So you have a CCW and...

[xiph0s]

Hypothetically speaking (after all its philadelphia, and i dont think you can carry there, not sure though) you watch this happen on the other end of the subway car....

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iHwb9A3hIA8W5GpXlTFL_zj8hqdAD933UJ2G0

Police charge man in Philly subway hammer attack
42 minutes ago

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — Police have arrested a man suspected of brutally attacking a dozing subway passenger with a hammer while other riders did nothing to stop the assault, the city's police commissioner said Wednesday.

Thomas Scantling, 26, of Philadelphia, was charged with attempted murder, aggravated assault and related charges, police said.

Scantling, who was taken into custody in a mental institution late Tuesday, has a lengthy record of rape and other convictions, Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey said on NBC's "Today."

The victim was treated and released from a hospital.

Ramsey criticized other riders for standing by when the assailant entered the train with his 5-year-old son, directed the boy to a seat, calmly pulled a hammer from a backpack and attacked a man dozing in a nearby seat.

At least 10 other riders were in the car, yet no one interfered as the attacker repeatedly struck the victim in the train car and later out on a platform, Ramsey said on "Today."

"They better pray they're never a victim, because if someone was attacking them that way they would certainly hope someone would step forward and help, and it starts with stepping forward and doing something yourself," Ramsey said.

Police trying to generate tips released surveillance video Monday showing the early Sept. 4 assault that was played repeatedly on Philadelphia television stations.

Authorities said Scantling was apprehended after family members called police. It was not immediately clear if he had an attorney.

"He has a long criminal history including rape, robbery, assault, narcotics violations," Ramsey said.

Scantling apparently had tried to hurt himself with the hammer following the attack on the subway. Family members said they were not initially aware of the attack, but had Scantling committed to the mental institution where he was taken into custody.

The victim, 20-year-old Dewayne Taylor, made his own way to a hospital and was treated for head and neck injuries. Taylor, who has been released from the hospital, said Tuesday he has no idea who the attacker is or why he was targeted.

What would you do? given the fact that a poor guy was being beaten with a hammer would you intervene?

This was discussed briefly on WBT with Jeff Katz yesterday.

One caller humorusly mentioned that hammers should be banned because they can be concealled and used to kill.

I understand what the law says, im just curious to see what pro-gun, pro-selfdefense people think about it.

ps. check it on youtube.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p4np9zJNtQ

 

[ByAnyMeans]

I think it is impossible to say when we were not there. Beyond the obvious "who knows what I would really do in any situation" you also don't have the luxury of getting the full grasp of the situation from a newstory. That being said I would hope I and many others here would help in this type of situation.

 

[Sean Dempsey]

In that exact situation, I'd have ran with the rest, gun or not. White guy shooting a Black guy in a subway in Philidelphia, there are so many ways that could needlessly and negatively impact my life and the life of my family. I'll call for help with everyone else. Say what you want about me.

 

[David904]

You know what's sad? I bet CCW is probably illegal on a subway.

If that's the case, I'm not going to let myself be crucified by shooting someone trying to kill someone else while on the subway. I'm not going to be suddenly portrayed as a felon and lose my rights because bad law wants to make me so.

How about that? In "The City of Brotherly Love" the law makes it so that you can't help someone in dire need without getting punished.

Philly is a craphole. A girl I knew well from college was raped and beaten to death in that city because on her morning jog she happened on a car robbery in progess. Her broken corpse was found at the bottom of one of those outdoor stairwells.

 

[Dope]

I'd love to say that I'd be a hero but I'd probably be frozen by the perceived impossibility of the situation. Or I'd vacate the area immediately. Unarmed vs a violent man with a hammer is not a good matchup, not to mention you obviously can't depend on others to assist you.

Dope

 

[mgkdrgn]

"Scantling, who was taken into custody in a mental institution late Tuesday"

Well, there is the problem. This is one of those loonies we aren't suppose to shoot ... just tell them to stop and they will!

 

[V1K1NG0]

I saw the video this morning and it really sickened me. Not too long ago I came upon the aftermath of a lady being beaten by a guy (guy on a bike beat up the attacker but took off before police came) at my bus stop.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381956

Some people leave, some people do nothing and others react.

When my mom saw the video on the news she started crying. She looked at me and said I understand, as she looked at the 870 I have on my gun rack.

I dont know how Police Officers, EMT's, Fire Fighters or Military Personnel can put up with seeing this stuff all the time. If your out there THANK YOU.

