Some thoughts and a question regarding backpacks appropriate for a bug out?

[buzz_knox]

In many of the threads, we've discussed bug out bags in terms of the items they contain, but not in terms of the bags themselves.

I see a bug out kit as involving four components.

1. Primary kit (personal) - the basic survival essentials that will reside at all times in your primary vehicle (i.e. spare clothes, a couple of MREs, bottled water, water purifying tablets, flashlights, ammo for primary defensive weapon, maps).

2. Primary kit (vehicle) - those items which remain in your vehicle in order to deal with standard emergencies (i.e. oil, flares, antifreeze, fire extinguisher, maps)

3. Secondary kit (personal) - those items beyond the basics that you will carry on you given sufficient time to prepare (i.e. more clothes, food, ammo, water, etc.)

4. Secondary kit (vehicle) - those items beyond the basics that you can toss in (i.e. blanket, fuel, cooking stove).

The vehicle kits could consist of nothing more than sealable Walmart storage containers which you prepack and either leave in (in the case of the primary) or toss in later (the secondary).

The secondary personal kit could consist of prepacked pouches you hook on via webbing to the backpack.

All that leads up to the primary question? What backpack is appropriate for use as the primary personal kit? It needs to be light, roomy and durable, with webbing/PALS. Ideally, you should have two (one for hiking to get used to the weight and another ready to go) so cost is a factor.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

I don't know that I see things the same.

I view a "primary kit" as those things that will get me from here (where I don't want to be) to there, wherever there is. It includes basic shelter for the wife and I (easy, as security might require sleeping in shifts), dense (and potentially icky tasting) food sources, the best portable water purification kit I can afford, medical supplies, and the normal stuff we tend to talk about here on THR.

It's a set of essentials that in a worst-case scenario should keep us alive and mobile for a week. Note that I'm assuming "SHTF" != severe drought -- water's generally available in the South.

So, for me it's two bags, each with hydration and enough hooks and loops to attach extra gear. My bag is bigger than hers, and everything in it is waterproofed so I can use it as a floatation device and still have dry clothes and sleepwear later.

Secondary to this is a vehicular kit, which is more of the same, plus auto necessities. To be honest, I'm thinking a trailer hitch and a simple trailer might make the most sense -- it'd be easy to store potential SHTF supplies so they could be loaded, tied down, and covered with a tarp in 10 minutes with a bit of practice, and more water/medical supplies/fuel/whatever would be useful in a situation where I'm going to leave life behind for an indeterminate period of time. This also makes it easier to pack the chainsaw, some real shovels, rope/chains, and the other bits & pieces that might make vehicular travel through a disaster area more do-able. If I'm taking the car and enough fuel to go 1,500 miles (you've gotta love a TDI -- this is the internal tank and 3 5-gal drums) then I want to keep the car and not abandon it somewhere.

Having said that...

There seem to be two categories of bags you can go with. There are civilian bags (generally backpacking or climbing bags) that tend to me made of lightweight stuff and assume you'll be keeping everything inside them for load-bearing ease. They're mostly internal frame rucks.

Then there are the military-style packs, which tend to be heavier, less comfortable, and more overloadable. They assume you'll be tasked with carrying more into a combat situation than anyone would ever rationally carry, and try to make sure you can latch on as much as possible. They also assume you're in shape and are accustomed to pain, so strong (but heavier) materials and an external frame (or no frame entirely) are options.

I tend to go with the military-style personally -- an LC-Large is a good start, but there are better commercial options out there. Of course, I won't be carrying a sleeping bag (too big), tent, or any other typical "recreational" gear either -- for me, SHTF if about making it through, and comfort comes last. However, if we had extra room in the trailer...

 

[armoredman]

My antique Jaspar frame pack is loaded, probably over loaded. The wife has my old duffle bag, which can double as a backpack if loaded with much lighter stuff. Our BOBs are still evolving....but a lot quicker, now.

