Some questions about my new SA/DA pistol

[Hunter2011]

The pistol in question is a Taurus PT709.
First question, and to me it is the most important question of all.
If you rack the slide to load a cartridge, is there any chance that the pistol can accidentally discharge? That is with me not dropping it and no finger on the trigger while cocking it, ie no user error. It seems this pistol has good safety measures to prevent it, but has this happened before on a modern pistol like this?
The reason is I want to now, at home, test the function of the pistol, whether it feeds and extracts the rounds etc, without taking a shot or pulling the trigger. I don't want an accidental discharge. I don't really want to wait for the weekend when I can test it at a shooting range. I will rather make a fool of myself at the range then have the police visit me tonight

Secondly, I never carried locked and cocked. I am thinking I should start doing it. Must you first engage the safety before you cock it, or should you cock it first and then put on the safety? I am a shooter for more than 20 years but I don't know this Reason is I never used the safety of my guns as I don't carry one in the chamber. So my pistols were always safe as all the ammo were in the magazines.

Thirdly, as I only owned SA only pistols before, can someone please explain how this pistol works differently then a single action only pistol, as it is a SA/DA pistol.

Lastly it is said you can dry fire a center fire pistol and there will be no damage, unlike when dry firing a rimfire pistol. Why then do they make snap caps for center fire pistols?
Can I practice with this pistol by doing lots of dry firing without using snap caps? I suppose when dry firing the pistol is shooting in DA mode?

Sorry for all the questions, but I do want to be sure.

I lied, last question, should I dismantle and clean this pistol as received brand new form the gun shop?

What ammo are the most accurate in this pistol?

Its a lot of questions, but please bear with me

 

[Fishbed77]

The reason is I want to now, at home, test the function of the pistol, whether it feeds and extracts the rounds etc, without taking a shot or pulling the trigger. I don't want an accidental discharge.

You need to buy some snap caps if you plan on doing this at home.

 

[Hunter2011]

You need to buy some snap caps if you plan on doing this at home.

So true, why risk it.
But, what about all the guys who carry with one in the chamber? They are not doing that with snap caps.

 

[Quentin]

Yes, a mechanical defect could cause an autoloader to fire when cycling rounds through manually. It shouldn't happen, and I've never had it happen with scores of autos over 40+ years. But it could, so like Fishbed said just get snap caps.

Most drop hammer DAs allow you to chamber a round with the "safety" on or off. With the decocker on, the hammer decocks. With it off the hammer is cocked and you're in single action mode.

ETA:
You have to get used to handling the gun with a round in the chamber, it is safe if you and the gun are up to the task. A lot of shooting and familiarization will help.

 

[Sam1911]

If you rack the slide to load a cartridge, is there any chance that the pistol can accidentally discharge?

No. If you follow the instructions and load a cartridge, and your finger isn't near the trigger, the gun will not go off. (Barring an EXTREMELY unlikely critical malfunction.)

Now, your house might not be the very safest place to go about teaching yourself how to do this on your first day, but it can be done quite safely. If you're going to -- do what every one of us who lives with handguns does when we load and unload our carry guns: Find the safest part of the house (with a safe backstop direction) and, there, observing the four rules, load the gun carefully following the instructions given.

The reason is I want to now, at home, test the function of the pistol, whether it feeds and extracts the rounds etc, without taking a shot or pulling the trigger.

For that kind of more intensive manipulations, I'd certainly recommend snap-caps. No reason to do that with live ammo. Guns require LAYERS of safety, intended to MITIGATE risks. Function testing with live ammo sets aside some pretty simple things you could be doing to REDUCE the risks.

Secondly, I never carried locked and cocked. I am thinking I should start doing it. Must you first engage the safety before you cock it, or should you cock it first and then put on the safety?

Almost always you'd be chambering a round and THEN putting the safety on. I don't know if it is possible to rack the slide (so chamber a round and cock the hammer) of that gun with the safety on, but there's no reason to, and almost every other autoloader you'd pick up will require that order of operations, so get in the habit.

Thirdly, as I only owned SA only pistols before, can someone please explain how this pistol works differently then a single action only pistol, as it is a SA/DA pistol.

That's a little confusing.

Normally a "DA/SA" gun means you load, and then decock. That is, you lower the hammer without discharging the round, and then your first shot cocks the hammer AND fires the shot. After that, the hammer is cocked and each shot is fired with a shorter single-action pull (all the trigger is doing is dropping the hammer...the slide reciprocating will cock it again). At any point you can hit the decocking lever and lower the hammer back to the "safe" condition.

Taurus has gone a different direction here and this is intended to be a SINGLE-ACTION-ONLY gun. There is no normal "decocked" mode. If you carry with a round in the chamber, you'll need that safety lever engaged.
Why they added the "SA/DA" label is that they decided to make this gun have what folks call a "second strike" capacity. That is, if you have a dud round, you can pull the trigger again and it will raise the striker DA-style, and drop it again. Giving you multiple chances to try to make that dead round light off. (A bad idea, but a nifty marketing gimmick.)

