So why shouldn't criminals be allowed to have guns?

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"The purpose of punishment should be to make sure the infraction does not happen again, it should not be used for revenge"

The only way to be sure would be to keep them locked up forever. :)

As things stand the loss of rights and privileges is part of the punishment.

John
 
Oh I read it and understand it, and as I pointed out Project Safe Neighborhoods (which is the program where local and state agencies, in cooperation with ATF and the US Attorney's Office, work to enforce 18USC922) is disarming the folks who don't follow the law, by putting them back in prison. Again, go to the links I provided and you will see examples of people that have no intention of following the law being disarmed.

You are saying the same thing he is, but you're presenting it as proof against his point. He says the criminals that aren't rehabilitated will still get guns, just illegally. That is exactly what you are saying and exactly what the examples you provided show.

His point is what about the ones who are rehabilitated, and will follow the letter of the law.

And to repeat once again: Many states already allow rehabilitated felons to submit a motion to have their rights reinstated. Yes, that's right, felons can own firearms if their rights are fully restored.


So those of you who are against second chances are just plain outta luck when it comes to people who have learned from their mistakes in many of the States in this Country. Guess you all have never made any mistakes before.
 
You are saying the same thing he is, but you're presenting it as proof against his point. He says the criminals that aren't rehabilitated will still get guns, just illegally. That is exactly what you are saying and exactly what the examples you provided show.
Now please pay attention because this is important to my point and maybe I haven't explained it clearly enough before:

18USC922 is a tool that allows us to put repeat offenders in jail for a long period of time, based on their demonstrated disregard for the law. Drug dealers, rapists, batterers, murderers, etc. that are caught with a gun during another minor crime, get very stiff penalties as a result of 18USC922.

Again, read the cases, the felons caught with guns, now matter what caused them to be caught initially, got very stiff penalties. I'd rather have guys like the ones in the examples I've posted get 5, 10, 15 or more years in with no possibility of parole when they repeatedly show disregard for the law, rather than get a 3 months on simple possession charge. Again, it allows us to punish repeat offenders that show a disregard for the law.

Besides your logic is severely flawed, you are saying the ones who get punished under this law are the ones inclined to break the law, so therefore we should get rid of the law. Using your logic only murderers, are likely to break the various state and federal murder statutes, so therefore we should get rid of the laws against murder.
 
The rest of your argument is IMHO, circular...

So here it is all now rehab'ed felons....Bottom line...if ya rehabilitated yerself, ask for a pardon or even better..lobby and work for an expungment law in your state...but ya see that would...TAKE TIME AND EFFORT ON YOUR PART.......

So much EASIER to let all felons just get em automatically again...even the ones who dont deserve it.

WildnowondertheantigunnerswinthelogicfightsAlaska
Absolutely correct.
 
"The purpose of punishment should be to make sure the infraction does not happen again, it should not be used for revenge"

The only way to be sure would be to keep them locked up forever.

As things stand the loss of rights and privileges is part of the punishment.

John
Also completely correct.
 
And to repeat once again: Many states already allow rehabilitated felons to submit a motion to have their rights reinstated. Yes, that's right, felons can own firearms if their rights are fully restored

So..no one disagrees with that...no one so far that i recall...

The principle that once you do your time your rights are automatically restored is what we are fighting over...

Ya'll made a "mistake" in the past..OK, go petition for restoration of your rights...OK by me.


WildthatsaneasyoneAlaska
 
Besides your logic is severely flawed, you are saying the ones who get punished under this law are the ones inclined to break the law, so therefore we should get rid of the law...

No sir, it is your inference that is flawed. I never said get rid of the law, I said that demonstrably rehabilitated convicts should have their rights restored to them after a period of time. Now if you are saying that you agree with that statement we have been arguing over a misunderstanding, but it comes across to me at least that you are against any restoration.
 
By your own statements he knows the government contract process very well after 35 years in the game at W-P AFB, which is very busy with many huge AF contracts. So he should know better then to write a contract in which he has an obvious conflict of interest.

He had a clear conflict of interest in drafting a contract himself, that would essentially guarantee that he got the contract. You claim he had no criminal intent, however in your first paragraph you provide a motive, by describing how he was apprehensive about retiring from his civil service job, unless he had a guaranteed "retirement" job.

