Some thoughts on the .40 S&W

[NG VI]

If I could find .40 with JSP or SWCHP I think the little round would be an excellent round for personal carry. As a target shooter it groups nicely at twenty yards out of the Glock 23 I own.

.40 JHP, especially in 165 or 180 grain, will definitely penetrate plenty deep enough while opening up and having more immediate effect than an FMJ bullet. If you want a lot of penetration, why not go with something like Hornady's XTP, that bullet typically penetrates deeper than any other functional JHP I know of. I said functional because if a bullet design doesn't open up then it might as well be FMJ, which in calibers like 9mm and .45 generally will penetrate about two feet or more in gel. I know gel isn't people but it is what we have to compare performance with, and it does a good job at it.

The .40 is'nt a compromise IMO, .45 and 9mm are.

I agree. .40 can put out a pretty hefty slug at a good clip while both 9mm and .45 have to give up one to get the other. In service pistol terms anyway.

 

[NG VI]

I have a tendency to think some of the .45 owners bashing of smaller calibers is due to the fact they are compensating for a shortage in some other area of their life.

Like muzzle velocity?

 

[MCgunner]

You can't compare a 185 JHP .45 to a 180 grain .40, sectional densities being a lot different. The 180 grain .40 will out-penetrate the 185 .45 all else being equal. So, pretty much, your whole post is sorta worthless. Just constructive criticism there.

There are those who say the 9mm is more powerful than .38 special because of its higher velocity, but commonly utilizing a lighter grain round, that is up for argument.

No, it's not the velocity. Out of a 2" barrel snub, my .38 +Ps kick up 270 ft lbs. My 9x19 +Ps out of my Kel Tec's 3" barrel (and it conceals in a pocket better than my snub) is pushing 410 ft lbs. That's closer to .357 magnum 2" power levels than .38 and has a lot less flash bang than .357 snubs.

Now, .38 is plenty for self defense and I'm carrying it today, in fact, but the 9 is quite superior ballistically, no arguing that! I'm plenty happy with .38 as a carry, though. The 158 grain +Ps penetrate, expand, open two holes, and have a good street track record.

The .40? Well, I don't own one, but it's a good round. I think it basically tries to satisfy the light/fast AND the big/slow crowds with a compromise. However, those camps don't tend to want to compromise. It is a good round in its own right, but just one choice in a variety of good self defense rounds. I'm not big on one particular caliber. I carry what works for me considering a variety of issues. I'd carry a .460 Smith and Wesson Magnum if I could carry one in a pocket all day, but hey, ya gotta compromise on things where carry guns are concerned. Besides, I'd worry a little about overpenetration in the .460.

 

[TPD211]

As a firearms instructor and police officer for 30+ years I have seen numerous of shootings with the above mentioned calibers. My Dept carry's 40 caliber Glocks.
I have seen alot of 9mm shootings in the past where the person shot is able to walk into the ER. Probably FMJ ammo or RN ammo I bet. Not a man stopper in my opinion. 9mm is very good for shot placement and ease of shooting IMO.

The 40 & 45 calibers come close or surpass the requirements to be man stoppers, either 200 + grain bullet, over 1000 FPS, or both.

Everyone knows the history of the .45 caliber bullet and its stopping power.

I'm guessing we imported the 9mm into the USA during or after WWI or WWII. I do not know the history of the 9mm in America.

If I remember correctly the 40 S&W came from the 10mm that was issued to FBI Agents in the 1980's. The 10mm is a monster to carry all day and to shoot, especially if you have small hands or are small framed. The 40 S&W was developed after complaints of the 10mm by the FBI.

I've carried a .380 as my off duty piece, not considered a man stopper by any means.

I forgot the point of the thread...... I guess I'm trying to say to carry what you have at hand, the bigger caliber the better. Heck, even a .22 has killed many a person or wild critter.

