So you think that Permitless Carry is legal in your state?

[JohnKSa]

Just be sure you know that there's a catch. A catch that could be problematic under the right circumstances.

FEDERAL law makes it illegal to possess a gun within 1000 feet of school grounds.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922#q

It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

Federal law defines a school zone to be any area within 1000 feet of school grounds.

There's an exception in the law for those with qualifying state licenses to carry. The law does not apply...

...if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

There's also an exception to possessing a firearm on private property within the school zone that isn't part of the school, so you can carry on your own property if you live near a school.

Otherwise, unless you plan to ensure that you never get within 1000 feet of school grounds, you can't legally carry without a qualifying state permit--in ANY state. To comply with the law if you don't have a qualifying state issued permit to carry, your gun needs to be unloaded and locked up any time the federal gun free school zone law applies.

Just something to keep in mind.

 

[JTHunter]

Unfortunately, in IL-ANNOY, not only are permits required for CC, there is NO OC permitted. "No Guns" signs have the "force of law" if they are legally compliant signs. And the time frame to actually GET your permit (after paying online) can still be as long as 18-24 months. Then there is the $150 non-refundable application fee. If you are denied a CCP, the state keeps the money (naturally).

 

[12Bravo20]

That is one of many reasons I keep my Mo. carry permit up to date. Missouri is a permit less carry state but you have more legal protection with a permit plus you can carry in other states with reciprocating laws.

 

[jmorris]

Otherwise, unless you plan to ensure that you never get within 1000 feet of a school, you can't legally carry without a qualifying state permit--in ANY state.

If the State says it’s OK, wouldn’t it be like using Marajuna in a State that ignores Federal law? Not an issue unless the Feds somehow catch you and decide to stack on charges…?

 

[JohnKSa]

I can see a few ways it might be a problem.

First of all it's important to understand that states are not homogenous regions. They are big areas and even if most of the state is gun friendly, there can still be locales that are not. For example, even in gun-friendly states like TX, there are areas where the local DA has different ideas.

It's not terribly uncommon for police to ask about firearms at traffic stops. If someone answered in the affirmative, the cop will know when he runs the driver's information whether or not the person has a carry license. If the stop is in a school zone then it would be up to the officer's discretion as to whether or not to push the issue. If the person decides to play a game of: "Who's the biggest !&$#@%?" with the cop (something that is a really bad idea for a lot of reasons), then the cop might decide to play his trump card.

If you ended up having to use a firearm in self-defense in a "school zone" it might be a potential complication.

If you have a wreck in a "school zone" the presence of a firearm can be an issue if the car has to be towed. Depending on the circumstances it might be a problem.

It's just something to keep in mind. If you know it's a potential issue, it should never be a problem.

 

[DeepSouth]

I’ve always wondered if that law included daycares. The nearest town to me it’s probably not possible to be in the city limits and not within 1000’ of a school or daycare.

 

[JohnKSa]

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921#a_26

Here are the definitions from Federal Law.

(26) The term “school zone” means—
(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
(27) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

I do not believe a daycare would qualify.

 

[GRIZ22]

Different issue but applicable to the topic.

A friend if mine worked narcotics in a NE city of about 140,000 population. As a Federal agent I often provided support in enforcement operations. State law allows for additional penalties for drug distribution violations within 1000 feet of a school. They had a map in the squad room with 1000 foot radius drawn around every school in the city. This is a city of about 14 sq miles. 85-90% of the city was within 1000 feet of a school. They would often lure drug dealers into parking lots to put the drug deals within 1000 feet of a school.

 

[JDeere]

Just another reason I keep my LTC. There are numerous other places that I can carry that those without it cannot legally do so.

 

[rust collector]

FEDERAL law makes it illegal to possess a gun within 1000 feet of a school zone.

This statement may be a bit misleading. The school zone is the prohibited area, as I understand it. That is 1000 feet from the school. If it were unlawful to possess within 1000 feet of a school zone, that would be a 2000 foot radius. Bad enough as it is!

 

[GEM]

Different issue but applicable to the topic.

A friend if mine worked narcotics in a NE city of about 140,000 population. As a Federal agent I often provided support in enforcement operations. State law allows for additional penalties for drug distribution violations within 1000 feet of a school. They had a map in the squad room with 1000 foot radius drawn around every school in the city. This is a city of about 14 sq miles. 85-90% of the city was within 1000 feet of a school. They would often lure drug dealers into parking lots to put the drug deals within 1000 feet of a school.

Excellent point. For grins, I took a different POV, that of choke points. I googled Middle schools and High schools. I found that the major roads around me all had such schools on them and if driving by within that distance is a crime, I would be boxed in. Elementary schools were worse as they are small campus very close to the road. Thus, I have a permit and will if they are issued.

As a side issue, the point is moot in some states and growing, if the opt in policy is adopted that necessitates a business to post a sign allowing you to carry (unlike ones forbidding it). That negates any useful day to day carry. For example, you go to a match, your spouse calls and says to pick up a Rx at the pharmacy drive through - felony. Not up on every state but NYS has such immediately after Bruen, NJ did but stopped by the courts (I think, unlike NY where the 2nd Circuit is all for any ban), Hawaii proposes, CA proposes. We await if Scotus ever thinks dealing with such is a priority as compared to their legal weeds, dominance games.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Our one gun club. You have to drive by a school to get to it. So im guessing they don't enforce the 1000 feet rule. Pa does have open carry. There is a catch though. If your in your car with the gun. And it's loaded and don't have a carry permit. You could get arrested.