Also, since I know a little bit about contract fraud, not a lot, but enough to see some holes in your story, and I think either you are leaving some things out, or your Dad didn't give you the whole story. There would have to be much more going on here for AFOSI or DCIS, to spend time to investigate this matter, and for the AUSA in that district, to consider prosecuting, in the case.

My Dad worked FOR the government but he wasn't a specialist in contracts or anything. He went around managing the installation of Tempest level video conferencing rooms at AFB's all over the world. (Including on Air Force One.) I'm not saying he didn't have any idea what he was doing was against the rules. But I've talked to others in the Federal government and more at the State level and they all look at me with their mouths open and say some variety of, "but everybody does that!" I know, I know, that's no defense. Dad screwed up and he would tell you that himself. He should have been more a stickler for the rules. But he was eligible to retire and he wanted to get the ball rolling on the contract. He let the slowness of the process frustrate him to the point where he just did it himself. As you said, he wrote a contract that virtually only he was qualified to accept.

This also seems to me to be a long way from "defrauding" the government since, in the final analysis, he actually was doing the job. He was doing it as a contractor and getting more per hour but the government wasn't having to pay all the things an employer pays a full-time permanent employee. No one has ever said the contract was for too much money or that Dad wasn't doing a perfectly good job. It was just the process of getting the job that got him in trouble.

When the investigation started, they told him to stay home until it was finished. Months went by. Finally Dad realized he needed a lawyer. In retrospect, he didn't get a very good one. If he had had the money to get some genius with lots of experience, this would have all ended a lot better for him a long time ago. For a while Mom and Dad weren't that concerned because they thought it would eventually all be dismissed. Later they thought he might get reprimanded and have to pay a fine. Even later he started to think he was going to lose the contract and the ability to work. Then finally the government decided he needed to pay restitution for all the work that he already did and for the flights he took to do the jobs.

I think a lot of people in the family were confused by the prosecution. I KNOW my Dad was. He finally decided that they were using him to get somebody bigger but he couldn't figure out who that might be. And then, when nobody bigger developed, the prosecuter couldn't just walk away without charging Dad. It seems like the prosecuter is trying to get a conviction and big sentence on this just to advance his personal career.

My Dad's defense lawyer was talking to him about this last year and said something like this: "The sentencing guidelines for this crime go from x to y. The judge will try to determine how serious the breach of law was. Let's say it is a continuum from 1 to 100. 1 is virtually nil while 100 is really odious. On that scale, you are about a 2!" So my Dad kept thinking it was going to be settled and be over. He finally even agreed to plead guilty to a felony just to get it over with. He wouldn't do that again if he could go back in time because it didn't stop. They told him it could take a year for a trial if he didn't plead guilty but it's been 8 months already since then!

Believe me, I understand that it seems unlikely that the government would be going after my Dad for this but it's happening. He never had anything bad on his work history. He had the highest possible security rating (well beyond Top Secret). Actually he told me once he thought that might be part of the issue. That his security level was supposed to be above reproach. So they wanted to make an example of him.

All this aside, back to the thread!! The question was, "did somebody in this situation DESERVE to lose their right to own firearms?" It's hard to see a "threat of violence" in what my dad did. It's hard to see how making him give up guns he's owned since the 1950's is somehow part of an appropriate sentence.

I think the family is a little disillusioned by the whole process. It seems like the government can decide to go after you for whatever reason and there isn't much you can do about it. You retain lawyers and they slowly drain your finances. Somebody who just retired can't really afford to spend several thousand dollars every month while nothing really seems to be happening. The government can just keep dragging it out. They can refuse to accept the recommendations of the court officials. (Which is what happened when the court PO recommended zero restitution. She didn't see why Dad should have to give back money for work he DID do.) It's like they hold all the cards and all you can do is watch your personal reputation slowly dissolve along with any money you thought you had put away for the future. I think the "convicted felon" label and loss of reputation is the worst for my Dad. He's one of those people who would die inside before failing to keep a promise or something. I can look at him now and see how much older he suddenly looks. The government has managed to age my Dad 5-10 years in only 2 so we all appreciate that. But that's all part of the hell of it. You lose your reputation. You lose your ability to work. You lose a heck of a lot of money to your own lawyers. You get all the stress you could ever want. And yet none of that is even part of the sentencing! My parents are going to be making "easy monthly payments" on the fine and restitution for the rest of their lives.