Just forget about that stuff. It's a single-action-only (SAO) pistol, and that's how you need to treat it.

Lastly it is said you can dry fire a center fire pistol and there will be no damage, unlike when dry firing a rimfire pistol.

Yes. Almost every modern centerfire, and a lot of rimfires too, can be safely dry-fired.

Why then do they make snap caps for center fire pistols?

Because people want them. They make good training aides, useful for malfunction training (to simulate a dud or failure to fire), and for function testing like you want to do at home.

Can I practice with this pistol by doing lots of dry firing without using snap caps?

Check the manual, but I'd expect that you absolutely can.

I suppose when dry firing the pistol is shooting in DA mode?

Now, here's the thing. NO, you shouldn't be firing it that way, practicing that way, because the gun won't AAAAAALMOST ever, present that long trigger pull to you. To dryfire in practice the way that will help you prepare to shoot that pistol well, you'll need to rack the slide each time.

Sorry for all the questions, but I do want to be sure.

No problem!

I lied, last question, should I dismantle and clean this pistol as received brand new form the gun shop?

I always would. It is also really helpful in getting to know how your pistol works.

What ammo are the most accurate in this pistol?

Ask it. Seriously, you won't know until you try some. With a little carry gun like this, pretty much all ammo is going to be sufficiently accurate. Especially with Taurus products you'll need to make sure you find what brand and bullet weight is most RELIABLE.

 

[Hunter2011]

Wow, can't complain about all this good advice.
Sam, thanks for taking the time to type such a thorough response. It is appreciated a lot.

 

[Sam1911]

A pleasure!

 

[Vol46]

Sam1911 has pretty much answered all your questions, but I will add one thing, & reinforce one of his answers.

The 709 is made in Brazil & shipped to the US. The internal parts are often coated with a heavy black substance, that many say is intended to protect against corrosion during shipment, and not for lubrication. Field stripping, cleaning, and lubrication with a light coat of oil and/ or a little grease on slide rails, & locking lugs before firing the gun for the first time is strongly recommended. There are many good you tube videos on field stripping the 709.

When you are doing your function tests, and dry fires ( if you use snap caps), or when loading the pistol, do not slam the slide home with a round in the chamber. Always load from the magazine. The extractor is designed to have the rim of the case slide up under it from below as it is being picked up from the magazine. Slamming it over the rim while the round is in the chamber will eventually damage the extractor. When you want the full 8 round capacity, put 7 in the mag, work the slide to chamber the top round, then release the mag and put one more round in it. Never"load from the top" , always from the magazine. This is good practice with any pistol, but is particularly important with the 709. The extractor is easily damaged.

 

[Sam1911]

Great advice, thanks for sharing that!

I do hope that's the sort of thing that will get the OP's gun running, and keep it running reliably. The little pistols are always finicky, and Tauruses more than most. The only one of these I can remember seeing in person left it's owner "DNF-ing" a match because he couldn't get it to fire a whole magazine without a jam, which made for a very frustrating day. Maybe he just didn't clean it well.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

And now for some bad advise. Taurus does not include a decocker on the 709, however there is a way to carry the 709 where your first pull is double action instead of a cocked single action.

First always have the pistol pointed in a safe direction and have a backstop such as a clearing bucket with five gallons of sand in it. Second rack the slide and chamber a live round. Third while pointed in a safe direction, hold grip in right hand with your FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER, with your left hand pull the slide back like you are doing a press check. Keep the slide back about half an inch to where the barrel has dropped slightly below the axis. Fourth with the slide back slightly the striker cannot engage the primer, now pull the trigger. Fifth take your FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER and ease the slide forward again. You now have a live round in the chamber and your first trigger pull will be double action.

 

[Sam1911]

Oh.....YIKES. Sheesh, I think I'll pass.

 

[Hunter2011]

I just got back from the shooting range with it. 100% reliable so far with the only ammo I have, S&B Solids. It does kick more than I expected. I was told it kicks less than a 380 auto because my CP1 has a blowback action, but this does kick more. Even a bit more than my fathers very light and small Charter Arms undercover .38 Special which has very small and uncomfortable grips. But still easily controllable.

I did not take a paper target to the silhouette range so I could not measure by how much exactly my POI is out, but it is out a lot. It looks to be shooting 20-25cm low at 20 meters. I did not bring its sight adjustment tool to the range. So I would like to know if anyone might know by about how much I must adjust the sight to rise the POI by 20cm at 20 meters? How many turns or clicks, if this sight even has a click sound to it.

 

[Vol46]

Low and left is a pretty common miss for folks just starting to shoot a compact pistol like the 709. I wouldn't adjust the sights until you have fired more rounds. You should least shoot a number of strings on paper to see whether you are getting reasonable groups and where the center of the groups are.

What about your sight picture - the three dots on the 709 should be lined up, and the center dot ( front sight) should be held on the target's center, not just below it in a " 6 O'clock " hold.

When you are ready to adjust the sights, be aware that the 709 sights have a limited amount of adjustment - you will be able to see, at least on the windage adjustment, when the sight has moved as far to the right as it can by watching it from above as you turn the adjustment screw. When you reach that point, the screw will continue to turn, but the sights will not move any further (this probably won't be a good thing for the adjustment mechanism).

