Snubbie "tactical" accuracy?

[Loosedhorse]

I was recently taken to task for suggesting that most people don't view snub-nosed revolvers as "long range" (I'll get back to that) SD guns. In the "exchange" that followed, there were many claims, but more questions than answers. Let's see if I can organize things a bit.

1) Theoretical accuracy. It may be that, in a Ransom Rest, a J-frame .38 is "just as accurate" as a K-38 8 3/8"-barrel gun. I have seen no Ransom Rest numbers on this--has anyone?

If no one has numbers, one reason may be that they don't really matter (see next).

2) Practical accuracy. One opinion I received is that what matters is that "the gun" is accurate (I assume, in a Ransom rest, for example); the gun-shooter interaction was called unimportant. I completely disagree.

There are reasons why a J-frame might be practically less accurate than a larger gun: less moment of inertia (so it is easier to jiggle the barrel off target), smaller grip, more recoil, harder trigger (especially in hammerless models)...

And perhaps most importantly, small sight radius, so that any given misalignment of the sights results in more inaccuracy at the target compared to a gun with a longer sight radius.

3) Individual accuracy. I am sure that my "practical accuracy" with a snubbie is not as good as Jerry Miculek's, and better than my daughter's. Some of that difference ("talent") is not addressable by practice time, and some is. For the portion that is, I still won't be putting in as much range time as Mr. Miculek, so even if we were of similar talent rolleyes:), my accuracy with a snubbie would still be worse than his, despite anyone's exhortations that I "ought to practice more."

4) Tactical accuracy. One of the missiles thrown against me was that "you never know" if you're going to have to shoot some sniper at "long range" (there it is, "long range" again) with a J-frame, so it is important to practice that.

Hmmm. I never really got an answer regarding what "long range" was: at what distance I finally no longer need to worry about returning fire with a J-frame on a sniper. Also, there seemed to be the sense that "lobbing shots in" is fine: as long as you're on target with some of those shots, missing a few is A-OK.

I thought about a more realistic scenario: an active shooter, with innocents near-by, so that if you miss, you're hurting innocents, not helping them. For the purposes of this thread, please put aside the legal, ethical, and tactical questions (other than accuracy) regarding engaging an active shooter with a J-frame.

Finally my three questions:
1) At what distance would you be comfortable taking that shot with a J-frame?
2) At what maximum distance "should we" be able to take that shot, and how do we get our abilities and comfort from the distance in question 1 to the distance in question 2?
3) For those concerned with this "long-shot" (pardon the pun) scenario, would it be worthwhile considering the carry of a different firearm?

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Under 30 feet a good snub will get the job done.

 

[Rollie]

I have several J frames that I shoot from sand bags at 30 yards with hand loads tailored for each. My 3" bbl. 36 averages 4", my 337 ( 15 oz loaded ) with Uncle Mike larger gripe ( not boot grips ) will do about the same. I just got a 640 pro, DAO, and by staging the trigger got a 2 1/2" group, but 4" is also more the average. In contrast my 586 L frame 4" bbl. runs around 1 !/2". This is NOT standing, off hand, and sight radius makes big a difference. It is much easier to get good groups with my Taurus PT99, and the .22 conversion for it, standing and offhand, than with the short barrels. It took a lot of practice and load work to get these groups, and a better shot could get better results I am sure, but it will give an idea of potential. Also a longer barrel will usually have higher bullet speed.
I would be very unlikely to engage anyone with a rifle, with a handgun, unless they were quite close.

 

[Skribs]

I'm not sure I understand the difference between Individual Accuracy and Tactical Accuracy in your scale. If I understand correctly:

Theoretical is what the mechanisms of the gun and the barrel are capable of.
Practical is what the entire package in the human hand is capable of.
Individual is what the package in YOUR hand is capable of, based on inherent talent, practice, and fit.
What is tactical accuracy?

 

[sixgunner455]

If what I think the most likely thing to happen to me is that I'll need to engage a sniper at long range, I should carry around a .30'06 with a mildot scope everywhere I go.

But I don't think that's probably the most likely thing to happen to me.

If what I think the most likely thing to happen to me is needing to engage an active shooter in a crowd, I should probably carry around an AR15 with a reddot or 1-4x scope every where I go.

But I don't think that's probably the most likely thing to happen to me, though it does have higher statistical possibility than the sniper.

The highest statistical probability is that I'll never have to pull my gun on another human being ever again in my life. Just in case I lose the game of odds and have to pull my gun again, I usually pack a gun around. Because of the balance of effectiveness, and likelihood of needing to actually use it, I usually pack a Jframe S&W. I practice out to 25 yards with it regularly, and I can hit a 12" piece of steel at 25 yards w/o any trouble, but most of my practice with it is 7 yards and in, and most of that is one handed at 15 *feet* and in, because the vast, vast majority of the time when a pistol is needed/used to defend a life, the attacker is at bad breath range.