Yeah, that's fair.

Gregg
 
I just found a press release from the government about this whole thing. I remember my dad being furious about the wording because he said "the facts were wrong" on some of this.

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/ohs/Press/01-30-04-Day.htm

Notice that the press release was in January. (That's when he pled guilty to the felony.) Notice they say the sentencing was going to be in April. The government delayed that and then delayed it again. Now it is scheduled for the end of this month but nobody knows yet if it will actually take place!

"Swift and certain justice."
 
PBIR - would like to know what states allow one to petition to get thier rights back and where one could find that info - know a person would would be highly interested in that info (the person i meantioned earlier in this thread....)

J/Tharg!
 
You can start with Tennessee for one. I'll post the others up here when I dig up the magazine I read it in.
 
tusamal,

I know this is difficult because it's your Dad, but there are some problems here:
As you said, he wrote a contract that virtually only he was qualified to accept.

This also seems to me to be a long way from "defrauding" the government since, in the final analysis, he actually was doing the job.
Sorry this is fraud, because it's supposed to be a competitive bidding process, and your father elminated the possibility of competition by tailoring the contract to fit only himself. However there must be more to the story because I know agents with AFOSI and DCIS (the two possible agencies with jurisdiction over DoD contract fraud) and the they are working bigger cases than that and would have a hard time finding an AUSA the would be willing to worry about that case, unless it's bigger than you are describing.

In addition AUSAs are busy people with plenty of case work, they do not go looking for small cases, just to put a "notch on their gun," because they are too busy with real cases where people are ripping off the government. Trust me you would be amazed at some of the stuff people get away with because the AUSAs don't have time to prosecute those cases. BTW, even if they were looking for someone bigger, prosecutors walk away from cases all the time, prosecutors didn't spend time investigating, the Special Agents with OSI or DCIS did. The prosecutor only looks for viable cases that are significant enough to warrant his time in court, too small well then he just moves on. This is especially true at bases like W-P AFB where there are huge contracts and potential for huge fraud cases.

Finally there is this:
He had the highest possible security rating (well beyond Top Secret).
There is nothing beyond TS, once someone has TS the rest is just what programs they have access to, but there are no additional clearances beyond TS.

Again, I know it's your Dad so it's hard to be objective, but the story you are presenting does not ring true.
 
Ok, this whole Dad contact fraud thing actually serves to illustrate some points even better. Ok, so what if he had been trying to weasle a better job for himself and got busted? He should loose the right to defend himself against human scum for the rest of his life?
 
1. How do you define human scum?
2. How does he lose his right to defend himslef.

1. Murderers, rapists, etc.
2. He has been convicted of a felony and cannot own firearms. As a 60+ year old man, this severly impacts his ability to equilize himself against people that would prey on him.
 
Murderers, rapists, etc.

Whats etc?..how about armed robbers? How about the guy that smokes the 19 year old kid that just raped his daughter and cops a plea to manslaughter? How about heroin dealers? or people dealing pot to schoolkids?

Hey somefolks think abortion is murder...hwo about the women who have abortions..

Point being is everyone has a differnt definition of scum, To me drug dealers are scum, to others on this Board, victims...so next the debate over which felons are deserving? I say...as I said before..

a. If ya cant do the time, dont do the crime.
b. If yer rehabb'ed prove it to a court..

Your burden, not mine

As a 60+ year old man, this severly impacts his ability to equilize himself against people that would prey on him.

Impacts yes, defenseless no. He can carry pepper spray. Have a bat in the house etc...


WildgiveitupitsnotconvincingAlaska
 
TechBrute said:
Absolutely not. There are plenty of non-violent crimes that forfeit your rights. Should Kenneth Lay be denied the right to protect his family from an intruder? Should G. Gordon Liddy be denied the right to protect himself from a mugger? How about the Navy guy in NY that shot the guy standing over his daughter's crib and then was convicted of a felony?
Claire Wolfe wrote an article about this is the current issue of SWAT. I thought it was a good read, probably due in part that she said was I was thinking.
 