 

[MCgunner]

The 9x19 has been around since 1902. Autoloader cartridges in general haven't been popular in THIS country except in the last 30 years or so. The high cap 9 is what made 'em popular with the masses, called the "wondernines" in the press. Hollow points make most self defense rounds, not just the 9, effective and as to the definition of a "man stopper"......I've seen a fellow walk into the emergency room of Brazosport Memorial Hospital holding his guts in from being shot with a 12 gauge point blank. He survived just fine with a bit of patching up and recovery. The vaunted "man stopping" of the .45 is mostly myth, too, and comparative at best. I mean, yeah, compared to a .38 long colt, it's better. But, I don't hunt deer or hogs with it. I have killed deer and hog with the .357 magnum using handloads near 800 ft lbs at the muzzle. The .45ACP simply isn't enough gun for game past maybe 25 or 30 yards max. In it's hottest renditions, it will take game to that range limit, but not a ball round for sure. .45 ball makes around 360 ft lbs and doesn't do much tissue damage, not comparable with an 800 ft lb 165 grain Keith style lead SWC from a .357.

On human flesh for self defense uses, yes, I do want a hollowpoint bullet. The idea is to use an adequate caliber to STOP the threat and make quality hits with it until the fight stops. The 9, the .40, the .45, the .38, even the .380 is capable of that. I kinda stop with the .380 and kinda prefer at least the .38. There's really no need to go smaller than .380 considering that the LCP and P3AT type .380s are as small as the .25 I used to carry.

 

[ccsniper]

I have a .40 and love it. In fact got rid of my nines to buy more .40 cal handguns. I have read somewhere that a mortition wrote a study about 9mm, .40, and .45. He said that almost all 9mm wounds required at least 2 or 3 to completely kill the recipeint. All .40 and .45 wounds were usually one shot kills, Even if more than one round was fired into the person usually the first would have been sufficient. then again, you have stories about a guy taking 22 shots from a .40 and 17 of them hitting COM yet the guy continued to try and kill the cop who was shooting him.

 

[DougDubya]

I have a .40 and love it. In fact got rid of my nines to buy more .40 cal handguns. I have read somewhere that a mortition wrote a study about 9mm, .40, and .45. He said that almost all 9mm wounds required at least 2 or 3 to completely kill the recipeint. All .40 and .45 wounds were usually one shot kills, Even if more than one round was fired into the person usually the first would have been sufficient. then again, you have stories about a guy taking 22 shots from a .40 and 17 of them hitting COM yet the guy continued to try and kill the cop who was shooting him.

That "mortician" may have just been Gunkid under a brand new guise other than mall ninja. At least according to the disparity between the vast number of corpses he'd allegedly personally rummaged around in, and the general amount of time a proper autopsy takes.

Also, just because a corpse has more bullets in it doesn't mean that a coroner could tell what the body was doing when the bullet entered, or what firearm they were shot with, or whether the person who shot said corpse was firing quickly or at a slow, measured pace to tell whether their first round was effective.

 

[BlindJustice]

I saved this after extracting the information and
putting up this comparison where
you compare Light - Medium & heaviy
common weights for the caliber and
the respective cartridge for performeance

Not basing anything.

Double Tap Ammo offeringss
These are ALL Speer Gold Dot JHP
CUrrent offerings
$32.95/50 $29.95/50 $33.95/50
.45 ACP ----- .40 S&W -- 10MM Auto
185 gr 155 gr. 155 gr.
1225 fps 1,275 fps 1,475 fps
616 ft lbs 60 ft. lbs 750 ft lbs
200 gr. 165 gr. 165 gr.
1125 fps 1,200 fps 1,400 fps
562 Ft lbs 528 fl lbs 718 ft lbs
230 gr. 180 gr. 180 gr.
1,010 fps 1,100 fps 1,300 fps
521 ft lbs 484 ft lbs 676 ft lbs


With a well placed shot, think the BG is going
to know the difference?

I have a full size 1911 in .45 ACP and a CZ 75B in 9mm Parabaellum.
I've also shot the S&W M&P in .40 S&W - seems like a nice
platform just the lighter weight of the polymer frame made it 'snappy'
I thinkk They're all in the same ballpark to a degree in recoil imho.

As far as magazine capacity goes, guess it would be good in a
firefight, don't read much about that sort of thing from law abiding
citizens with CCW, though. .