 

[Preacherman]

I posted this in my "Lessons Learned" thread, but it fits here too:

... since my spinal fusion surgery, there's no way I could carry more than a few pounds on my back without serious discomfort and eventual disablement. My response has been to go to a wheeled suitcase for my personal bug-out kit, and that will be replaced soon by a two-wheel bike trailer that I can strap to a load-bearing rig over my shoulders and round my hips. That way, I can pull up to 100 pounds with me, and not have too much strain on my back.

I suggest that anyone with back problems explore this option for a personal bug-out kit. One can pull a light trailer much, much more easily than one can carry the same weight on one's back. Of course, if you're going cross-country, this is not going to work too well - but if your back is injured or impaired, you don't have many choices, do you?

 

[Owen]

Derek,

The problem with putting comfort last is that a little bit of comfort goes a long way to ensuring your vitality. A smal tent, a lightweight sleeping bag, with a ground pad, and comfortable pack will greatly improve your performance.

When I was in the boy scouts my first pack was a large ALICE pack. I used to have a hard time with a ten mile day, because of the bruises, the top bar digging into my neck, etc. When I changed to a commercial external frame pack, I wouldn't stop until the sun started going down.

Also, a sleping bag will save your life. Sleeping outside in 60 degree weather, with a little bit of drizzle can kill you via hypothermia.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

The problem with putting comfort last is that a little bit of comfort goes a long way to ensuring your vitality. A smal tent, a lightweight sleeping bag, with a ground pad, and comfortable pack will greatly improve your performance.

But there's a down-side: bulk, and the fact that you can't very well react in a hurry when you're snuggled up in a sleeping bag.

I spent some time in Germany and never resorted to my bag, even in freezing weather. Getting out of the wind, wearing snivel gear, and wrapping up in a poncho+liner worked well there, and that's colder than I expect to find here. Throw that together with a good hammock and you've got shelter even in icky weather. I just wish it was big enough for the wife and I at the same time...

When I was in the boy scouts my first pack was a large ALICE pack. I used to have a hard time with a ten mile day, because of the bruises, the top bar digging into my neck, etc. When I changed to a commercial external frame pack, I wouldn't stop until the sun started going down.

When I was seriously doing the boy-scout packing thing, I was using a Jansport K5 (or some such -- huge, and had been used on an Everest expedition back around the mid-eighties when I was that age), and it got me through a 79 mile trip through the Sierras (Devil's Postpile out through the main gate), but not comfortably. I was 14, and didn't like 70 lb rucks.

In the Army I used an LC-Large, and it worked well on weekly 20-mile 40lb ruck marches (gotta love training for EIB). When I got out, I picked a comfy Gregory internal frame pack, which I still have and use. The thing is, it's not as practical in this role as almost any of the options that someone like Lightfighter carries.

I'm not thinking trails, and campfires here. My worst-case scenario involves trying to stay away from people, keeping out of sight, remaining vigilant, and staying armed and prepared for things to get even worse. Tents are big flags that scream "someone here has equipment and probably food," and when you're in one you can't very well see out of it to maintain a watch. Sleeping bags make it hard to sleep with your weapon, ready to react to contact or relieve your buddy when your turn for guard duty shows up. Fires are visible, stinky, and loud, so are only a survival option rather than SOP.

Maybe I'm going overboard here, but I'm falling back to training in my thinking, I guess. If things go downhill fast, then I'm staying here on 5.5 acres of rural Georgia, thanks. If this is no longer safe, then I'm loading up the car and moving someplace safer. If that doesn't work, then I'm in a very scary place mentally and emotionally, and I officially am not playing any more.

My primary kit is my "not playing" kit. And to me, camping falls in the "playing" category.

Though, to be honest, I'll reevaluate all this once I have kids.

 

[roscoe]

Preacherman, you might also try a big fannypack. Mountainsmith makes one designed to carry a 12-pack. Easy on the spine, even if the load is smaller.