 

[rainbowbob]

[Police Commissioner] Ramsey criticized other riders for standing by when the assailant...calmly pulled a hammer from a backpack and attacked a man dozing in a nearby seat.

Did Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey immediately declare that Philidelphia citizens should arm themselves in order to deal with this kind of random act of violence?

 

[KBintheSLC]

Yet another reason I try to avoid big, liberal-infested urban areas. Salt Lake City is slowly becoming that way.

Considering the location, I doubt there were many CCW'ers in the area. Without a good weapon, it may be hard to thwart a raging psychopath with a hammer. Given the situation, as a bystander I think a solid strike to the back of the perp's skull with a blunt object, followed by a hasty retreat would be in order.

 

[Thernlund]

What would you do?

Something. Certainly not nothing. Those who stood idly by are a disgrace to the human race.


-T.

(I can see this thread getting closed. Not really gun related.)

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

You know what's sad? I bet CCW is probably illegal on a subway.

You bet wrong. That subway is neither an airport, K-12 school, state park or courthouse, so PA state law is silent on the subject, and Philly is not allowed to interfere legally thanks to preemption.

SEPTA or Philly can say what they want (and they do) but Harrisburg has a demonstrated tendency to smack'em down when they actually act on it.

 

[jakemccoy]

If I could clearly identify the original attacker, I'd do something.

However, unless you're right there viewing the whole thing unfold from the beginning, it may be hard to tell who's the original aggressor, especially since the original aggressor here had a 5 year old kid. There appears to have been no warning (e.g., no crazy dude yelling and telegraphing his next move).

Also, if you've never spent much time on a crowded subway in a major city, you have no perspective. In a situation like this, there's likely to be lots of commotion, poor vision, hysterical screams, and 100 random strangers moving in 100 random directions. Seeing the whole thing unfold clearly would basically be impossible because this is a 20/20 hindsight situation.

Further, if I got involved, there's a high probability I'd be viewed by others as the original attacker. One of the tough guys on this site might decide to show off for his girl, shoot me, and then ask questions later. No good deed goes unpunished.

This whole story is weird all the way around.

 

[JDoe]

If I got involved and stopped the attack would the police protect me from revenge by the attacker or others?

 

[Neocode]

CCW or no CCW I would have done something. Tackled him, kicked him in the head, something.

Anyone who wouldn't, has no spine.

 

[Armueller2001]

Do you guys ignore someone who is choking and not give them the Heimlich because you might break a rib? Do you drive by a car wrecked on the side of the road with someone inside?

 

[Hook686]

I recall in California when Govenor Reagan had all the looneybins emptied and some folks addressed the danger of these folks wandering the streets. Many still sleep under bridges, ride Regional Transit at all hours and seem to be a gas stations and convience stores looking for a hand out. I am always concerned about such an encounter ever since these folks were released to the streets.

I sure do not know how to handle the situation. Does anyone have a plan ?

 

[JCMAG]

TheLastBoyScout is correct. Philadelphia's lone, state recognized exception to total pre-emption is that you need a CCW for open carry, in so far as I am aware.

At my Sheriff's office (central PA) there is a sign "recommending" that citizens of the commonwealth do not take their firearms into Philadelphia.

FYI, although it is entirely legal to openly carry in Philadelphia if you have a CCW license, it would be damned foolish. From what the good gentleman at the pafoa.com (Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association), the police there will find--ie., invent-- a reason to disarm you and put you in jail.

That said, in a city like Philadelphia I don't think honest citizens have much of a hope for being protected by armed peers. Apparently they don't have much of a hope for deliverance by unarmed peers, either.

It is sad.

To give you an idea of the police to firearm mentality in the Philadelphia area: A police chief from the metropolitan area spoke at my father's CCW class that he took voluntarily as a brush up. The chief said, in no uncertain terms, that if he sees a firearm (ie., open carry) he will arrest you with whatever charge he deems necessary. He did not seem interested in knowing that open carry is legal in PA.

That said, this is an illustration of why CCW education (education about the existence and nature of CCW) should be more prolific. It's a damned shame.

 

[Sean Dempsey]

Do you guys ignore someone who is choking and not give them the Heimlich because you might break a rib? Do you drive by a car wrecked on the side of the road with someone inside?

That's a horrible strawman. If I try to save someone from choking, there's no risk that I'll begin choking too, possibly worse than the first guy.

If I pull over and assist in a wreck, there's little risk that I'll suddenly be trapped in a wrecked car. Might get hit by traffic, but that's a different risk.

I get your guys' opinion on helping, but here's how I'd see it going down:

Guy starts attacking with hammer, people scatter. I run to the rescue and try to grab or hit the guy. Since it's a moving train, and frankly I am not a martial artist, I miss or clumsily grab and the guy turns on me now. I go to stop him, but he's swinging the hammer. I try to punch him, but my punches are glancing and weak due to the chaos.

He catches me across the eyes with the hammer, and I am now blind in one eye. Oh, and charged and convicted of assault, because he was mentally unstable and liberals defended him.

OR, say I have a gun: I draw my weapon and order him to stop. He doesn't, and comes at me. I fire 2 shots towards his COM, neither of which seem to affect his lung to me. His body hits me and we go to the ground, and now it's a struggle for the gun. I am able to keep him from getting it, but in the process a few shots have gone off in random directions. The attacker runs off as soon as the doors open, and I get up to see 2 stray bullets found their way into other passengers.

Later, the attacker dies and I am charged and convicted of manslaughter and reckless endangerment (of the other passengers).

 

[jonmerritt]

Just shoot the victim, that way the nut stops beating him with the hammer, maybe. Maybe the victim attacked him the previos day, or tried molesting his 5 yr old kid. That would send me off the deep end!

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

OR, say I have a gun: I draw my weapon and order him to stop. He doesn't, and comes at me. I fire 2 shots towards his COM, neither of which seem to affect his lung to me. His body hits me and we go to the ground, and now it's a struggle for the gun. I am able to keep him from getting it, but in the process a few shots have gone off in random directions. The attacker runs off as soon as the doors open, and I get up to see 2 stray bullets found their way into other passengers.

Later, the attacker dies and I am charged and convicted of manslaughter and reckless endangerment (of the other passengers).

Why are you here? You should probably have this discussion in tactics. You draw your handgun and order the attacker to stop. If he does, you win and maybe save a life. If he doesn't and comes at you, you engage, aiming at his center mass and firing twice, aiming at the head and firing once, repeating until he stops or goes down. If he does, you win and maybe save more than one life. If he doesn't stop or go down and you have ammunition left in your gun, you're not shooting fast enough or at the right places, or you don't have enough gun.

You may still be arrested, handcuffed, and charged, especially if the attacker dies. If he doesn't, or even if he does, you can count on being sued. You get a good lawyer, and you may get out all right; broke, but all right. You get a public defender, and you may spend years in prison.

If you aren't prepared to take that chance, you shouldn't be carrying a gun anyway.

ECS

 

[jakemccoy]

I'd like to hear a LEO chime in. I can't even imagine a cop opening up firing on this guy in a crowded subway like this. I'm not just looking for opinion from the land of fantasy. I'd like to hear from a LEO who actually opened up firing in a similar situation.

 

[Griz44]

Bang, Bang, Bang, another one bites the dust. If I am carrying legally and the attack is life threatening, then the light is green for a deadly force action. There is no hesitation. The bad guy bites the big one.

That being said, I could not ever be in that specific situation in that specific town because I will never go there again. Philly is an overfilled crap laden toilet waiting for a flush and a brush. Gives me the creeps just thinking about ever going there again.

 

[firemax]

Talking big is not my thing, but I think I would intervene. I hope I would anyway. Every situation has its own dynamics. In a crowded subway car, pulling a .45 semi-auto and firing it might do more harm than good. If I could conceal carry a baseball bat, I think I would have no problem whacking the guy though.

 

[JackBurtonJr]

If you aren't prepared to take that chance, you shouldn't be carrying a gun anyway.

I am not sure where it is written that a person's willingness/unwillingness to engage an attacker of a third party is a determining factor on whether or not he is "worthy" of carrying a gun.

Last time I looked there wasn't a badge on my chest that said "policeman."

I may choose to engage... I may not. Circumstances dictate that... not the feelings of someone else as to how they think I should react.

 

[Mickstix]

Of couse the situation would warrent the action, but if there's a clear path to intervene, I "hope" I'd have the wits about me to pull the gun and order the freak to freeze or stop or something to that effect.. If he didnt, I hope I'd shoot his sorry ass.. (were assuming after all, that he's hitting the innocent in the head, repeatedly, with a hammer..) I agree with ECS.. If that's not enough to get ya to use your weapon, you probably wont be prepared to use it in SD either, in which case you shouldnt be carring a gun..