Sorry, but "Energy" didn't kill that deer.

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USSR

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Rather than hijack another thread, I thought I would start another one concerning the misuse and misunderstanding of energy as it applies to hunting. I cannot count how many times I have seen guys say something to the effect of "the bullet stopped inside the deer, so all the energy was used". Well, if the bullet stopped inside the deer, then you had a failure for one reason or another. The energy in ft. lbs. that is often found on ammo boxes is nothing more than a mathematical calculation based on bullet weight and speed. It does not take into consideration bullet diameter or bullet construction, two very important aspects in the lethality of a particular cartridge. For example: take a .357 Magnum firing a 158gr bullet at 1300fps and you get an energy calculation of 593 ft.lbs. Now, take a .45 Colt firing a 255gr bullet at 1000fps and you get an energy calculation of 566 ft.lbs. Very similar, yet having shot deer with both the .357 Magnum and the .45 Colt, the .45 Colt is a much more effective deer round and kills all out of proportion to it's energy calculation number. Also, the energy calculation does not take into consideration bullet construction and performance. Shooting a full metal jacketed bullet and either a softpoint or hollowpoint of the same weight at the same velocity results in the same energy calculation number. And, shooting a hollowpoint bullet can be both good and bad; good if it expands and fully penetrates the animal, and bad if it fails to fully penetrate. Lastly, I will simply say, this mathematical calculation called energy never killed anything. What kills is tissue destruction causing rapid blood loss resulting in a rapid drop in blood pressure, unless you've made a CNS shot. The bigger the hole you put in an animal the more tissue destruction there is. And having both an entry and exit hole promotes a more rapid loss of blood and blood pressure. Lower the blood pressure and it's "lights out".

Don
 
What kills is tissue destruction causing rapid blood loss resulting in a rapid drop in blood pressure

And what caused this tissue destruction?

The energy of the bullet, of course.

It's not the only important thing, but it's not meaningless, either.
 
energy matters

I get what you're saying Don - tissue damage and circulatory/nervous system damage is what brings that gopher, elk or elephant down for the count.

However, energy (a resultant of bullet mass times velocity squared or something to that effect) represents the potential destructive work that a bullet can do.

The bigger an animal, the more tissue, and so the more destructive 'work' the bullet must do to disrupt the circulatory and/or nervous systems.

Just look at the energy figures for a 22LR (gopher), 30-06 (elk) and 458wm (elephant). In the real world where energy matters, none of those rounds can be said to be interchangeable.
 
Well, if the bullet stopped inside the deer, then you had a failure for one reason or another.

I agree with all but this one sentence. To paraphrase what you said, broken body parts is what kills stuff, not energy. But there are lots of ways to break down body parts. A complete pass through with good expansion is one way, as long as it hits vitals along the way. But many animals that drop the fastest are those where the bullet stays inside.

There are 2 ways to go about destroying body parts.

Some bullets rapidly expand and cause massive tissue damage, but may, or may not completely penetrate. Hornady SST's come to mind. Nothing at all wrong with that approach as long as you know your bullet and use it correctly. This is the bullet you put into a deer's lungs only. They are not elk bullets and not for shooting running deer in the butt.

Other bullets such as the all copper Barnes or other bonded bullets penetrate much more, but often with much less expansion. Hit the vitals, and the animal will die. It just may take a few seconds longer. But they are a better choice for shots at bad angles or for larger game.

And there is nothing wrong with using energy numbers to compare different loads. It is not perfect, but when comparing similar cartridges it is one method to predict how much damage a bullet will do. A lot of folks don't really understand how complex the issue really is and tend to oversimplify. Energy numbers alone are a poor indicator of performance. But along with other information, can be useful.
 
Well, if the bullet stopped inside the deer, then you had a failure for one reason or another.
Depends on the bullet and what it hits before you can assume it is a failure.

Lastly, I will simply say, this mathematical calculation called energy never killed anything.
Energy is not the calculation, it is a physical action and ft. lbs is the measurement of the combination of the three {energy, mass, and velocity). Without energy the bullet could not kill the deer. So it's a combination of factors. Take energy out and the bullet stays in the casing.
 