Because the likelihood of needing in that kind of situation is much higher than needing to engage a sniper, I don't really practice for sniper shots with my Jframe. Maybe that makes me foolish, but I would rather spend my practice time, money, and ammo on something much more likely to be needed and useful.

I can't tell you how far away you're going to need to use your gun. No one can, because they don't issue clairvoyance cards in the box from S&W. You'll have to be the one to examine your situation decide what your threat probability looks like, and then make your best judgement for your practice and training.

 

[Striker]

....I usually pack a Jframe S&W. I practice out to 25 yards with it regularly....

So I'm not the only one......

I can't tell you how far away you're going to need to use your gun. No one can, because they don't issue clairvoyance cards in the box from S&W. You'll have to be the one to examine your situation decide what your threat probability looks like, and then make your best judgement for your practice and training.

Sound, logical advice.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Individual Accuracy and Tactical Accuracy

I thought I explaned it, but I'll take a different approach.

Individual accuracy (the practical accuracy for a specific shooter) might involve "I'm pretty sure on a good day I can get maybe 3 of five shots on that target at --- yards!" In the specified tactical scenario (the active shooter one where misses do more harm than good), it becomes more a question of, "I know, under the highest stress, that I will place this shot on target, period, no miss." Buddies goofin' off and bragging at the range stuff versus life-and-death consequences stuff.

I have several J frames that I shoot from sand bags at 30 yards

Thanks for the info. You also bring up a point that rolls into Skribs' question. Nothing says that in a "tactical" scenario you have to shoot off-hand. If you want to suppose that there is some rest to shoot from (a car hood for example, or just going roll-over prone) in the active shooter scenario, by all means do so.

I don't really practice for sniper shots with my Jframe.

"Sound, logical advice" also, perhaps?

But: two votes for 25 yards tactical accuracy for snubbies then? Longer?

 

[Skribs]

So in other words, practical accuracy is "if my only goal is to hit the target, can I do it?"
Tactical accuracy is "if my goal is to only hit the target, can I do it?"

Sorry, dont have much experience with snubs or distance shooting, I was just trying to understand the basic concept behind the question, because it is an interesting concept.

 

[buck460XVR]

Since I generally hunt with the majority of my handguns, I typically practice with them at ranges from 40-100 yards, even with my Chief's Special or 1911 CCW rigs. I often wonder when shooting even @ 40 yards, how any civilian could justify a shoot @ that range calling it SD. I mean, it's basically longer than the width of an average city lot......and yes, according to the bowlin' pins I use as targets, the 1 7/8'' J-Frame is up to the task.

 

[David E]

"Most" regard the snub as being effective at 10 yds max, if not closer.

Let's look at snub accuracy this way:

Intrinsic - what the gun itself can do

Practical - what the shooter can do with it.

And we will add Individual, what you can do with it.

If you came to me for snubby lessons and I had no root canals that needed to be done, one of the first things we'd do is have you shoot at 10 yds slowfire on a steel plate the size of a manhole cover.

I'd observe your technique, etc, etc, then evaluate. Let's say you had two edge hits at 11 and 4 o'clock, missing with the other 3. "Wow, that's the best I've ever done with my snub at 10 yds!" you proudly exclaim. I take your snub and put all 5 in a centered tennis ball sized group in 3 seconds.

Same gun, same ammo, same distance. Would you still think snubs are only good to ten yds?

From there, it can go two ways:

1) I point out deficiencies in your technique and teach better methods as you practice the new skills. Before long, you're putting all five in a pie plate at 10 yds. You smile broadly, as you realize the problem wasn't the gun after all....

OR

2) you say, "well, your skill level means nothing to me, this is the best _I_ can do with a snub!"

Is a snub harder to shoot well? Of course! Is it impossible to shoot well? No! It's not even all that difficult. But it begins with the realization that YOU can shoot a snub accurately at distance. For the sake of numbers, you should be able to hit a basketball at 25 yds, 5 shots out of 5 shots. That's a good standard to reach, but it's not the pinnacle.

 

[EMC45]

I will tell you that I have shot my Mod 36 at 75yds with shocking results. They are accurate. I also believe if someone shows poor technique with a snub they are apt to show the very same poor technique with a full size pistol. Barrel length doesn't make for a better shooter.....Practice does.

 

[BCRider]

Much of the tactical effectiveness of small guns has to do with how well or poorly the grips fit the shooter's hands.

The times I've gotten to shoot snub nose revolvers I found that the accuracy was there. But the ability to shoot QUICKLY with good accuracy failed if the grips did not fit my hands well. And let's face facts, the stock grips found on MOST snub nose compacts are anything but ideal when it comes to that issue.

