Southpaw looking for a battle rifle

[JoeyMidwest]

First off, this is my first post, although I have been lurking THR for a couple years.

I've been looking into battle rifles for a while, and have decided that it will be my first big purchase once I finish my non-paying internship and finally graduate from college. I thought that I was pretty set on getting a H&K 91 clone, like the PTR 91F. I liked the fact that they are supposedly ultra reliable, and a gun that would not have much of a problem with parts breaking on it. Boston T. Party picked it as his "Mad Max/apocalypse" gun, in the event where spare parts or gunsmithing might not be readily available. I also like the idea of the roller delayed blowback system, it seems the most robust to me. BUT, I am left handed, and the ergonomics seem atrocious. I would also like something with a little longer barrel. I've only seen the PTR 91's with 18" or shorter barrel.

So, now I'm starting to question myself; Is the PTR really what I want? I hear good things about the FAL, and I like the idea of a longer barrel, but the gas system for some reason leaves me with reservations, and although I've never handled or fired either rifle, the ergonomics don't seem like that much of an improvement, at least for a lefty.

The M1a seems like the logical choice, especially in regards to lefty ergonomics, but it just seems like there is a much higher chance of dirt and crud getting into the action and causing problems. I feel like the M1a is obviously a nicer rifle, but I don't know if I would feel confident throwing it into a mudpit, or dropping it in a swamp, or crawling around in the sand with it, and it still being reliable.

So what would you all recommend? In order of importance, the qualities I am looking for would be
#1-reliability
a close #2- left handed ergonomics
#3-ease of service
#4-accuracy

I would obviously like to get one of each, but I don't have the means as of right now. So I am looking to get the most rugged, reliable, tough as nails one first, but I would still like it to be pleasant to shoot, especially as a lefty. Thanks for your time and help.

 

[-v-]

I'd suggest the following:

Saiga 308 and conversion to battle rifle. Controls and manual of arms seem easier for a left-handed user over a right handed, although its a toss up. Satisfies #1 and #3... 2MOA accuracy seems to be common with them.

AR-10 - can be set up to be left-hand friendly, accuracy can be SUB-MOA, manual of arms seems OK for a lefty. Keep it oiled up, and reliability of the AR10 seems fairly good.

 

[7.62 Nato]

In my simplistic opinion, the FAL is a BATTLE Rifle that works. It's proven reliable. Parts are available. Accuracy is more than adequate.

 

[nevermas]

FAL as well as the Keltec RFB

a friend of mine is a lefty, he's got both. But the Keltec RFB have ambidextrous controls for releasing the slide and releasing the magazine. Bullpup design, .308, uses standard FAL magazines.

Both are easy to take apart and clean, much easier than an M1a.

 

[madcratebuilder]

I would go with a M1A or an AR10. I just recently finished a AR10 and I now prefer it over my M1A's. It has a definite edge on accuracy and 100% reliability so far. The AR can be setup for a left or right handed shooter.

 

[Tirod]

Stag Left Handed AR15.

1) AR's are reliable, more so than some exposed bolt older guns with fixed operating handles.
2) It's made for lefties and has good reviews from left handed shooters. The transistion seemed almost immediate and natural for them.
3)The AR tears down easier and has more parts in the system than all the others together. Upgrade parts are more common and strangely enough, almost unnecessary.
4) The flattop A3 allows more sighting options on a stable mount that doesn't cost an arm and a leg (former HK 91 owner with a claw mount.) The flattop is also an integrated part of the upper, not a slap on cover or separate piece with return to zero liabilities.

There is a reason all the old .30 battle rifles got superceded, smaller intermediate cartridges do the job, you can carry more ammo, and shoot more of it. If that's not your cup of tea, ok, I know the lure of .30's. I just finally got tired of carrying around a lot of dead weight and ammo that had more power than opportunity will ever provide.

You can also add extra uppers in different calibers, a .22 for training, a 5.56 for the range, a 6.8 SPC for when you really mean it. Those old guns won't do that.

 

[Shear_stress]

The PTR is a good rifle but an ergonomic disaster area for the lefty. The lack of a bolt hold open device will make you curse the charging handle placement.

Stick with the FAL or M1A. The Saiga .308 is another good option.

 

[jem375]

I would go with the M1A personally..

 

[vanfunk]

The PTR is a good rifle but an ergonomic disaster area for the lefty. The lack of a bolt hold open device will make you curse the charging handle placement.