Again, I would try:
-practicing more with the gun, perhaps altering your grip and finger position on the trigger,
- dry firing to be sure you are not flinching as you press the trigger,
-shooting numerous groups on paper until you are getting reasonably decent groups
-perhaps shooting with a rest to see how much of the problem may be due to your fundamentals
-altering your grip and the position of your finger on the trigger as you press the trigger

Try all these things before you start adjusting your sights, and you may find that little or no adjustment is necessary.

 

[Vol46]

BTW, 20 meters is a pretty long shot for initial trials of a compact 9mm. Try moving in to 7-10 meters ( more typical self defense distances). That may help reduce tension and improve accuracy a bit. It will certainly give you better information to adjust your sights if needed. My 709 is surprisingly accurate for such a compact pistol, & I can be reasonably accurate out to 20-25 yards, but that is after quite a bit of practice with it at closer ranges.

 

[Hunter2011]

Yes, I agree, 20 meters is a lot for a compact pistol. But it is the closest target on the silhouette range. I will most surely take paper targets along next time.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

First thing to do is read your manual thoroughly. I typically keep the safety engaged on my semi autos when chambering a round. You should be fine not doing that though.

Modern center fires do not require snap caps unless indicated in the manual. However, they are a cheep investment that can prevent damage, and dry fire practice is very important. So my take is to just use them.

This is unsolicited advice, but carrying without a round in the chamber is putting yourself at risk…… unless you are The Flash. And if you were The Flash, a judge would ask you why you didn't just run away. Carrying with one in the chamber is safe with a DAO gun, or with a manual safety engaged. But do as you will, as it's your decision.

So the bottom line is read your manual carefully.

 

[Sam1911]

I typically keep the safety engaged on my semi autos when chambering a round.

Just out of curiosity, which autos have you found that to work with?

Obviously 1911s, xDs, and such need to have the safety off to rack the slide.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Just out of curiosity, which autos have you found that to work with?

My old Stogar Cougar, though that is safety/decocker. I assume beretta PX4's also work this way. The 92's and 96's do too right?

My old FNP-45 with a manual safe, fire, and decocker function all on the same lever also can be chambered this way. FNX's do the same.

I ordered an HK45 today and I'm pretty sure that can also be chambered with the safety engaged, but I won't know for sure until it arrives in a week or two.

 

[Hunter2011]

Usually manuals do state not to dry fire, despite it maybe being safe to do so with a particular model. The manual for this pistol also say not to dry fire. But what did people do before snap caps?
If you shoot your last shot on the range and you slam home the slide on a empty magazine, you have to dry fire to take the tension off the hammer spring. So even people that does not practice at home by dry firing, do dry fire their handguns every so often.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I've never seen a manual for a modern gun other than a rim fire actually say not to dry fire the gun. That is really weird that it says that. Well, you better get some snap caps then, hey?

 

[gamestalker]

First let me say, I have numerous Taurus models, including 709's.

The 709, and most other AL's can't be racked with the safety on. This is because the safety blocks the slide in addition to locking the trigger.

I would definitely get some snap caps if you plan on practicing racking the slide while at home. First off, you are minimally familiar with your weapon, so accidents are far more to likely, and it's simply just not good behavior to be unnecessarily working with live ammunition for this purpose.

As for dry firing, as long as it's a center fire weapon and there isn't a specific reason identified by the manufacturer, or obvious to the design, there is little reason to worry. I have and do dry fire all my CF weapons and have for decades, never broke a FP or damaged any other parts for that matter.

If it is a new gun it's always a normal practice to clean it first before shooting it.

A good reliable carry cartridge IMO, is my own reloads. I've had malfunctions with factory ammo, never had a single malfunction with my reloads.

GS

 

[Hunter2011]

Guys, just a last question for me to be 100% sure. I'm sure I start to be like a cramp that does not want to go away lol.
With this gun's safety features in mind, which are three, ie trigger safety aka Glock, firing pin block, and a manual external safety, which Glock does not even have.
Is it at all possible for this gun to accidentally fire when carrying it with a round in the chamber, due to a mechanical failure? I'm sure the chances are null for all three safeties to fail at once, not so?

 

[Sam1911]

A mechanical safety could always fail. But the odds are so incredibly slim that many thousands of folks carry guns thousands of days without any such incidents.

In other words, nothing to worry about there. You just make your gun handling practices above reproach and all will be well.

 

[HexHead]

Glocks don't have an external safety because they don't need one. When the slide cycles on a Glock, it only partially cocks the striker. A Glock is a paperweight until you pull the trigger to finish the cocking action, trip the sear and fire it.

And yes, on Beretta PX4s and 92s, if you cycle the slide with the safety on, it will automatically decock the hammer. Kind of unnerving at first.

 

[Potatohead]

Oh.....YIKES. Sheesh, I think I'll pass.

No doubt, I think I heard the stray round whiz by my head from the AD when i read that.