The constitution protects the rights of citizens to bear arms...More specificly it says "the people", but thats another rant. I believe so long as the constitution applies to you, your right to bear arms applies as effectively as all the other rights do.

Ideally we should not be giving violent people a weapon, altho I think thats a bit further up the road considering the problem.
This reminds of a rant where someone mentioned a drunk driver being penalized by having to use special colored license plates to shame them... more realisticly you shouldnt be behind the wheel if you drive intoxicated so often that you need your car visibly flagged as a warning to other drivers.

If someones so violent or deranged that giving them a gun makes them a serious threat, why are they on the street to begin with?


Lets not forget theres a cost to gun control.
A dollar figure we pay out for the agencies that enforce it. Maintaining registration lists, carrying out background checks, inspecting each and every gun dealer or searching someones home with this as an exceuse all add up to a sum we taxpayers have to pay at the end of the year.

Then you have to figure what this has bought us. Gun crimes still happen, weapons are still on the street, the crime rate is as high as ever. we pay and pay with little to no results except for the enevitable harrassment when we want to get a weapon for our own needs.

Know what gun control stopped?
It stopped a homeless man from owning a pistol to protect himself from kids randomly killing people with baseball bats.
It stopped an old lady from getting a revolver to defend herself from muggers. It stopped a mother from buying a shotgun to secure her home and child from being brutalized by the nearby gangs.

Its sacrificed innocent lives to block a maniac from getting a weapon that he got anyway.

I dont like the idea of criminals getting guns, I dislike the idea of deranged people being let loose on the streets even more....but above all I feel violently ill at the thought of OUR government wasting OUR time and money when we got good cops that could well use bigger paychecks and better equipment.

No matter what you do, a gun is still going to be at the scene of the next big crime.
Lets stop trying to make the impossible happen and instead give Barny Fife some good quality body armor and the backup he needs for this job.
 
Oooh, I missed this thread on the first round...this could be a good one.


If you're well enough to be released, all of your rights should be restored (unless the Constitution or Bill of Rights already has an exception to it).
 
I believe so long as the constitution applies to you, your right to bear arms applies as effectively as all the other rights do.
The only problem with this argument is that felons constitutional rights are also forfeit
 
TechBrute said:
On the other hand, our society plea-bargains and releases criminals so quickly, I'm not sure I'd want a convicted murderer legally carrying a gat in line behind me at the McD's. Of course, the law doesn't neccesarily affect him, anyway. He'd likely carry wether it was legal or not. Only a law-abiding "ex-criminal" would abide by the law, and then what good is the law?
.

Under the current system, if a cop catches a habitual criminal in line at McD's with a gun, he/she can arrest the dude. Under the system you propose, he/she has to wait until he does something unpleasant with it.

I wish there was some kind of "happy medium" between the two extremes.

Some serial criminals just aren't rehabilitated, no matter what we think our system is based on. If they've demonstrated that they cannot be trusted, then I'm fine with restricting their rights.

Your example of the guy who committed a relatively minor crime many years ago and has been an upstanding citizen since is the contrary case. I think he should get his rights restored.
 
Some serial criminals just aren't rehabilitated, no matter what we think our system is based on. If they've demonstrated that they cannot be trusted, then I'm fine with restricting their rights.
Is that because restricting their rights makes them see the light and never do a bad thing again?

If they've demonstrated that they cannot be trusted then they cannot be trusted to mingle unsupervised with good citizens period.

Put them in halfway houses with strict supervision for the rest of their lives or until they can be trusted
 
joab said:
Is that because restricting their rights makes them see the light and never do a bad thing again?

If they've demonstrated that they cannot be trusted then they cannot be trusted to mingle unsupervised with good citizens period.

Put them in halfway houses with strict supervision for the rest of their lives or until they can be trusted

Actually, if you're talking about habitual violent criminals, then I would say that's right. We do generally let them out too soon, and you're right, they can't be trusted to mingle unsupervised.

And, no, restricting their rights doesn't make them see the light. It's not meant to rehabilitate them. It's meant to punish them.
 
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