 

[Jeff White]

How much do you train to carry a load like this? Before you plan your bug out gear, you need to do a physical assessment and see how much you can reasonably carry for a reasonable distance. 100 pounds from the basement to car doesn't seem like much. 100 pounds for 15 miles a day will kick your butt. If you don't get your feet in shape, you won't be walking very far at all, you'll be a casualty sitting on the side of the road doing the rucksack flop wringing the blood and water from the blisters out of your socks.

You need to think about your physical condition, how hard your feet are, what kind of socks and boots you are going to wear and how much of the 100 pounds of kit you plan on carrying is going to have to be water to keep you hydrated on your journey. The temperature is going to dictate that. Water weighs 8 pounds per gallon BTW and if it's summer time in CONUS South of Chicago, you'll probably need two gallons per person per day at a minimum.

Jeff

 

[crofrog]

Kifaru EMR

 

[dmftoy1]

My bob is just the same pack my wife and I use to to camping/backpacking. I figure that I'm used to it and it gets tested everytime we go out.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Mannlicher]

One real problem with carrying a primary load for the vehicle,is that in many cases, you would have to abandon the vehicle. A bug out bag for me, is something I would need to be able to carry, while I tried to get home on foot.
I live some 18 miles from work. To get home, I have to cross the absolutly worst parts of Miami. I believe that some day, it might indeed be necessary to abandon the car, and try to get home on foot.
My BOB contains among other things, a change of footware. My work shoes would NOT be fun to hike that far in.

 

[YammyMonkey]

I come from a mountaineering/rescue background as far as this topic is concerned so take that for what it is worth.

For the car(s) I would go with a simple JanSport or similar duffle bag. They're cheap from WalMart and relatively easy for one person to carry as opposed to one of those plastic tubs that would carry the same amount of gear. The one I'm talking about is big enough to carry two full sets of dive gear (no tanks) or two full sets of motocross gear, including helmets, Camelbaks and boots with a bit of room to spare. I think the easy(ier) to transport facet would be very helpful if you're in a rush to load or unload the vehicle going relatively short distances. Much over 100 yards and you'll be hurting but it's still doable. Not so with the Rubbermaid containers.

As for the on-foot and hauling butt pack I'm most comfortable with the lightweight mountaineering packs. I am a light is fast and fast is safe (kinda like slow is smooth and smooth is fast) kind of guy and can stuff one mean pack. That comes from years of experience though. A weekend in the hills will teach you a number of things about your gear choices that you just can't learn in the living room or on the interweb so get out there and test it out. If nothing else, load it up and go for a walk after dinner. A lot of mountaineering packs are made of lightweight materials, but also keep in mind that the good ones are designed to be used and abused by people whose lives depend on their pack and clothing gear working just as much, if not moreso, than your average soldier. One thing about the external or other wide-body packs is that they tend to get hung up on foliage much moreso than a narrower internal pack. In fact, I remember reading something to that effect in one of Gen. Chuck Yeager's books regarding a trip he took to NZ. They also tend to be lighter, but the externals can carry very heavy and/or awkwardly shaped loads better. That said, there are also some very good internal frame packs that you could load with 100lbs and still be "comfortable."

In general, if you're carrying a heavier load it will be easier on you if you carry it higher in the pack, but will have less of an effect on your balance if the heavies items are packed lower in the pack. For everything except scrambling/climbing pack your weight high.

Another advantage to the internal frame packs is that in many of them the back pad of the pack can be pulled out and used as a short narrow but functional sleeping pad. Likewise, you can climb into the pack (to a limited extent) to help keep your lower body warm. It's not comfortable but sometimes that little bit of extra coverage will be what keeps you alive or at least able to get a bit of sleep instead of spending the entire night shivering. This can help make up for a lack of shelter, but nothing beats a good tent.

