I know this is the internet, but can we at least attempt to have a logical discussion without being ethnocentric, relying entirely on anecdote, or comparing apples to oranges? It would be refreshing.
481 said:
That is hardly a "fact".
Actually it's a pretty broad generalization and depending upon the state (and in some instances, the municipality) in which you reside, not necessarily the truth.
I'd really hate to see someone lose their freedom following such "advice".
481, I have no desire to argue over semantics. The bulk of the post you are referencing addressed other topics. Even so I made no claim to know the local laws of every municipality, NOR did I give anyone 'advice' of any kind. I simply shared what I know to be verifiable reality, and my own personal experience owning and shooting an FsN pistol. Perhaps you can share with us where you are getting your knowledge on the subject, and provide some links to support your position?
There is always an exception if you want to dig for one. Obviously there could be some local law against AP ammo, in much the same manner as some municipalities have laws which make it illegal to tether your giraffe to a street lamp.
It is fact that civilians can legally purchase, own, and use of AP ammunition on the Federal level (for now).
It is fact that FN factory SS190 AP Ball is legal to own and available, though prices are inflated. Check Gun Broker - there are boxes of AP SS190 for sale as I type this, though the price is steep at $4 per round. This ammunition has been independently verified to penetrate NIJ IIIA soft armor (PDF from BrassFetcher).
It is fact that civilians are free to purchase and use ammunition from boutique manufacturers which will penetrate NIJ Level II armor, barring some local restriction. Elite Ammunition catalogs at least two variants of the 5.7x28 cartridge which have been independently verified to do this, priced at about $1.20 per round. The videos are on YouTube.
All of that said, the 'AP' ammunition debate is a Red Herring.
The availability of AP ammunition is only one small aspect of the FsN pistol. There is much much more at work here, and anyone who wants to know the truth about the pistol would be doing themselves a disservice to stop there.
Yes, the FsN has some shortcomings, but I don't believe the round itself is one of them. The expense of the platform is a limiting factor for sure, as are other things like expensive magazines and limited holster options. Those are legitimate complaints that the individual end user must weight against other platforms and other cartridges.
The problem is that many critics seem to be emotionally invested against a platform that they have no real experience with. That is flawed thinking. Critics will claim that the only purpose of the round is to defeat body armor, and that the AP rounds produce very limited wound profiles. This again is simply a distraction, rather than a legitimate critisism.
Any AP round will produce a reduced wound profile, whether the cartridge in question is the 5.7 or 30-06. The very nature of penetrating armor makes for bullet that does minimal damage. That is just as true for 9mm THV 'reverse ogive' rounds as it is for the 5.7x28.
Fortunately for those interested in the FsN, many other options exist for use against conventional targets. Even the relatively weak (and by far the most common) SS197 'sporting' rounds, when fired from the pistol through heavy clothing, will still achieve acceptable penetration and produce a wound which is a combination of fragmentation and notable core expansion. Again, more potent premium ammunition will produce significantly nastier wound channels - just like any other cartridge.
In fairness and truth, independent testing does not show any increased wounding ability with the 5.7 over conventional 9mm/40/45. Instead it paints a picture of a cartridge which produces similar damage when similar types of ammunition are used. Imagine that! No, the FsN pistol is no more lethal than a Glock or Sig to be sure - but it is no less lethal either. To make a claim one way or the other is to ignore the empirical data we have available.
That data set brings us to the only other legitimate criticism of the FsN and its cartridge. The sample size of shootings is very small. There have only been a handful of documented shootings with the pistol and cartridge. In the interest of fairness, however, the 5.7 round has performed very well in the few shootings that have been recorded. The limited shooting data that does exist paints a picture of solid performance. Some people will not want to commit to something with such a limited information, and that is a legitimate reaction.
Even with all of that said, there is still something left. Even considering the FsN's real world shortcomings and legitimate criticisms you are still left with a very light weight pistol that is very accurate, holds a great deal of ammunition, and is capable of extremely fast follow up shots. No matter how you slice it, that is a considerable list of significant real world strengths.
The subjective recoil Vs. any other pistol is very hard to quantify. For me it is very noticeable, but here are some real recoil numbers compared to a Glock 17 (heavy end bullets in the 5.7, light end bullets in the G17, heavily stacked in the G17's favor):
********FsN / G17
Impulse - .56 / .75
Velocity - 11.06 / 12.17
Free engy - 3.12 / 4.58
Even when the G17 is given the advantage in gun weight and bullet weight, it shows a 34% increase in recoil impulse, a 10% increase in recoil velocity, and a 47% increase in free recoil energy over the FsN pistol. And those numbers ignore that the FsN will have less muzzle flip, and change weight less as the rounds in the magazine change. All of that equates to faster follow up shots with the FsN not just from the first round to the second, but from the first round to the 20'th.
The FsN pistol and the 5.7x28 cartridge do have some significant foibles. Nobody is saying they do not. But real experience as well as hard data shows a pistol that can put more rounds on target faster than a conventional service pistol, and do so with a high degree of accuracy. That may not be earth-moving for many shooters, but it is far from 'novelty'.
The FsN pistol has many legitimate strengths that the average civilian shooter can use to their advantage should they choose to do so. Some shooters will choose platforms with different strengths that better suit their needs. Many will decide that the additional performance is not worth the additional cost when conventional pistols offer solid performance for less. Those are all legitimate options, and practical FsN shooters will not begrudge other shooters for choosing another platform (believe it or not, we own other pistols too
).
