So You Think they Wouldn't - Well Think Again

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I have no doubt that almost all police would follow the orders, but only for a short time. Once shootouts started occuring, and they had to use SWAT to go into every house one at a time, and the S really HTF, I bet many would reconsider their reasoning. I don't think any true American, especially those noble enough to be an officer, would be willing to go door to door shooting fellow Americans.

But I do agree with rick_reno that the US will never do that. I don't think the Blue-Caps would have any problem at all when faced with shooting those "no good, imperialist, iraq raping, oil hungry, gun crazy, phycopaths..."
 
food for thought

The 'order givers' do not care if you agonize all night about the confiscations, raids, and brutality you are to partake in the following morning; nor if you sleep spoundly relishing the thought. All they want is that is gets done.
Whether or not you liked following the order is of NO concern to them. The end result is the same.

Oh sure, they'd love it if you liked the work. They need folks they can count on repeatedly. But if their goal is 100% elimination of privately owned small arms, and all the 'enforcers' cry into their beers and agonize over their actions- big deal. The pols got what they wanted and that's that.

Something to consider when we all 'disagree' with registration/confiscation/unlawful orders, but do nothing to stop it.

C-
 
I'm with Old Dog on this one.
We have some pretty bright troops these days.

Police wouldn't lbe an issue for long at all once the word got out. Every feller and his dog would be on the streets hunting them. Bright cops would be bailing out of their cruisers, shucking their uniforms and heading for the hills.

Sam
 
longrifleman:
100%? How hard would it be for the command structure to put together a unit or two that will follow any orders? If you see other units implenting this type of order will you forcibly stop them? If you won't, the net effect is the same as doing it yourselves.

I'm much more worried about the police, because we have a fair amount of evidence that most would enforce this type of action. The ones that won't may very well wind up occupying the bottom layer of the first mass graves.
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I don't think you need to worry about the LEO population in my area. Most are trained in the old school (And yes I'm one of them.) The first thing you learn is don't mess with the old guys, as the saying goes "Age and trechery will overcome youth and skill!" :evil: The ones that would follow orders don't have the stomach for a face to face with someone their own skill level. So getting them to back down will be costly but it will happen. And how are they going to go around and gather up these gun's? chances are they won't have very much rolling stock to work with. I think you can see where I'm going with this. It's just like getting rid of bad cops, you just have to take the inititive and get started and the rest will follow. Now the polititions on the other hand will scream for the guard to come in and "save" them. But I think the Guard and active duty guys have a handle on this, and I don't need to go there.

HTH ... Jim

Sorry for the spelling but I just pulled a double ... yea I know get off the 'puter and go to bed.
 
Confiscation or neutralization is already underway.
One law at a time,
One ordinance at a time,
one caliber at a time.

Its only the .50 BMG for now
only the assault rifles,
only the semi-automatic pistol.

Ranges are being strangled to closure.

Safety and definitions rule and more safety for the children. Can you walk out in your yard with a rifle or handgun without someone getting nervous or calling the police? Can you shoot a BB gun in your yard? Ordinance here says no projectiles.

The laws are there when they want us, all we have to do is draw attention to ourselves and the bureaucrats will sic'em on us.

Zoning, taxes, compliance, licensing and ignorance of laws passed to protect you is no excuse for non-compliance.

I too think the lads in our military units will think twice about coming into our homes and confiscating our guns. A more likely scenario will be the LEO's knocking and forcing a fight while military units provide backup in case things go awry, like Waco. They are trained to shoot after being fired on. Ignition is needed and law enforcement would push first.

Of course that's just my opinion based on what's written and released as news by the media.

Vick
 
The thing that has me worried is how things like eminent domain are handled. I have never seen the police refuse to get into a standoff or back down when the owners do not want to leave their home.

Another thing is all of the stupid gun laws that are being enforced right now. I am pretty sure if I called the ATF and asked them what they would do if I broke some obscure regulation they would tell me they would be more than willing to do anything up to and including kill me over it.

I have seen many examples of police letting people go over silly weapons laws, but it does seem to be the exception to the rule.
 
When there was less government, less surveillance, less police, less population, less ethnic strife, less legal industry, and more community, more wilderness, more outdoor activity, Guns were not the evil things they are in this day and age. Now things have changed. If we, as gun owners and enthusasts dont change with the times, soon there will be no more guns in our society. I think it is as simple as that. Time for some innovation-some non-partisan communication on issues dealing with guns. We need to start talking to the other side and not cursing them. Though compromise is such a dirty word concerning this issue, I think there are ways to preserve our rights. But we have to win over the other side. Not impossible.
 
Old Dog, Mike, Sam,


With all due respect, would this be the same bright and loyal guys who trained and aided the murdering terrorists at Waco?


The reality is that when the time comes, and it will come, all that matters is that the press put the appropriate spin on it. Look at how long Waco was spun? I'm in no way defending David Koresh, but I think those kids surely didn't deserve to die or be tortured with lethal doses of gas. These exact people you are saying wouldn't do it already have. :(


I.C.
 
Also, if someone who is a naysayer would please reconcile this:

From the above link:
The police have publicly stated that only a permit from the health department was obtained, and that a Utah mass gathering permit was needed.
Click to expand...


With this:


From the U.S Constitution:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Click to expand...


Just a simple point to make.


I.C.
 
Insidious Calm, +1--ya beat me to it.