Hydra static shock will do massive damage to tissue and vitals. I've seen flesh liquefied by a high velocity pass through. Liquids don't compress, so when a projectile enters into flesh, the liquid contained in that flesh has to go some where, it destroys and ruptures the cells that contain the liquid, which is also a major contributing factor in mushroom effect of the projectile. The liquid actually does most of the damage as it is pushed out of the way. So when I get a through and through lung shot or any other body pass through, the exit wound is always much larger than the projectile, much larger, because of hydra static shock. This last deer season a .243 win. left a baseball sized exit wound.

Place a piece of dry deer hide on a target board, then place a piece of paper 6" or so behind it, then shoot it with say a .243" projectile. You'll discover that the paper target behind the hide will be only slightly larger than the entry hole on the hide. Now take that same hide, but fresh and full of moisture, same circumstances as above, but the hole in the paper will be significantly larger, this is due to the presence of liquid creating a greater degree of hydra static shock. Another way to observe this is to shoot an empty plastic soda bottle. Then fill that bottle with cotton balls and water, the bottle will explode, even if you use a FMJ bullet.

So to classify energy as the primary factor is rather vague and misguided IMO. Energy comes in various forms, one of which is hydra static shock, not just ft. lbs. of raw energy.

GS
 
I wholeheartedly disagree when referencing handgun rounds and slower rifle rounds. Faster rifle rounds I would agree with the hydrostatic shock as it's been shown to cause organs to shut down. On handgun rounds (or slow rifle rounds) I take a much different approach and my results in the field back up my thoughts. Assume you are looking at a .357 mag bullet. A 180 gr bullet will likely poke right through from one side and out the other. It will expand a little on the way through to say .50 (from experience digging a bullet out of a cedar tree. A 125 gr jhp will likely turn to schrapnel inside and do a lot of damage but may or may not penetrate enough for that damage to count like it should. Get back to your standard 158 gr jhp and likely you will find a bullet still inside of a whitetail just under the skin opposite the entry wound. That bullet will be mushroomed out considerably more than the big heavy bullet but will hold together better than the light one. Your probably in the .7 range on mushroom width. So by using pi X the radius of the bullet squared you find area of a circle or the size of a hole that got rammed through that deers heart. Light and fast at schrapnel chunk sizes...who knows. Assuming base of bullet holds together you get basically a hole area of 0.1 in^2. With that midrange bullet you get basically .4 inches squared. With that big honker your in the .2 in^2 range. Now take your pick. The right answer on expansion is obvious. Now with bullets you have trade offs. You do need penetration so you need to get through the chest cavity for sure. Unless there are vitals outside of this deer on the back side we don't need to do much more that hit opposite side ribcage. Bullets built for extreme penetration-pass through- don't dump energy by deforming as much. Bullets that are meat grenades don't meet this requirement. So again we weigh our options. Do we penetrate through the chest, through the opposite side, or have a meat grenade. Unless your buck has an external pacemaker were looking at simply hitting opposite side of chest cavity.

So in this excercize of thought we now are looking at a big mushroomed bullet that get through but not necessarily out of the deer. The expected counterpoint is is a blood trail. Go back to those numbers on bullet path holes. That big-old .4in^2 leak in the heart will lose blood twice as fast as the .2 in^2 hole. It will all come out on one side as well. This leads to more loss to the impact side rather than spreading loss out over two sides. The blood trail will be the same amount of blood one hole or two so it seems more sensible to run it out one hole where it is going out in a thicker pattern which SHOULD be more noticeable with larger drops. This is debatable because some say that the two sided approach gives 2 sides from which to pick up a droplet. Fact of the matter is that if old buck loses a pint, it's still a pint. If it's more visible clumped up or spread out depends on other factors.

So all points considered it seems like we are looking for maximum expansion and getting through the chest cavity. The actual exit hole seems a moot point as it is arguable. Max expansion is a factor of bullet design and those bullets tend to be softer than the deep penetrating variety but harder than the fragmenting kind so to get max expansion in this trade off you lose a little penetration. The penetration lost is only that of actually exiting the deer so that energy that remains in kinetic form of a moving bullets could have been used more effectively by expanding the bullet a bit more.
 
Around here, cars kill more deer than bullets, so that would mean the big, slow projectile wins!

Just a thought.........

Seriously, I've shot elk with both .30-06 and .45-70, plus a Northern Alberta Moose with a .45-70. The .30-06 always results in a lot of lost meat due to hydrostatic shock, whereas the .45-70 results in very little meat loss, and usually drops the animal quicker. Of course my .45-70 loads are 405 gr. JSP bullets at 1,800+ fps, and my .30-06 loads are 165 gr. SP bullets at 2,700+ fps.