Shooting any gun quickly and with consistent first shot accuracy comes when your hand "keys" onto the grips. If the fit of the grips isn't there the gun will be presented to the target shifted in the grip by some amount in a more or less random manner. And that is hardly going to lead to any sort of good first shot accuracy.

And for the sake of this discussion I feel it's a poor comparison to compare a regular no pressure target shooting scenario to a live emergency. The level of adrenaline and how it affects each person makes such comparisons simply impossible. A much more fair comparison would be a no pressure target shooting session to competitive match scenario where the shooter isn't faced with live non threats to avoid but instead is simply looking at performance and the desire to miss a piece of "no shoot" cardboard. The adrenaline is supplied in smaller but still significant doses by the presence of a shot timer.

 

[Loosedhorse]

So in other words, practical accuracy is "if my only goal is to hit the target, can I do it?"

I think that's fair. "On a good day", "Most times," "If I practice just a bit more I'll be able to do it really consistently"--that type of thing.

it is an interesting concept.

Thanks. What I'm trying to get at is the balance among a few things: our assessment of how much we should perpare for low-probability scenarios (like longer distance rescue shots); and whether the best way to prepare for that is to practice such shots with "classic" close-quarters guns like a J-frame, or consider moving up to a gun that's known for its accuracy at distance (opinions will vary, but let's say a nicely tuned 1911).

And one way I'm trying to get at that is figuring out (with all your help, since I'm no champion) what is the limit of the distance of a SD shot that "most of us" would take (or "should" be able to take) with a J-frame, if missing carried serious consequences.

I often wonder when shooting even @ 40 yards, how any civilian could justify a shoot @ that range calling it SD.

Valid point of discussion, that I would like to leave undiscussed for the purposes of this thread.

I will tell you that I have shot my Mod 36 at 75yds with shocking results. They are accurate.

So a vote for taking a 75-yard shot with a snubbie in an active shooter with bystanders scenario?

And for the sake of this discussion I feel it's a poor comparison to compare a regular no pressure target shooting scenario to a live emergency.

Agreed; that's exacly the difference I was trying to get at between "individual accuracy" and "tactical accuracy."

 

[David E]

and whether the best way to prepare for that is to practice such shots with "classic" close-quarters guns like a J-frame, or consider moving up to a gun that's known for its accuracy at distance

That's apples and oranges. If I'm really preparing for a 75 yd rescue shot, I'd be carrying a rifle.

Learning how to shoot a snub accurately at distance has little to do with preparing for a long range rescue shot. It has to do with maximizing (and discovering) what the little guns are capable of.

There may never be a 75 yd rescue shot required of a snub, but a 10 yd headshot might be.

 

[Skribs]

Thanks. What I'm trying to get at is the balance among a few things: our assessment of how much we should perpare for low-probability scenarios

Well, I've heard both that:
1) A self defense encounter is so far to the right of the bell curve, that statistics don't matter, and...
2) No matter how hard you prepare, there is something that will defeat your defenses. You have to decide where to draw the line that something is likely to happen.

Expanding on #2, let's say you prepare for two shots each on two assailants, so 5 shot snubbie is enough. Well what if there are 3 assailants? "I'll get a six shot." What if there are 4? "I'll get an eight shot." What if an entire passenger van full of terrorists armor-clad from head-to-toe weilding RPKs with 100 round drums and...well you get the point. You're screwed, but since that will most likely not happen, its not a big deal if you're not prepared with your riot shield and flamethrower for that scenario.

Applying it here, I'd say that if there's a sniper, you're far more likely to find cover before you find him, and if you find him, he can pick out the guy aiming a gun at him. In that scenario, I'd rather figure out the general direction the bullets are coming from, find cover, and call 911. A different scenario, I think, would be an active shooter on the other side of an establishment. You could put him down, but you might hit innocents if you miss.

My personal opinion here is that in that situation, you should move close enough to where you know you can accurately hit with your hardware. For training, if you include distance training that's fine (and you should constantly be pushing the envelope for distance and grouping more than speed in that case, IMHO), as long as it doesn't interfere with your training on close-quarters tactics.

 

[Loosedhorse]

That's apples and oranges.

Perhaps why I made it a separate question, then. I'd carry a rifle, too, but that's not possible here; a 1911 is, and it is a reasonable question whether I should spend my 100-yard range time with a 1911 or a snubbie.

Learning how to shoot a snub accurately at distance has little to do with preparing for a long range rescue shot.

I consider it as a potential reason to that one might choose to practice with a snub at longer range, so I consider them related.

For training, if you include distance training that's fine (and you should constantly be pushing the envelope for distance and grouping more than speed in that case, IMHO), as long as it doesn't interfere with your training on close-quarters tactics.

I think that makes sense.