I have little doubt that there will be some number (I hope a large one, but who can know) of LEOs, Federal agents of various types and military personnel who would refuse any such order.

I know from personal experience that the "unlawful order" training in the US Army (circa 1982), while explaining that we had the right and duty to refuse an unlawful order, also made it extremely clear that you had better be right if you ever refused an order. Who determines if you're right? The officers on the courts martial panel. Sell the officer corps on the action, and you'll get most, if not the vast majority of, EMs and NCOs.

Waco, Ruby Ridge, Elian Gonzales, the ATF and LEOS in Richmond, etc. etc., etc. We know that has happened. All we're really discussing at this point is scale.

The wildcard is the reaction of individual gun owners. A lot, probably most, will cave and deliver their guns--look at Austraila and the UK. Many will keep some of them (in the US, the ones bought "without paper") and be quiet. They'll get caught, a few each week. Some, maybe just a very few, will let the authorities have their guns "bullets first"--Molon Labe and all that.

If those few cause enough damage, they may pull in some fence sitters and some of those who haven't been caught with their non-papered guns. And then they're going to be reading a certain book we all know about for tips.

Of course, the easiest way to keep this discussion is to be dag-gone sure that the order never gets issued in the first place. Vote, be politically aware and active, and so on.

Prayer is probably also in order.
 
As R.H. Lee noted, 2 loonies with a Bushmaster completely shut an entire metro area down for weeks on end. Now pay attention: 2 loonies, 1 bushmaster rifle, entire metro area shut down for weeks. Local retail sales plummeted, residents were afraid to leave their homes, for fear of being the next victim of a "white supremecist" sniper.

Needless to say, the above is not a worst case scenario.
 
If you want some insight into this discussion, then I strongly urge you to read Cold Zero by a former FBI sniper. Look at his attitude toward Randy Weaver and the Waco folks. He's a company man thru and thru. And there are plenty more where he came from, happily serving in alphabet agencies across America.

The military is different, but remember, they will be fed a line of bull about how those they are disarming are domestic terrorists like Timothy McVeigh.
 
Soldiers do what they are told and policemen have to pay the bills like anyone else. Ever heard of that experiment where they had people administering electric shocks to test subjects under orders from a supposed doctor? They administered "dangerous" shocks till the shockee's were screaming in agony- obeying authority. Only about 10% of people are non-conformists, non-followers. Unfortunately most of that 10% are not gun-owner types, or are people that the government has already forbid possession of firearms (if you know what I mean). A year or so of preperation by the media to turn firearms into a counterpart of the "drug war" or something similar- and then they will take the guns. I have no doubts at all that it could very well happen. I agree; there are alot of naive people on this thread.
 
Now that in and of itself is not what actually convinced me that American LEO's or Soldiers would exectute a confiscation order. What did it was the realization that the Israeli Army is largely made up of draftees and the US Armed Forces and Police Forces are 100% volunteer.
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Batten down the hatches on the tinfoil roof. I, for one, volunteered to upohold and defend the constitution, not urinate on it.
 
There was an incident here in New Mexico about 18 months ago involving the US Forest Service LE, cattle rancher Kit Laney of the Diamond Bar, and a cattle confiscation.
To make a long story short that section of the Gila National Forest was closed and guarded by law enforcement US forest service personel, brought in from other places so they wouldn't be sympathetic to the local populace like the elected sheriff was. They patroled the area armed with riot shotguns, high capacity pistols, and in paramilitary gear. When Kit Laney heard cows balling because they were brought in with out thier calves and their udders were full, he went to see what was up . He rode up on the corrals and found the goverment agents gaurding his hiefers and realizing the baby calves were left in the mountains and would be dead soon, decided to open the gate and let them out to find their calves. The LE's pulled him from his horse while macing him and his horse. Then charged him with about 7 assault charges, kept him in jail without bail for nearly 2 months then he couldn't go home till after the trial. The felony charges were so solid they were reduced to misdemeanors in the end, go figure.
The LEO's in this incident abused their authority, lied, participated in animal abuse, fabricated stories, and manipulated the justice system.
They demonstrated no concern for civil rights or the Bill of Rights, right or wrong the law, the law, the law, whether wrongly applied or not, Unconstitutional or not, the law is first and enforced. :barf:
 
The problem is politicians, not the soldiers or police.
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But the politicians arent the ones that get shot at when everything hits the fan.

I guess we should take consolation in the fact that even when the jackboots enthusiastically follow orders and are backed up by the full force of a modern military, something as pathetic as the Warsaw partisans or the Afghan mujahadeen can make their lives hell.

Then again, it might not even be that bad. Remember the Ukraine last year? Most corrupt and socialistic planet this side of Albania. They were going to try for another Tiananmen Square, but the army decided that it woudlnt help the government drive off the protesters. They even said that they would help fight the government if it came to it. Zing, instant new government, just add water.

Also, I am not worried about the blue helmets. Unless they get the swiss to sign up en masse for an invasion, they are going to be way behind the average american rifle shooter. I really dont have much confidence in the rifle skill of the average brit, frenchmen or african conscript. Besides the US and the Swiss, no other country has really put a heavy emphasis on marksmanship in civilian life or in military training going back to the late 1800s. A gun behind every blade of grass indeed.
 
Insiduous Calm,
I see where you are coming from and I am going to say "NO".
Those were not line troops, them were those "special people".
They think they are special sometimes too. Good and bad in every bunch.

Sam
 
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