Don't buy a pack from the interweb or anywhere else without first having the chance to wear the same thing loaded with a realistic weight around for at least 30 minutes. If you're walking around the local REI or whatever for half an hour with 50+++ pounds in your pack any hot spots or shortcomings in the pack design will show up. Change packs or pack components because when you hit the hills for days at a time those 30 min "minor annoyances" will make you miserable and could render you unable to carry your pack due to chafing or similar.

Most likely your first pack will not be perfect for you so get something that is comfortable and work out the details like external tie-down points and water bladder pockets later.

Also keep in mind your general fitness level which, unfortunately, I think a lot of gun guys and girls take for granted. If you're overweight or otherwise not fit your chances of carrying a heavy pack are about nil. Same goes for smaller children. In both cases they'd be much better served with a lighter Camelbak HAWG-type pack which would allow you to carry water and a few necessities but not much else. Frankly, there is no excuse for not being in at least decent shape, it does not take that much effort. You'd be amazed what a reasonable diet (not the weight watchers sense of the word) and a 30 minute walk after dinner will do for you. Obviously there are some exceptions for phisical disability not due to being overweight.

Preacher, you might try a golf bag cart, my dad started using one for his big fishing tackle bag and cooler combo. The wide wheels dont sink into sand, it's pretty compact for carrying in the car because the handle folds down and the wheels fold in. He managed to pick one up at a Good Will store for a whopping $2.50. Might be a decent option.

 

[Thin Black Line]

There are a lot of "Medium" packs that will work well. Some to
consider: the Army's ALICE pack (medium), Spec-Ops, Blackhawk,
etc. Do <not> use with a frame. The high-quality US made
commercial brands with Molle webbing are great for attaching
extra pouches. You can put a hydration pouch inside of it.
You can also lash more small bag on top of and/or under the
mainpack to carry extra items. However, these should either be
for consumable items or not be a complete handicap to you if
you had to ditch them.

You could also carry a satchel with a shoulder strap across to
one side of you. Consider this for extra essentials that could
duplicate what's in the main pack and could still greatly help
out if you had to cut loose from your entire backpack and leave
it behind.

You will simply not be able to carry every single item that people
are putting on their "Survival Toy Wish Lists." Too many people
would opt to carry an extra firearm in place of the satchel, or
far too much ammo. With the rig I mentioned you can still
carry a pistol, a long arm, and sufficient ammo.

The biggest thing to consider is how far you're going to have to
carry all this stuff on foot. People who are talking about carrying
humongous backpacks and duffles of nearly equal size in each
hand will not be going very far. Don't even get me started on
them still attemping to carry two pistols, a rifle, a shotgun and
1000 rds of ammo. They will end up feeding and arming the
looters.

The litmus test here is: How far can you comfortably walk with it,
and if necessary, how quickly can you ditch it and still have enough
on you to move even more quickly and survive?

 

[goosegunner]

If you are bugging out on foot, rule number one is don't bring too much and stay away from military gear. Most military equipment are ment to be repairable when you get resuplied, and even special forces not often plan for more than a week without resuplies, and military stuff is made to be used by young people in exellent shape. Military equip. is therefor often more solid (and heavy) than neccesary. And my experience is that the military usually overload the soldiers, greatly redusing speed and range. Even a average person with limited training and 25 kg on his back can outwalk a top trained elite forces guy with 50+ kg on his back +gun(s) +ammo, and 25 kg should be enought to get a 'normally fit' person 20 to 30 km a day for 8- 10 days without resuply in winter (that is with no more than 2 days of water (5 liter) in the pack at one time)

 

[Thin Black Line]

I agree, stay light, bring what you really need. A good military (either
issue or private purchase) US pack can survive a lot of abuse. I would
pick the pp pack over the issue. Not everyone has the $$$, though.
A used ALICE pack will go farther than a new chinese-made pack of
similar price. And, who needs the bright yellow/purple/reflective
flashy logo stripe on a bug-out??? Forget the packs from the trendy
sweater catalogs.