This must be a personal thing, as I am a lefty and have no problem with the ergonomics of the PTR-91/H&KG3. I think it does demand a recoil buffer, though. Those rounds come out of the ejection port at light speed - if one of those connects with your face, "it's gonna leave a mark." I had a DSA FAL, too, and offered no real advantage to me over the PTR (which was more accurate), except that it was more friendly to field strip. Ultimately I stuck with the M1A, but really only because I am a Garand fanatic. IMO, they're all great designs and have served millions in combat for 50 years.

In order:
Easiest to field strip: FAL, with M1A and PTR same, just different
Accuracy: PTR & M1A tied, FAL about a third less accurate with same ammo.
Lefty Ergos: FAL, M1A, PTR (though hardly unfriendly).
Reliability: All stone cold reliable. Advantage, none.

The best thing to do is to find a way to shoot all three before you buy.

vanfunk

 

[berettaprofessor]

Another lefty here. Tirod had it right; Stag AR15 Lefty would be a good choice.

And please; don't call it a "Battle Rifle". Unless you're planning on joining the military, it's unlikely you'll ever find yourself in a battle, despite the various SHTF fantasies we all tend to have. And in the meantime, we're feeding the anti-gun opposition with such nomenclature.

Let's just call it a semi-automatic left-hand friendly polymer hunting rifle with a collaspible stock and a box magazine, shall we?

Sorry, I must be feeling like it's Monday.

 

[desidog]

I'm a lefty and have tried all the major types.

I'd rule out the HK/PTR/FAL controls. They are combat ineffective for lefties, IMO.

AR types are serviceable, but mag changes and ejection can be an issue. An ambidexterous safety is essential.

AKs work a bit better than AR's for me, but the platform is not as inherently accurate, and the safety configuration is such that it results in an unsafetied gun more than a safety-conscious handler might prefer.

I prefer the controls of the M1A/Mini14, and you don't catch brass in the face. The in-line safety lever and mag release are by far the easiest to use with either hand for me.

Also, while not a battle rifle, I'll add that the Beretta CX4 carbine is the most Left-hand-user-friendly semiauto i've encountered; and for any type of defensive close range battle I'd probably pick it over my M1A, if afforded the luxury of calling the tee-time of a defensive battle..haha.

 

[taliv]

the ergos for AR pattern rifles are fantastic for lefties. you do NOT need a left-handed model.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I don't have any experience firing the FAL or the HK roller locks. I have handled a few of them at a foreign weapons class and at various gun stores and pawn shops. The FAL was okay for ergos, the HK, at least to me, sucked. I am right handed but left eye dominant so I shoot left handed and have the advantage of having my strongest and most coordinated hand operating the charging handle, and the HK is still all sorts of awkward.

I love the M1A/M14. Its been combat proven reliable and mine has certainly been very reliable. The controls are well placed and instinctive. The safety is ambi, as is the mag release. The charging handle is on the right, which works well for a lefty. I'd stick with the 18 inch barrel version if I was you. I have the 22 inch version and it seems a little ungainly for some chores. Great sights and an excellent trigger, and a lot of options for optics and accessories that didn't exist a decade or so ago. I love my M1A.

There is a reason all the old .30 battle rifles got superceded, smaller intermediate cartridges do the job, you can carry more ammo, and shoot more of it. If that's not your cup of tea, ok, I know the lure of .30's. I just finally got tired of carrying around a lot of dead weight and ammo that had more power than opportunity will ever provide.

You're making the all too common mistake of assuming military politics and doctrine apply in any way to any of the needs of a civilian gun owner. They don't. In the military, you are one of a 3 to 5 man fire team equipped with at least three select fire rifles and carbines, a fully automatic belt-fed M249 SAW, and at least one M203 40mm grenade launcher. In addition, you are part of a 11 to 13 man squad, all of which are similarly equipped and have access to frag grenades, AT4s, SMAWs, and all sorts of similar toys. You also will likely have the support of M240 LMGs, M2 HMGs, and Mk 19s on various lightly armored vehicles, as well as possible air support, Bradleys, Strikers, and other armored vehicles, artillery, ect. You are trained in tactics that involve a high degree of team work and coordination to "locate, close with, and destroy..." using suppressive fire and maneuver. Little or none of this applies to the civilian world. As a civilian, it is likely going to be you and possibly a much smaller group of what is more than likely less trained and physically capable "soldiers." Your family or a small group of friends, for example. Even if they have military experience or training, the tactics apply very little, because there are very few conceivable scenarios where you won't be held accountable for every round you fire. Therefore, suppressive fire isn't really a very valid tactic. You aren't legally justified dropping a mag into every window in a building because you take a pop shot from one of them. Plus, in the military, if your primary rifle doesn't have the range or the balls to reach something, you have other options. You can send .50 cal downrange from a Ma Deuce for example. As a civilian, you probably don't have 40mm HEDP or a radio with a Cobra gunship on the other end to get you out of sticky situations. So if you need to reach and touch at 500 or 600 yards, or if your target is behind a barrier, or if you need to disable a vehicle, and your primary rifle isn't up to the task, you're SOL. So a full power battle rifle makes a lot of sense for the civilian concerned with holding down the homestead against a variety of situations. A semi-automatic 7.62mm battle rifle is as much firepower as a civilian can get their hands on right now--no poodle shooter can match it for range, power, or utility.