 

[Striker]

Loosedhorse,

This is not a personal attack, but I think you are mixing apples and oranges so to speak.

First of all, accuracy is accuracy, you either hit the target within all the variables or you don't. Some may or may not be able to hit a target with a J frame (or other small gun). But because one can't doesn't mean that everybody can't.

You said above:

So a vote for taking a 75-yard shot with a snubbie in an active shooter with bystanders scenario

And here is where I think you're mixing things up a bit. Assuming for discussion sake that I can hit at that distance with what ever platform, doesn't mean that I will take the shot. Now we are getting into a tactics driven situation, and there are many more variables in play. I may well not take the shot, but I'll continue to train/practice so that I have the option to do so. When to shoot/no shoot is a discussion better carried on the Tactics section.

In the original thread, you basically asked (paraphrased here) "who shoots a J frame at 25 yards." I responded "I do" and gave my rationale. (and it appears that many others do from the responses received in the various threads on the topic). My intent was to answer your query, nothing more, nothing less.

Again, what works for me, my not work for everybody, so YMMV.

 

[David E]

, and it is a reasonable question whether I should spend my 100-yard range time with a 1911 or a snubbie.

I'd shoot them all at 100 yds.

But you should definitely spend some long range time with the gun you'll actually carry, since that's the one you'll have on you.

Seems simple enough to me.

 

[Loosedhorse]

^So, I should not take that as a vote for a 100-yard tactical shot, then?

you either hit the target within all the variables or you don't

No, I side more with BCRider. Some folks seem not to distinguish between no-pressure range accuracy and what I'm calling tactical accuracy, so I think it's worth separating them--and I have.

Now we are getting into a tactics driven situation, and there are many more variables in play.

Precisely why, in my OP, I asked that we (for this thread only) dispense with other considerations besides accuracy (with high penalties for inaccuracy).

In the original thread, you basically asked...

Actually, I asked nothing, and I asked nothing of the kind.

However, I have asked specific questions in this thread. Maybe we should stick to those, here.

 

[Sam1911]

[I've done all the editing I'm going to. If this can't run without snark, sarcasm, and bile, it's done. Up to you guys. If you care to have a discussion, great. If there's too much baggage amongst you all to speak plainly, that's too bad.]

 

[David E]

^So, I should not take that as a vote for a 100-yard tactical shot, then?

You cited 100 yds in Post #16. I copied and pasted it to frame my response to it.

 

[Guillermo]

if you can't hit at distance with a snubby, it ain't the gun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tied-t1fFsk

Knowing how much David E practices with a j frame, I would think he could match Bob's feat in the video.

 

[Loosedhorse]

You cited 100 yds in Post #16.

Sure, okay. Any thoughts then on the yardage for questions 1 or 2 (you kinda tackled 3 already, I think)?

There may never be a 75 yd rescue shot required of a snub, but a 10 yd headshot might be.

Sure, but we both realize that that a slower, carefully aimed 10-yard headshot takes the "same" sight picture as the 10-yard rapid COM shot.

But a 75-yard shot with a snub is (I think) going to require a different sight picture. Figuring out how much to raise the front sight, and getting so that's consistent? Could take some doing. Represents more of a time investment than trying to get a slow-fire "one raged hole" group at 10 yards.

 

[Old Fuff]

Unfortunately a lot of people think that long shots with a handgun, (defined to mean over 50 yards, although some would cut it to half that or less) is particularly difficult and out to 100 is next to impossible.

It isn't...

Say you take some B-27 silhouette targets and set them up at 10 feet, 25 yards, 50 yards and 100 yards. Without question the further out the target is the smaller it looks.

But the truth is that regardless of the distance, actual size of the target doesn't change!

On the other hand any movement of the gun is multiplied as the distance increases.

If you have mastered the basic principals of marksmanship you should be able to shoot (in slow fire) 4" groups at 25 yards.

If you can do that or better, and know the trajectory of the bullet you are shooting, you can keep your shots in the center-of-mass on a silhouette target at 100 yards. Practice is necessary, but not to an extraordinary degree.

I agree that circumstances requiring a shot from a snubby at 100 yards in a lethal altercation are rather unlikely.

But at the same time I have no negative feelings knowing that if I had to I could, even if it was nothing more then suppressive fire. When it comes to the possibility of having to defend my life (unlikely as that might be) any shooting technique or skill I may have is a positive plus. I have never handicapped myself by not learning something because someone else said it wasn’t practical.

But perhaps I’m being “impractical”.

 

[Drail]

The only limitations on practical accuracy with a snub are with the shooter, not the gun. It does take some work to become proficient with one but it will certainly not limit your range or accuracy just because it has a short barrel. Dry firing while watching the front sight move while you are cycling the action will show you what you are doing to pull the shot off target.