Randall

 

[M&PVolk]

Not being in a "firefight" hardly seems like a justification for reduced magazine capacities. The one thing people never seem to address with mag capacity is the possibility of multiple assailants. The fact is that most criminals are actually quite cowardly, and as such, they tend to travel in groups. Let's say you are attacked by a small group of three to five people...magazine capacity suddenly becomes a very relevant matter. Even if you have the capacity, your odds are not good in this situation, so training is also of great value.

Myself, I like to have as many rounds available to me as possible in any given circumstance. Unfortunately, there are always compromises when carrying. Sometimes the max I can have is 5 shots in a J-Frame, other times it is 10+1 in my .40 with an extra mag.

This is why the .40 is so valuable to me. Greater capacity than the .45 with almost nearly identical stopping ability. All this in a frame size similar to the 9mm, allowing me to comfortably carry and reliably conceal all that power. I respect the other cartridges mentioned, but I believe the .40 is the best CCW choice of all.

 

[MCgunner]

Let's say you are attacked by a small group of three to five people.

Five attackers, five rounds in my .38. Where's the problem?

Anyway, once a couple of their buddies go belly up, I don't think they'll have the will to be next.

Normally, I carry a 10+1 Kel Tec if I'm going to be in big cities, though. My revolver is all I feel I need around this little town. The only murders I've heard about were in bars or caused by women. I don't know if there's ever been a murder for money around here, not to say it couldn't happen, but MS13 ain't real big here, put it that way, and me and my ol' lady are old, no one else seems to want us, so no problem there. Of course, if it takes a .40 to kill a man, I guess I'm screwed. But, I've heard of a few folks being put down with the lowly .25 Auto, so I don't really rely on internet wisdom for my caliber choice.

 

[Dr_2_B]

I used to go with the 40 most of the time (if not 45), though I've relaxed a little and I'll carry 9's as well now.

 

[Wheeler44]

Interesting..... All this talk about a round that almost equals the .38-40 from about 105 years ago........ I can just hear my grampa and his dad...."Yeah, the .38-40 is a good round...not as big as a .45 or a 44-40 but more stoppin' power than a .36 cap and ball...

They were both law officers and carried the above....From what I hear they both preferred shotguns whenever possible....

 

[MagnumDweeb]

Eh, I was just giving the .40 its due. I like the Glock 23 mostly because ammo is quasi-plentiful and stomachbly(I know not a real word) cheap. I get a heavy grain than a 9mm, and a good amount of power behind it. Admittedly had I not gotten the Glock 23, or this ammo crisis/shortage been on, I think I would have been plenty comfortable to have never have shot the caliber. But I have, and I've ordered the Lone Wolf Conversion Barrels in 9mm and Sig. 357(have few hundred rounds in the back of the safe, hey I'm a packrat, a packrat with a ton of ammo). Pickup a couple 9mm mags locally and then I just need one of the .22lr conversion kits and I'm happy as a pig in the slop.

I think once you get above 9mm/.38 pushing a 110grain or heavier JHP in excess of 900ft/s, you've got a lethal round that once well placed will drop most BGs. But there was the Miami 1986 shootout so who knows. I've got thirteen rounds of Hydrashock riding in my little Glock, one in the chamber, in the hands of myself who can put all thirteen rounds inside a playing card at five yards in rapid succession, caliber size becomes a moot point when a jagged hole the size of a playing card gets opened up where your sternum used to be.

 

[BlindJustice]

I respect other people's choices and have nothing
against the .40 S&W. I just don't happen to have one yet.

Carry is a full size 1911 5" bbl. .45 ACP
Milt Sparks #Axiom holster and MS gun Belt,
with an IWB single mag carrier. with Wilson ETM 8 rd mags
Double Tap +P speer Gold Dot JHPs 200 gr. 1125 fps

Need a holster for my CZ 75B 9mm I like the
Double Tap Speer Gold Dot +P 147 gr. @ 1135 fps
buy the cheap Fed. 147 gr FP-FMJ for range/practice.

I've looked at various platforms for a .40 S&W
and I like the S&W M&P w/thumb safety option
nice grip and I like the trigger better than Glocks
I've shot Full size is 15 and the compact is 10 rds
mag cap. if Magnumdweeb can get cheap ammo
more apower to him.