the ergos for AR pattern rifles are fantastic for lefties. you do NOT need a left-handed model.

+1

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

I suggest either the AR-10 or the Kel Tec RFB. The RFB is purpose built to be left-hand friendly, whereas the AR-10 is accomodating.... Just remember to get the Bushmaster AR-10 that takes cheaper FAL metric mags.

(The PTR is sweet, and would require minimal maintenance, but it would take a bit of getting used to for a lefty. Especially mag changes, and the charging handle).

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

I couldn't have put it better myself.

I own a carbine, but I wouldn't look for it to be the end all.

 

[-v-]

Just remember to get the Bushmaster AR-10 that takes cheaper FAL metric mags.

FAL metric mags are $20+ a pop if you can find them. A DPMS, LMT, LWRC, or Knight's all take $12 Magpul P-Mags which are damn near indestructible, with a service life almost as long as the barrel life of most barrels.

But, choice is yours, either hard to find mil-surp $20+ mags or easy to find ultra-reliable $12 mags.

 

[JoeyMidwest]

Sorry about the "battle rifle" nomenclature. I was under the impression that is what an auto loading .308 caliber rifle was commonly called.

Thanks for all the input. I wanted to steer clear of AR platforms. I've always had an aversion to them. I don't like the gas impingement action. I stopped by a few shops today and held an M1a and a H&K 93, which I would assume would be very similar to the 91. I really liked the M1a a lot. The sight picture was exactly what I am looking for, and the overall feel of the rifle was great. The 93 felt a little awkward, but I don't think it is anything that I couldn't work around. I also have pretty short arms, and I actually liked the short length of pull of the 93. The M1a seemed a little long, but I'm sure the length of pull could be adjusted. Now I just need to get my hands on a FAL and fire all of them... Thanks again for all the input.

 

[peabody]

Tirod got it right.




myself, i'ed go with the AR15

 

[7.62 Nato]

There are shorter, and scout versions of the M1A including a 16" barrel version.

 

[1KPerDay]

The M1A is quite lefty-friendly. I don't see how the Saiga would be, at least where the safety is concerned. Otherwise the manual of arms is pretty much identical to the M1A.

An AR-type isn't bad either...

 

[LaEscopeta]

A second vote for the Saiga 308. The manual of arms is lefty friendly if you do everything except press the trigger with your right hand. This includes operating the safety right handed. Does not work so well if you want to use a shooting sling. If you keep the stock that it comes with (do not convert to a pistol grip) casings eject a few inches farther from your face.

 

[MetalHead]

One bit to add, I have started shooting Ar-15 left handed for both tactical and eye reasons, from the left shoulder it is louder. Not enough to look for a lefty upper but something to keep in mind. I've not shot other rifles lefty yet.
Saving my nickles for a RFB, might even have enough by the time they are available at a fair price.

 

[JoeyMidwest]

The RFB looks incredible, but no iron sights puts me off a little. I was just thinking the other day about how bullpups are so cool, but how completely lefty unfriendly they usually are. I'm still leaning towards the M1a... it just "feels" like a rifle to me, and I like that about it. Also, good adjustable iron sights is a big advantage in my opinion.

The Saiga seems like it would be a fun, fairly inexpensive gun to have, but I don't think I would want it as my main rifle, which is what I'm looking for right now. I probably won't be able to afford another rifle anytime soon, so I'd like to get one high quality, versatile, reliable, (as close to) indestructible rifle that will last at least my lifetime.

 

[The Law]

The M1A gets my vote.

 

[Mr. T]

Stag Arms makes left handed AR's that might work well for you.