 

[kje54]

I live in a city which means I typically drive by (at least) three schools regardless of which direction I go. Those schools are generally well within the thousand foot range..........

 

[Plano11]

I’ve always wondered if that law included daycares. The nearest town to me it’s probably not possible to be in the city limits and not within 1000’ of a school or daycare.

I believe daycares do qualify as a school.

 

[jmorris]

This is a city of about 14 sq miles. 85-90% of the city was within 1000 feet of a school.

Does the Federal law allow people to own firearms if their home is inside one of these circles?

 

[kje54]

Our one gun club. You have to drive by a school to get to it. So im guessing they don't enforce the 1000 feet rule. Pa does have open carry. There is a catch though. If your in your car with the gun. And it's loaded and don't have a carry permit. You could get arrested.

Thankfully we have extended domain laws be it your motor vehicle, bicycle or horse.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I wonder if we have extended domain laws here too. The stand your ground law does apply to vehicles too here.

 

[JohnKSa]

This statement may be a bit misleading. The school zone is the prohibited area, as I understand it. That is 1000 feet from the school. If it were unlawful to possess within 1000 feet of a school zone, that would be a 2000 foot radius. Bad enough as it is!

Good catch. I've corrected the error.

Our one gun club. You have to drive by a school to get to it. So im guessing they don't enforce the 1000 feet rule.

I doubt there are many places where states are actively enforcing this federal law. The point is that it could be an issue in certain circumstances and therefore it's important to be aware of it.

I believe daycares do qualify as a school.

Post #7 quotes the applicable definitions from federal law. It doesn't appear that daycares qualify since they are neither elementary nor secondary schools.

Does the Federal law allow people to own firearms if their home is inside one of these circles?

Yes.

1. The law allows possession of firearms in a school zone if the firearm is unloaded and locked up.

2. There is an exception in the federal law for private property within the school zone as long as that private property is not part of the school. The law does not apply to the possession of a firearm...

...on private property not part of school grounds;

 

[usaral63]

And............as Bedel Bumble was wont to proclaim "if this be the law, the law be a ass, a idiot". Maughm said it better with the call of do what you are going to do with due regard to the cop around the corner1

 

[.308 Norma]

Thankfully we have extended domain laws be it your motor vehicle, bicycle or horse.

I've always wondered about that. The local high school and middle school are just a couple of miles south of here, and the old highway is on one side of them, and the newer interstate highway is on the other side of them. I'd almost bet there's well over a thousand people with guns in their vehicles that pass within 1,000 feet of those two schools every day.
For that matter, there are even "School Zone" signs alongside the old highway. We drive right through that "School Zone" on our way down to the county gravel pit to go shooting, and sometimes we drive through it when we're going hunting.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Just be sure you know that there's a catch. A catch that could be problematic under the right circumstances.

FEDERAL law makes it illegal to possess a gun within 1000 feet of a school.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922#q

It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

Federal law defines a school zone to be any area within 1000 feet of a school.

There's an exception in the law for those with qualifying state licenses to carry. The law does not apply...

...if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

There's also an exception to possessing a firearm on private property within the school zone that isn't part of the school, so you can carry on your own property if you live near a school.

Otherwise, unless you plan to ensure that you never get within 1000 feet of a school, you can't legally carry without a qualifying state permit--in ANY state. To comply with the law if you don't have a qualifying state issued permit to carry, your gun needs to be unloaded and locked up any time the federal gun free school zone law applies.

Just something to keep in mind.

I didn't know this, but I see this is another advantage I have by virtue of having a permit even though Arizona has constitutional carry. This way I can also get better insurance, and if I were to visit another state that has reciprocity I could carry there using my AZ permit.

 

[bearcreek]

Certainly an interesting one. If I had to guess, I'd say this one is more than likely the most commonly broken gun law. It's violated dozens of times a day (probably hundreds during hunting season) in the small towns near me.

 

[F-111 John]

Just be sure you know that there's a catch. A catch that could be problematic under the right circumstances.

FEDERAL law makes it illegal to possess a gun within 1000 feet of a school.

This is the law, and you are correct to point this out. However, if people without permits in permitless carry states are going to get arrested over possession of a firearm within 1000' of a School Zone without a valid state-issued permit, then where does that leave people who carry in other states under reciprocity agreements?

Carrying in state X under a reciprocity agreement with a state Y permit does not protect you from the Federal School Zone prohibition, as far as I am aware, because the permit was not issued by the state in which the school zone resides.

 

[Frank Ettin]

This is the law, and you are correct to point this out. However, if people without permits in permitless carry states are going to get arrested over possession of a firearm within 1000' of a School Zone without a valid state-issued permit, then where does that leave people who carry in other states under reciprocity agreements?

Carrying in state X under a reciprocity agreement with a state Y permit does not protect you from the Federal School Zone prohibition, as far as I am aware, because the permit was not issued by the state in which the school zone resides.

And all of that is true.

The fact is that the federal GFSZ law hides that huge "gotcha" that most people simply don't catch. Perhaps someday we'll elect a Congress that would be amenable to cleaning that up.

 

[CapnMac]

This is a very apt thread. I continuously run into folk here in Texas who have no idea there are any number of "un-posted" places that are forbidden (because they always have been that way). Hospitals, Post Offices, Amusement parks (of certain dimensions); horse tracks, all manner of places.