Either way, there's always room for a sewing kit for brust seams.

 

[YammyMonkey]

who needs the bright yellow/purple/reflective flashy logo stripe on a bug-out??? Forget the packs from the trendy sweater catalogs.

Very true. You will pay for your gear choice in the store or in the field. Either way (military-style or commercial pack) buy a quality pack that fits and that you can carry. If you happen to get a bright colored Dana Design pack it's nothing a little spray paint can't fix if need be.

 

[pete f]

Hockey bags with bigger day packs inside

Hockey bags are cheap under 20 bucks for basics. some for alittle more come with the little skate board wheels underthem like flight attendant bags. you need to buy a bag that has long enough handles straps to get your arm through and set it on your shoulder.

The ones we bought have side pockets that hold boots (instead of skates) the back pack i have in mine is an older Lowe climbing bag, not a full scale back pack but big enough to carry what i need it to. Living in minnesota. (the land of lakes) finding water is never a problem and with Katahdin water filters, any found water is potable. My lowe pack has a 3 liter unbottle from camelback. making it a suitable long walk pack. In my bag is also a no name hunting fanny pack. which I carry a lot when hunting or canoeing. the imortant stuff never leaves my side. the GPS. the water filter and some other stuff.
]
A true BOB has to be tailored to your environment. IN minnesota, I do not need to cary water as water will always be nearby. in tucson, I would need to provide water. In minnesota I keep a cheap snomobile suit in my bag because it may be -20 when i gotta move. There has to be some adjustment.

I would look at it from this point of view.
A) location. Environment. Do you have to bring water? What temps are you going to be dealing with? What distances are you going to have to deal with. Even walking, I can get myself to a safe place/ insitu cache in less than 10 days. EOTWAKI situation I need to make ten days. So i plan for 14 days. Not a big deal. ten pounds of rice, five pounds of instant oats. two pounds of sugar melted with two pounds of butter. oil. a few packs of tuna, chicken(go to the grocery store, be amazed what is now packed in pouches).A few packs of gatorade and the like, plus a few packs of dried soups and the like. Some salt pepper and a few other. We can eat for a couple of weeks. not a lot of variety but lots of calories and that is all you need for that time.

B) Depending on season. shelter. Am i simply leaving my house because of a spill or chemical leak? then i will shelter somewhere indoors, Major disruption, i have a good tent in the house and a forty dollar tent in the bugout bag. If i have notice I do a swap if not . i can live in the cheap one. here mosquitos are a definite danger from your major night time need, rest., so a good tent will help more than you can imagine. same with bug spray in the BOB
Sleeping bags. The bob has an old one i replaced because of a bad zipper a few years ago. It will work, just not a great one.

C) Clothes. Anything cotton is not coming with. Synthetics, wools they work. one pair long underwear, one set fleece pants and pullover and a fleece jacket too. Also one set rain/wind outer wear. combine the pieces and you get a outfit good enough till about zero. toss in a snowmobile suit nad i c an manage 20 below. My grab jacket is a plain tan bird shooters coat will not raise an eyebrow in a situation, but will hold the basics easy.
mine is Always stocked with 20 rounds of 12 ga. 10 buckshot on the right, 10 slugs on the left. Inside pocket holds 2 clips for the 45 govt which is in a sewn in pocket inside the left front. right inside holds a 4 inch gerber. is summer it may draw a little attention but it is dark enough tan to be good at night, and i do not expect much stuff in the day. one side holds a pair of gloves and a hat, the other holds a maxfire and a set of spare batteries.
I also just added a small bag with my meds 3 days worth and some $$

D) footwear. I have a pair of Rocky boots in my bag, broken in and worked in for a few months then put in the bag. also a pair of flip flops(shelter wear) and a pair of nike cross trainer/walking shoes.