I stopped hunting deer many years ago, but still hunt elk whenever I get drawn for a tag. I prefer to shoot them with the .45-70 within about 200 yards, but for longer shots, I prefer the .30-06, just because it's flatter shooting. Both kill them, but the meat loss is completely different between the two calibers.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
And what caused this tissue destruction?

The energy of the bullet, of course.

Energy in and of itself does not cause tissue damage.
For instance like Don mentioned, a fmj and a ballistic tip technically have the same amount of energy, but the ballistic tip expands violently spraying the chest cavity with the fragments of the bullet (assuming velocity was high enough to create this violent expansion, which it always has for me).

Massive tissue damage is caused by a rapidly expanding bullet. The fmj has the same energy but would not cause nearly the tissue damage, unless heavy bone was hit.
 
West K, you did a great job of breaking down the various types of energy dispersion, and the type of damage it produced. I don't disagree with your scientific analogy what so ever, but I will say that even with a 1300-1400 fps projectile, hydra static shock is still a very evident result. The amount of such of course is always more pronounced the high the velocity of the projectile, but it is still a major factor of those animals I've seen first hand. I've killed deer, and seen deer killed with everything from a handgun round, high powered rifle, and even an arrow, and hydra static always plays some significant part in the damage path. When skinning a deer or any other animal, regardless of the projectile, there has always been a pretty significant amount of evidence of hydra static shock damage to the surrounding tissues, in where often I find excessive bleeding.

With that said, and contradictory to my above statement, I once shot an antelope with a .270 win, 130 gr. Hot Core @ 3100 fps 600 yd. shot. The bullet entered and exited through the chest cavity, yet the antelope continued to run another 400+ yards before I landed one in his neck, flipping him over and down for the count. Now the interesting part, when I gutted him, I found that the first bullet had completely blown his heart apart ( hydra static shock), as well punched both lungs. He ran dead, no heart to push oxygenated blood any where? Experienced the same thing several years later on a mule deer. I can't explain it?

GS
 
And without sufficient energy, there is no hydrostatic shock, there is no expansion, there is no tissue damage. The energy of the bullet is what causes the damage, the bullet design determines how that energy is used.
 
You don't need holes through something, that is alive, to kill it and a hole punched all the way through an animal won't always kill it either.
 
Geez...this never ends...

Energy does NOT kill! Case in point:

A .30 caliber, 150 gr. bullet striking an animal @ 2700 fps possesses, generates, etc. 2427 ft. lbs. of energy.

Another identically constructed .30 caliber, (hypothetically)15,000 gr. bullet striking an animal @ 270 fps likewise possesses, generates, etc. 2427 ft. lbs. of energy, same as the bullet in the above example.

Get it? Identical amounts of energy from two .30 caliber bullets. Will they perform the same? Of course not. Our hypothetical 15,000 gr. bullet is travelling at a speed significantly less than an arrow fired from a compound bow. At that speed it won't even expand.


Another example:

A typical .44 Magnum load: 250 gr. SWC @ 1150 fps; Energy = 734 fp
A typical .22 Hornet load: 46 gr. SP @ 2700 fps; energy - 744 fp

Now, does anyone REALLY believe these two projectiles will kill exactly the same? Absurd.

Energy does NOT initiate bullet exapansion. Energy does NOT create hydrostatic shock. Math. Math. Math. That's all energy is. Period.

Step AWAY from the keyboard and go hunting.

35W
 
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Of course they won't perform the same, the energy gets applied completely differently. No comparison. Energy is only one part of the equation, but it is a very critical part.

Math. Math. Math. That's all energy is. Period.

Are you sticking your fingers in your ears when you say that?
 
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How in the world did out grandparents ever put meat on the table? Many were shooting 30-30 leverguns with fairly light lead bullets at low velocities and some were even shooting 25-35 leverguns with very light lead bullets. Often, they must have been very hungry! :rolleyes:
 
What kills is tissue destruction causing rapid blood loss resulting in a rapid drop in blood pressure, unless you've made a CNS shot. The bigger the hole you put in an animal the more tissue destruction there is. And having both an entry and exit hole promotes a more rapid loss of blood and blood pressure. Lower the blood pressure and it's "lights out".


I think the sooner we can get everyone to understand this, the better off we'll be.

This applies to everything except paper you'd put rounds on. I wish all of the folks comparing HD/SD ammo would understand this....

Well put again, Don !
 
Regarding hydrostatic shock, the British Army did extensive research on this many years ago and came to the conclusion that it didn't manifest itself until velocities of 2400fps or greater were attained. That leaves out handgun loads.

Don
 
Loading for Revlovers....Hunting Loads

Well I'm pouring my own cast bullets for several different calibers of revolvers. My loads are worked up to match the charistics of the alloy. As with most things cast bullets for hunting or even target shooting are a balancing act where you have to keep the pressure in balance with the alloy to gain optimal performance.

For hunting loads using cast bullets you need to have a realative velocity of around 900 - 1350fps at impact depending on the diameter of the bullets. With revolver loads most who shoot cast look towards a wide flat nosed,(WFN) type bullet as you not relying on expansion to do the work and the wider frontal area will displace as much or more tissue, depending on the velocity, than when using a hp. This said with cast bullets you can also get expansion from the WFN which will also aid in even more displacement.

OF course you can also use a cast HP as well and get even more of a good thing depending on how you approach things. With the same velocities, and impact ranges, using a 280gr WFN, I get plenty of expansion with both of them as can be seen below.
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These examples were all shot into the same media at roughly the same velocities, as all loads are using the same charge weights and components other than the actual bullets. The bullets only vary in weight by about 10-15 grs one way or the other averaging around 275grs.

The differences your going to see with jacketed is that you have to load them to higher velocities, for the same weight if using cast bullets, if your wanting to get them to expand properly. I will not argue one way or the other about how much things have changed in even the past 10yrs with regard to jacketed bullet performance, but handgun bullets don't seem to have come as far along as rifle bullets have. While there are certainly some good ones, and some really great ones out there, what might work great for a BG in the dark at 5-7yds isn't necessarily as good on a critter at 20-40yds. It stil will take higher velocity to initiate expansion. That is what is reported to be so good about the WFN designs, they are already starting out at almost full caliber on the meplat, and the wider surface area will disrupt most tissue as it passes through. They are however not the end all savior of handgun hunting bullets as even they need a specific velocity impact speed to perform this function.

I have been hunting with handguns for close to 30yrs, used all manners of "THE" greatest thing since sliced bread. Loaded them from mundane to blistering velocities, and not until I started thinking ion a whole new direction did I realize how much different handgun bullets vary and perform from rifle bullets, and how much differently cast vairied from jacketed.

While there are months worth of reading material in printed pages as well as in cyber space, it still all boils down to putting the most accurate load where it needs to be, and then having the proper balance of velocity to initiate expansion, (if so desired), or to disrupt the material in front of the meplat. Most of what has been added here is along the lines of rifle loads where velcity does indeed play a vital role, but even running a 125gr 357 bullet at 1800fps, your still not even in the ball park of the destruction deliverd by a cup and core lead tipped rifle bullet hitting even a mundane 2300 - 2500fps. You cannot compare rifle loads to handgun loads in the same arguement, as it isn't apples to apples. While you can compare a RN revolver load to a WFN even there things get a bit twisted in that the RN can in most cases tumble upon entry, where in most cases the WFN will simply bore a straight hole until ir either hits something substantial enough to stop it or it exits.

None of these examples however will ever put an end to the debate of which is better one hole or two. In the one hole theory one would have to have the velocity perfect each and every shot in order to stop the bullet each and every time from exiting. This simply isn't going to happen unless the animal is in the exact same position, same range, and of the exact same build, time and time again. The absolute best one could hope for is that the bullet does all it can do in a 14-18" spread, and if or when it does exit, it simply falls out on the ground on the offside of the critter. If it doesn't then it hasn't performed to it's full potential, as vied by plenty. Whereas if it does expand to full diameter and blows out the backside leaving a double or more sized hole, it can easily be said it delivered all that could be expected of it.

This is a picture of a 300gr WFN bullet, shown in the middle, which left the muzzle at 1550fps. It was recovered after plowing through over 24" (2-5gal buckets pictured below), of water filled buckets and nearly penetrating the third.
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This is the same bullet shown in the middle captured at the moment of impact with the bucket. It is pretty obvious there is plenty of energy, knockdown, or whatever you want to call it being delivered to what ever is on the receiving end of one.
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I can also say that with several hogs, and one deer, this was about the same result when the hammer was dropped. This bullet literally will roll them over from flipping them forwards ro sideways. At impact there is absolutely no doubt that something drastic just happened.
 

