzleloading season i would want the versatility of black powder without the a big cloud of smoke obstructing the view of my backstop and the game I am hunting. This can also make things unpredictable. I would also like to not have to worry about immediately cleaning up black powder or pyrodex etc.... fowling when I am outdoors.

Blackhorn 209 is great from what I hear but requires powerful shotgun primers to ignite reliably. People who use flintlocks and percussion arms may not be able to use Blackhorn 209. Why not make a black powder substitute that burns clean and does not make a ton of smoke for the purposes mentioned. Just another choice. Other options are not always a bad thing.

 

[arcticap]

There may be more new muzzle loading powders invented some day, but until then we have a pretty good selection at this time in history.
I was curious to see if folks can use Blackhorn 209 in older style inlines and someone said that they use it with a small booster charge just like flintlock shooters do with 777 or the other subs..
I suppose that even traditional guns can utilize BH 209 to shoot patched round balls if the proper plastic sub bases are installed over the powder to seal off the powder charge so that it can ignite.
But that won't stop folks from wishing for another powder that's even better, that doesn't leave any residue that needs to be cleaned.

The reason that most of us shoot muzzle loaders is to relax and to enjoy the whole loading process and shooting large pieces of lead in a comfortable way.
But if the BP guns begin utilizing more powerful smokeless powders than they already do, they will be re-classified by the government.
And some if not a majority of states will outlaw it for hunting or mandate restrictions.

As it is we get to enjoy shooting the largest caliber guns without restrictions that the modern shooters can't possibly shoot, especially on the cheap like we can.
You know what I mean, the large bores, as large as you could ever want, the 8 bores and the 4 bores, the cannons, mortars and the July 4th noise makers.
So in exchange, we need to pay the price of the little labor needed to clean them.

There probably isn't any Holy Grail of powder on the near horizon.
Even Blackhorn 209 needs solvents to clean.
When NAA tried marketing their mini-22 C&B as being able to be loaded with Bullseye, the government warned that it was ready to reclassify them as modern firearms if they didn't stop.
We the people can't seem to have it both ways, to have guns classified both as antiques and to be able to match modern firearms in every other respect.

I'm surprised that the Fed's even allow the smokeless Blackorn 209 to fly under the radar that would restrict some guns as being too modern.
That's why no manufacturer is going to endorse the use of other smokeless powders for muzzle loading unless it's just more or less the same.
Not unless a person wants to compete against the ease of using cartridge firearms or challenge the system that we all voluntarily live by and try to change it.
It's not easy to fight City Hall.
Meanwhile keep dreaming about how the grass is always greener on the other side....

 

[Stormson]

And THAT, my friend, is why should ALWAYS get out and vote... And vote for the American Constitution, as it was was written, and not for any one person or party line...

There is a bill floating around to repeal the unconstitutional NFA by the way... Of course it wont make it THIS go round, but if enough of us continue to support it, who knows??

 

[rsrocket1]

BH209 is considered smokeless for the sake of hunting in some states. I know that Nevada does this even though a hunter has no real advantage shooting BH209 over say Pyrodex or 777 other than less smoke and easier cleanup. I clean my gun with Hoppes or CLP after a session with BH209 and it's a breeze. Some sidelock smokepole shooters have successfully used it in percussion or flintlocks but they often duplexed the load with FFFG or some other starter because BH209 does not ignite as easily as real black or the other substitutes although I haven't found it difficult to ignite with inlines and Winchester or Fed 209A's which are pretty hot to begin with.

 

[darkcloud]

and as we reach for ever more efficient ways to kill our game the seasons become divided and opportunities shrink. Our resources for hunting are finite and as technology increases the resources decrease. In our state we no longer have a muzzleloader season or areas. You just load up and hunt with the folks popping elk at 400 yards. I sorely wish it was back to traditional flinters and percussion weapons only but the genie is out of the bottle and he isn't going back in. NOTHING primitive about today's "muzzle loading" weapons

 

[grter]

Although many people will disagree I can see your point of view. A modern inline that uses modern, primers, sabots, and a state of the art scope is nothing like a primitive muzzle loader and their use is in my opinion a loop hole move for people not interested at all in primitive hunting to get their hunting season extended.

A primitive muzzleloader can be used safely and effectively however it's design requires more effort to do so and learning a skill set (percussion and flintlock systems) required to do so effectively and safely.especially in adverse weather. Range can be quite far but still not as far and effective as a modern cartridge rifle or inline using a sabot in most cases. I would imagine better stalking skills are required too in a lot of cases since you may have to get considerably closer to the game.

Given that, I don't think the use of a clean smoke free propellant that can be used in flintlocks and percussion guns is going to significantly change the limitations of a traditional muzzleloaders and the skills required to effectively use them. It will however enable unobstructed vision after firing. I can understand the restrictions on blackhorn 209 as the powder is formulated to be used only in straight primer fired inlines which I assume are banned as well in those areas that don't allow it.

I guess this will get me dinged by both traditional muzzleloader hunters and those who don't give a hoot about them and don't see inlines as a big deal in traditional muzzleloader hunting season.

 

[Snidely70431]

In Louisiana, we have a "primitive weapons season" that allows the use of a Handi-Rifle in .35 Whelan, which is essentially a .35 caliber 30-06. Go figure.

From a Baton Rouge Advocate 2014 article:
By Todd Masson

[email protected],

NOLA.com | The Times-Picayune

Louisiana's primitive-arms deer season has undergone substantial changes since it was introduced as a way to allow hunters to target the largest game animals in the state the same way their forefathers did.

When it was first implemented, only rifles that were loaded through the muzzle were legal, and hunters could use only iron sights or non-magnifying scopes. Now, a host of rifles and scopes are fair game.

During the primitive-arms seasons, hunters may use rifles or pistols of at least .44 caliber or shotguns no larger than 10 gauge, all of which must load exclusively from the muzzle or cap and ball cylinder, use black powder or approved substitute only, take a ball or bullet projectile only, including saboted bullets, including primitive firearms known as 'in-line' primitive firearms.

Also legal are single-shot, breech-loading rifles of at least .35 caliber having an exposed hammer that uses metallic cartridges loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder.