Justin
Moderator Emeritus
But writing letters is boring and hard! I want to fantasize about being Rambo's tougher, better-looking real-world counterpart! That's fun.
So, you say we need a revolution?
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But writing letters is boring and hard! I want to fantasize about being Rambo's tougher, better-looking real-world counterpart! That's fun.
bill larry
Member
M2 Is correct....but I guess the notion is rather scary, ain't it?
Koblenz
Member
I think some people are over-reacting to any mention of keeping arms for the primary reason we have the Second Amendment. Keeping a gun and saying one would be willing to use it to restore a democratic government doesn't mean that person would skip peaceful measures and immediately start shooting. Furthermore keeping a gun does not preclude writing senators, joining the NRA, contributing to political parties, etc., etc.
If you apply the same logic some have expressed above, it could be argued that buying a gun for self-defense means a person plans to immeditately grab that gun in any and all disputes, and skip less drastic means of resolution. In fact, I bet a lot of liberals have that exact view of gun owners.
If you apply the same logic some have expressed above, it could be argued that buying a gun for self-defense means a person plans to immeditately grab that gun in any and all disputes, and skip less drastic means of resolution. In fact, I bet a lot of liberals have that exact view of gun owners.
one-shot-one
Member
someone pleasse tell me i'm not the only one who heard john & pauls voice when you read the title!?!
I don't know if the numbers really stack up to make it look like the Iraqis and Afghans are doing very well. I haven't looked at the numbers lately, but aren't the body counts 10-100x what the US/Allied casualties are? Politically and probably on some moral levels they're doing more damage, that's for sure.
What I wonder is, if it came to what's being talked about here, would the police/military really pick up arms against the revolting citizens? Would they follow orders or would they realize that following orders would mean opressing laws for any children they might have?
one-shot-one - nope, you're not the only one!
What I wonder is, if it came to what's being talked about here, would the police/military really pick up arms against the revolting citizens? Would they follow orders or would they realize that following orders would mean opressing laws for any children they might have?
one-shot-one - nope, you're not the only one!
DMK
Member
Yea, one-shot-one. First thing that popped into my head was that song. Now it's going to be rattling around in there all day.
Actually, when you think about it, the words are mostly appropriate.
Actually, when you think about it, the words are mostly appropriate.
Titan6
member
John Paul Who?
You left out ''It's ALRIGHT!''
There are certainly a few heads I'd like to change...
You left out ''It's ALRIGHT!''
There are certainly a few heads I'd like to change...
DigitalWarrior
Member
The way I see it:
I have on several occasions promised to fight for the Federal Government. I promised to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States. I would do so again today. I sure as hell do not believe we are past the point of Ballot Box on the order of escalation (soap box, ballot box, jury box, ammo box). Ron Paul is running, that means ballot box could work if we work it.
I am going to tell you that I do not believe that my rifles will ever be fired in anger. But one day we may have a President who says "The Constitution is a G**D**** piece of paper", and Attorney General that says "There is no right to habeas corpus in the Constitution", a Supreme Court that says everything that exists is interstate commerce, A Legislature that says that "shall not be infringed" means "shall be heavily regulated", and a police force that is somehow not obligated to protect me but is the only entity that may do so. We might be subjected to rules created by people we did not elect. Right now our government is good, it does not spy on people, restrict their political speech, or imprison them indefinitely for political reasons.
However just because we have it so good, there is no guarantee our children will be as free as we are.
I have on several occasions promised to fight for the Federal Government. I promised to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States. I would do so again today. I sure as hell do not believe we are past the point of Ballot Box on the order of escalation (soap box, ballot box, jury box, ammo box). Ron Paul is running, that means ballot box could work if we work it.
I am going to tell you that I do not believe that my rifles will ever be fired in anger. But one day we may have a President who says "The Constitution is a G**D**** piece of paper", and Attorney General that says "There is no right to habeas corpus in the Constitution", a Supreme Court that says everything that exists is interstate commerce, A Legislature that says that "shall not be infringed" means "shall be heavily regulated", and a police force that is somehow not obligated to protect me but is the only entity that may do so. We might be subjected to rules created by people we did not elect. Right now our government is good, it does not spy on people, restrict their political speech, or imprison them indefinitely for political reasons.
However just because we have it so good, there is no guarantee our children will be as free as we are.
M2 Carbine
member
There is one more thing that would make a revolution a disaster.
I believe most countries/people around the world either outright hate us or are jealous of us and would like to see us "taught a lesson".
I believe at the first sign of weakness they would jump on the chance to gain some control over the US.
A serious internal fight would surely diminish our ability to stop a foreign country or countries from gaining control over the US economically and/or militarily.
I doubt either the US government or the "American Rebels" could fight a two front war.
I can just see our "foreign friends" declaring "marshal law" for our own good.
I believe most countries/people around the world either outright hate us or are jealous of us and would like to see us "taught a lesson".
I believe at the first sign of weakness they would jump on the chance to gain some control over the US.
A serious internal fight would surely diminish our ability to stop a foreign country or countries from gaining control over the US economically and/or militarily.
I doubt either the US government or the "American Rebels" could fight a two front war.
I can just see our "foreign friends" declaring "marshal law" for our own good.
When someone mentions this they assume that 100% of the US Military and Government would be used against any revolution and assume that 0% of the US Military would be on the side of the revolutionaries. This might be the case, but *if* a revolution or second civil war occured in the US depending on what actually set it off you can bet that certain units, battalions, and/or divisions would also probably split from the current government.
For an example take a look at Russia in September 1993. Parliment ordered the Russian military to fire on protesters outside parliment. The military turned their turrets on the parliment building and fired at parliment instead.
In any national civil war a good portion of the military splits. Part stays with the current government and part goes with the revolution.
Comparing insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan is not a completely valid comparison because of this.
That being said, no it's not quite time yet to vote from the rooftops.
DigitalWarrior
Member
This is the most wildly wrong thing I have seen today. And I have seen lemonparty.
Do you know what stopped the left/right bickering in our government? 20 people from another country attacked us. We then blew up two countries. One of which had nothing to do with it.
You know how to get the Outlaw Bikers and the Hells Angels to stop arguing with each other? Get a hippie to walk in and tell them the need for helmet laws.
Do you know the only thing most Shia and Sunni Iraqis agree on? Killing armed foreigners in their country is both noble and funny.
If a Marine and a guy in the Army start fighting, get an Air Force guy to break it up. That way the Marine will buy the soldier a beer after they finished kicking the airman around.
Hitler tried to conquer Europe, and he skipped the Swiss. Hitler was dog-piled. Under trade agreements, Europe is now federalizing. And the Swiss are surrendering their sovereignty.
Most would. They signed up to use their weapons. It's happened throughout history.
Though, I doubt in the near-term there will be any violent revolution. More likely, we'll slowly sacrifice our rights at the altar of "safety," and slowly descend into some form of dictatorial regime.
applesanity
Member
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If there was a revolution in the US, the vast majority of foreign countries would stay home and cry.
Like it or not, (I like) America holds that much sway in the world. Our economy hiccups, and Irish potato farmers will make runs on their local banks. Ah, globalization. Imagine if there was a revolution here.
Those countries that can stand on their own (barely) would do everything they can to preserve our union - for us, not them. Many nations out there would love to fill the power vacuum that we'd leave behind, should we go to war with ourselves, but they all know that it's one super-powerful vacuum that only one country in the world can fill right now - us.
Who will buy all that crappy anime out of Japan?
Who will buy all that crappy home decor out of China?
Who will be driving those cute little Volkswagons?
In return, where will the rest of the world turn to when they need to get pick up some McDonald's on their way to go see a dubbed version of "Pirates of the Carribean" while scratching their butts through their Levi's jeans?
Arrogant? Hell yes.
Oh, and it's much easier to hate on Jean-Jaques from across the Atlantic, than to hate on your neighbor.
Titan6
member
Kinda depends upon how revoltin' they were.
After all I signed on ''to use my weapons'' not because I love my country or freedom or support and defend the rights of all men. I am just a mindless automon set to kill-zap... or maybe not.
After all I signed on ''to use my weapons'' not because I love my country or freedom or support and defend the rights of all men. I am just a mindless automon set to kill-zap... or maybe not.
camslam
Member
While I agree that we are a long way from a revolution in this country, things are definitely on the wrong course and moving further every moment.
Look at the list of problems that exist in our country and the inability of our law makers to do anything about them.
While our country is not yet in a chaotic or lawless state, I have no reason to believe that someday it won't arrive at that point. Look at the isolated incidents that have happened over the last 15 to 20 years (New Orleans - Hurricane Katrina, L.A. - Rodney King Riots), things definitely aren't getting any better and it isn't even a remote stretch to see a day when our speech is limited, our firearms are taken away, and our general rights are diminished.
I for one don't believe that people would have to fight the armed forces of this country. Many of those that serve have conservative values and obviously have a certain level of patriotism to the principles that make this country great. I think many would join the fight to preserve liberty and what is right.