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I see a lot of arguing about the energy of rounds in Ft#s and muzzle velocity Such as:
"Another example:
A typical .44 Magnum load: 250 gr. SWC @ 1150 fps; Energy = 734 fp
A typical .22 Hornet load: 46 gr. SP @ 2700 fps; energy - 744 fp
Now, does anyone REALLY believe these two projectiles will kill exactly the same? Absurd."

The answer is quite simple, it's not the energy that the round has while flying, it's how and where it dumps that energy that matters.
This comment is a thread win IMO:
"And without sufficient energy, there is no hydrostatic shock, there is no expansion, there is no tissue damage. The energy of the bullet is what causes the damage, the bullet design determines how that energy is used."

And this one: "....Now, does anyone REALLY believe these two projectiles will kill exactly the same? Absurd." is just ignorant IMHO.

A shot with a .22 short that destroys enough of the CNS, or pokes a hole in a heart, will kill something just as dead as a .50bmg to the exact same spots. A living being can only get so dead, and a 44mag won't make it any "deader" than a .22 hornet.

None of this is intended to bash anyone, just stating what I see, YMMV
 
I appreciate the dialog and information as this has always been something I observed but could never understand. I don't "hunt" 'cause I don't need the meat. I support hunters and shooting sports, I just don't hunt personally as i get no thrill out of it...shooting for performance I love and do get.

That said, I had a massive problem in my yard with starlings at the bird feeder. Huge numbers of them would descend on the feeder and ravage it, eat what they could and then kick the remaining seed onto the ground where they'd poop on it. Great. So, I decided to thin the herd with an air rifle - .20 caliber Sheridan fired from my attic window from maybe 50'. I could literally hit a plastic pushpin 10 ot of ten times.

I shot a lot of birds and had two different bullets. One was an hourglass shaped light bullet and the other a brute, flat nosed cylinder that was twice as heavy. I tried maximum power/velocity and light bullets and 3 pumps (just enough to get it out of the barrel) with heavy bullets and every combination in between. And I observed the manner in which the birds died and how quickly they were stopped. All shots were to the same place - center mass of the breast.

With fast bullets the birds always flew away...they'd often fall right out of the air or land in a tress and keel over maybe 5 seconds later but the kills were never instantaneous. They were stopped but not "lights out" done deal right now. With the heavy lead cylinder bullets and *just* enough velocity to get them delivered to the target the effect was impressive. Same caliber but a simple lead cylinder moving at a slow speed *devastated* the bird in ways that the same bullet moving at 10 pumps (really fast and flat shooting - I'm guessing near 1000 fps!) would not do.

Heavy, slow moving lead always got feathers to fly and they would go "lights out" and literally be knocked off the perch. The best kill was always and by quite a large margin the heavy slow moving cylinders. Why? Obviously the same bullet pumped up to max velocity had much more energy yet if consistently failed to kill as cleanly and quickly as the same bullet moving slower.

I have always wondered why. I think energy and FPE is critical but only one part of an equation when it comes to killing/stopping a living critter. Starlings ain't Buffalo's but I'm betting the same results would be had on a different scale. I do not know why but it is true...simple FPE is not the most significant need for a round that needs to stop ASAP. This I know from my ballistic testing and such. There is more to it than just more velocity and more FPE.

VooDoo
 
How in the world did out grandparents ever put meat on the table? Many were shooting 30-30 leverguns with fairly light lead bullets at low velocities and some were even shooting 25-35 leverguns with very light lead bullets. Often, they must have been very hungry!

They were superb hunters, as opposed to animal shooters.

The old time muzzleloader hunters often killed deer and black bear using patched round balls of .45 caliber and smaller. They understood the anatomy of their quarry and knew where to shoot game animals. Just as important, they knew how to track wounded animals.

Shot placement is everything. Since 1999 most of my hunting has been with muzzleloaders. i've killed about 50 deer and a hundred or two wild hogs using muzzleloaders. No deer has gotten away wounded. Last deer season i bang flopped two deer using .50 and .54 muzzleloaders and patched round ball.

A big boar hog may run 150 yards after having both lungs destroyed by a bullet. Yep, sometimes they bang flop, who knows why.
 
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