E) cooking gear, each of us has a multi fuel stove, my son and I carry coleman stoves, my daughter and wife carry whisper lites by MSR's. Each of us also carry two fuel bottles. We carry kerosene, has a higher BTU per pound level, cooks faster too, we find.

F) odds and ends, knife, pocket knife. maps. stormproof lighter and matches. plastic bags. a folding chair. (each bag has a cheap collapsable chair. If you are in a shelter, vacant space etc. a place to sit is really nice to have. costing five bucks at target, no big deal to lose too if the situation warrants.) a hand crank radio. a small container with about ten Lith Ion batteries a multi tool or a couple pair of vise grips and a swapable screwdriver. some para cord. a few clothes pins. a few 'biners both the real ones and a few small gadget ones. a nalgene bottle of bleach. a small squirt bottle filled with dish wash soap, a little goes a long way and is good for washing out clothes in a sink, washing hands, eating utensils, showers. all in one. Squirt bottles of mouth wash, betadine, saline (contact lense) solution, plus some meds.

just some more ideas My wife had a diesel toureg but has traded it in on the mercedes diesel Jeep liberty. She just did not like the smell of the VW.
a year and ahalf old and you open the door on a hot day and it smelled like melted plastic gave her a headache. she loves the Liberty, at twentynine MPG she has gotten nearly 600 miles from a tankful. better even that epa regs say, this for a vehicle that hauls the family nicely

the diesel sprinter van would probably be my first choice to haul us out of here tho. big enough to take everything and still at 24 25 MPG and a 25 gallon tank that is about 525 miles pertank full, add a couple of five gallon jerry cans and all of a sudden i am able to make St louis, manitoba, montana or half way to the coast without resupply. plus with a porta potty in back you can live in it for a while if need be.

 

[Burt Blade]

Pack light. You travel better when lightly loaded.

Get a _good_ pack, with a waist/hip belt, preferrably padded. This puts the weight on your legs, not your back and sholders.

 

[goosegunner]

Get a _good_ pack, with a waist/hip belt, preferrably padded. This puts the weight on your legs, not your back and sholders

And get used to walk with it, load it with 10 - 15 kg of sandbags (not to much because it takes time to get used to a full load and it wears out your knees) and walk a mile or five a few times a week, and walk in your new boots as well.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Yes, walk in your NEW boots and get them soaked all the way through
up past your ankles and keep walking a couple more miles. Then turn
around and walk back through where you soaked them earlier and soak
them again. Ok. Now you're ready to walk some more and take a rest.
Perfect. Your boots are now broken in.

 

[pax]

I'm a little different.

I think your primary personal kit should be small enough to fit in your pocket -- like those listed on this site. If you put your own together, an Altoids tin is about the right size.

Your secondary personal kit is your backpack (an ALICE pack works just fine, and even better if it's got a detachable butt pack with 24 hours' worth of gear). It's got everything one person needs for three days, and it stays packed all the time so you can easily grab it and go for a weekend backpacking trip without even looking in the bag before you leave. Of course you go backpacking for a weekend at least a couple times a year, so the supplies stay fresh and you are always refining what's in there.

Then you've got whatever you keep in the car for ordinary car emergencies (blankets, flashlight, flares, gallon of water, basic first aid kit, spare tennis shoes). I keep a spare personal kit in my glovebox, too.

In your garage, you've got camping boxes with all of the nice-to-have gear (you do go camping regularly, right?) that you would want if you were going to be outdoors for a week or more. They are clean, contain everything you need, and are well-organized. If you need to bug out you plan to grab those and throw them in the trunk of the car when you leave.

Oh, and if I were bugging out from a major disaster? My plan is to drive a minimum of two states away before stopping. The further you get from the epicenter of a disaster, the more infrastructure is in place and the easier it will be to get replacement supplies.

pax

 

[svtruth]

Extendable Packs

I have an extendable pack, extra height can evert from inside. With an anorak on top, dry socks, it makes an acceptable bivouac bag.
Except it is not tactical black.