Heck I'd like a S&W 610 10mm AUto/.40 S&W
I shoot a 625 in .45 ACP and have no problem with
the full moon clips. .45 Auto RIm 250 gr. SWC @ 900
FPS are good as well.

5 shot J Frame - MOdel 60 3" Bbl. .357 mag
but use 125 gr. Speer GD JHP .38 SPecial +P for a
more controlled recovery than those heavy magnum
loads sheeish.

have I rambled on enough? Thought SO....

Randall

 

[WingRider]

My Sigline

I think you know how I feel But I am interested in a little 9mm

 

[BlindJustice]

Forgot to mention I do have a .40 caliber

Bar Sto barrel for the 1911 in .400 CorBon
155 gr. Hornady XTP JHP @ 1350 FPS

 

[pegan]

I think the .40 is my favorite of all calibers commonly available. I have a SAXD SC in .40, a Beretta 90-two in .40, and just yesterday purchased a Cx4 in .40 with all the panic buying, the .40 has been the most commonly avail. round and is actually returning to the shelves more rapidly and more regularly than most other common calibers. I love my .40s and will probably (or not) thin out my collection and gradually move toward consolidating into the .40. It just seems a lot easier and more practical to stock a lot of one caliber ammo than trying to keep a good supply of all the various rounds my collection is chambered for.

 

[Mike J]

MagnumDweeb-I don't own one (been carrying an XD-40 service) but I really like the size of the G-23. I shot my neighbors once & it was easy to shoot. I'm not a Glock guy don't own one but I like that gun.

 

[redactor]

40 S&W is about the biggest round you can get into a 9mm sized frame. It's all about the most power in the smallest package. It seems to be an effective and popular compromise.

While it is not very popular, I believe the .45 GAP has a shorter COL than either the 9mm Luger or the 40 S&W. I don't own a 40 or a 45 GAP, but I don't have anything against either of them... Now 357 Sig, that's something we could have done without. Especially people shooting them from short-barreled Glocks at an indoor range...

 

[makarovnik]

At first I didn't want a .40. I had 9mm's and .45's so I didn't think I needed it. Now that I have one I really like it. Enough that I went out and bought a carbine in .40 also.

Good penetration and mine's fairly accurate. It looks like it might out perform the .45 acp when both are using the same FMJ.

 

[V45C]

there was a pistol i'd wanted for some time (non-H&K) and i was finally able to obtain one (won't mention the brand) , all other products from the company had worked without fail for the last ??? years , except for this accursed 40 S&W...
(apparently the factory knows about the problems but continues to ship the guns anyway)
i called the distributor because they warranty all products that they sell for life and explained the situation ...
apparently there is no 100% fix , it either works from NIB or it doesn't...
they said to return it for a 100% credit towards anything else they have , sooooooooo , i ordered a USP compact 40 V1...
since it fits the same mags and holsters as my P2K 40 LEM i figure i'm ahead of the game ...
it should be here monday...
i should have just bought the USP to begin with , oh well...

i guess i must be happy with the 40 soft and wimpy or i wouldn't keep buying them...

 

[Hokkmike]

After many years and several pistols I have settled on the .40. If I had to shoot one of the others, even the .380, I could live with it.

 

[saturno_v]

Just to clarify...the .40 S&W IS NOT a compromise compared to a .45 ACP in terms of power or stopping ability....I really do not understand what the supposed "compromise" would be.......

 

[.45&TKD]

I tend to view the 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 acp, the same way that I view 4, 6, and 8 cylinder vehicles.

A 4 cylinder will get you where you're going, and will cost less to run, but if you are driving like your life depends on it, you want an 8 cylinder.

 

[pegan]

but if you are driving like your life depends on it, you want an 8 cylinder.

Indy cars run 4 cylinders. I'm perfectly happy with my 6s, one is a 4.6 liter(gm), and the one in my truck is 15 liters at 550 HP (caterpillar). I feel safe saying that my 6 cyl. has more torque than half a dozen of your 8 cylinders combined(1850 foot lbs at 1200 rpm). The same can be applied to the 9mm, .40, and .45 depending on bullet weight, load and most importantly, shot placement. Keep in mind, I do own a .45 too, just no 9mm, I hate them.