On a sidenote and this has been discussed before, our country is losing it's moral center more and more each day. The values and principles that made this country great have been lost by its citizens and are being replaced in large part by the millions of illegal aliens that come to our country every year.
Our traditional values are being replaced by 3rd world corruption on a large scale.
See where our country is in 5 or 10 years and it will only be worse.
A revolution needed? Yes. With guns? No. With values and principles? Absolutely.
Look at the list of problems that exist in our country and the inability of our law makers to do anything about them.
While our country is not yet in a chaotic or lawless state, I have no reason to believe that someday it won't arrive at that point. Look at the isolated incidents that have happened over the last 15 to 20 years (New Orleans - Hurricane Katrina, L.A. - Rodney King Riots), things definitely aren't getting any better and it isn't even a remote stretch to see a day when our speech is limited, our firearms are taken away, and our general rights are diminished.
I for one don't believe that people would have to fight the armed forces of this country. Many of those that serve have conservative values and obviously have a certain level of patriotism to the principles that make this country great. I think many would join the fight to preserve liberty and what is right.
On a sidenote and this has been discussed before, our country is losing it's moral center more and more each day. The values and principles that made this country great have been lost by its citizens and are being replaced in large part by the millions of illegal aliens that come to our country every year.
Our traditional values are being replaced by 3rd world corruption on a large scale.
See where our country is in 5 or 10 years and it will only be worse.
A revolution needed? Yes. With guns? No. With values and principles? Absolutely.
one-shot-one
Member
problem is (read these boards) you can't get enough citizens to agree on enough "things", "issues", whatever to group up in any serious way.
arctictom
Member
Until people are being rounded up and put in camps, and voting is suspended , its not yet time to revolt.
For those of you who are interested I highly recommend reading the following Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland. It's an examination of how a group of middle-age working-class men, certainly not "true believers," came to commit some incredible acts of savagery in occupied Poland. Having read the book, I wouldn't characterize them as "mindless" or "automatons." Rather, ordinary men coerced in extraordinary cruelty by 1) the influence of the Nazi regime (communicated through the chain of command) and 2) a sense of loyalty to their comrads.
I submit that men today are not fundamentally different from men 60 years ago. Only the circumstances differ, and circumstances change.
leadcounsel
member
An ARMED revolt would mean that American Soldiers would have to fight and kill American civilians. That would quickly demoralize our Soldiers and cause chaos. This is part of the entire reasoning behind having an armed society -- to effectively oppress a tyranical government of the people. No tryanical government will successfully wint a bloody war against its own people.
However, if the powers quietly strip away our rights to own guns, then any tryranny cannot be met with force and bloodshed, but instead picketing and shouting. Governments have found the way to stay in power is to take the real power (eg guns) away from the people. Yep, guns are real power and the governments of the world know this.
However, if the powers quietly strip away our rights to own guns, then any tryranny cannot be met with force and bloodshed, but instead picketing and shouting. Governments have found the way to stay in power is to take the real power (eg guns) away from the people. Yep, guns are real power and the governments of the world know this.
Koblenz
Member
I think what is more likely in the near term is a civil war, not a revolution. If George Bush and Ted Kennedy get their amnesty bill passed, we are going to end up with a large part of our population who believe the southwestern US rightfully belongs to Mexico. How long will it be before those folks have the numbers they need to secede from the union and rejoin Mexico?
retrieverman
Member
I don't believe a "revolution" would solve anything, but I firmly believe that limiting ANY AND ALL elected officials to TWO terms per office held. In my opinion, the problem with OUR government is "career politicians". It may not be a perfect plan, but it can't be any worse than the mess we have now.:banghead:
CountGlockula
Member
Heaven help us if the US becomes Nablus, West Bank.
This thread makes me super thankful to live in the good 'ol U.S. of A.
This thread makes me super thankful to live in the good 'ol U.S. of A.
TallPine
Member
I dunno ... I'm still waiting expectantly for New York to secede
Titan6
member
Not bad. Only 44 posts to comparing US Soldiers to the Nazi's. Figured it would have come in sooner given the topic.
Why not use the Helsinki Study? Must not be dramatic enough.
Edit: Rejoin Mexico? Yes shows a razor sharp grasp of the situation. They loved Mexico the corruption and immense poverty of the country so much that they fled so that ''they'' could make the rest of the world just like it.
Why not use the Helsinki Study? Must not be dramatic enough.
Edit: Rejoin Mexico? Yes shows a razor sharp grasp of the situation. They loved Mexico the corruption and immense poverty of the country so much that they fled so that ''they'' could make the rest of the world just like it.
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