Speed of WWI 30.06 Ammunition

[Gaucho Gringo]

I am sure all of us has said at one time or another I wish I had listened closer to a WWI or WWII vet when I was younger. In my case it is my step grandfather. In the late 60's my grandfather passed away, a year later my step grandfathers wife passed away. All of them had been close friends for over 40 years so it was no big thing that about a year later my grandmother married him. And here is where the gun related items come in. I used to go visit them frequently. My grandmother killed rattlesnakes that threatened me and her when she used to take me for walks in my stroller. She mounted them on a framed board that used to be in her house.
My step grandfather knew I iked guns and him and I would chat about them.This guy was in his late 80's, ramrod straight, having served in both WW's and retiring out of the reserves after over 45 years of service to his country. Think R Lee Emery only 6' 6". Anyway finally to the core of my question. From what he told me he was assigned to load development for the 30.06 during WWI. He told me that they had the 30.06 loadings up to around 3900 FPS. I was wondering how much of this is plausible. When I was talking to him abut this he was in his early 90's. Anyone have any comments or insights?

 

[PercyShelley]

Reloading sites on the internet claim 3,400 FPS for 95 grainers. If you were pushing pressures past SAAMI limits and using extra-long barrels, and didn't have a chronometer (which was a fairly common state of affairs back then), then sure, why not?

 

[daniel (australia)]

I wouldn't disbelieve it.

There was enormous amount of experimentation carried on at Frankfort Arsenal with respect to bullets and loads prior to, during and after WWI, and all sorts of things were tried, including light bullets, heavy bullets, taper-bore bullets, bullets of different shapes including tubular, vaned, various ogives including concave ogives and all sorts of bullet materials, case designs, ignition methods and propellants. Velocities over 3000 fps were being achieved before the close of the 19th century, using the Krnka-Hebler tubular bullet in the .30 Krag, and these velocities were improved upon as time went on.

Towards the end of WWI one aim in particular was more effective machine gun ammunition for long ranges, and hundreds of tests were carried out. Surprisingly high velocities were reached with some of these too, and by 1920 4500 fps was considered achievable using the Emmerson Arrowhead bullet, made of solid bronze, loaded into a standard .30/06 case, but accuracy was disappointing with that design and it didn't reach its potential.

Later, by the early 1930s, velocities of well over 4000 fps were reached with a number of different cartridge designs based on larger cases, and top whack of 5203 fps was achieved with a 90gn solid brass bullet fired from one of these in 1933.

 

[USSR]

Change the "3" to a "2", as in 2900fps, and I think you've got it.

Don

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Muzzle velocity of the 150 grain bullet from .30 M-1906 Ball ammunition during WWI was 2700 FPS, the same as the later 7.62 NATO round. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there was experimentation with lighter bullets at higher MV.

.30 M2 Ball of WW2 was the same bullet at 2800 FPS.

 

[4v50 Gary]

That must have been our 30-06 M-1 cartridge. It was our secret weapon of WW I and was intended for long range machinegun saturation fire. Most of our 30-06 cartridges were the lesser M-2 bullet.

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

Remington accelerator 55 grainers are close to 4,000. depends on what grain bullet he's talking about. If it's a 55 grain saboted bullet I believe him, I know that any of us can go pick up a box and do the same thing.

 

[Sunray]

"...were the lesser M-2 bullet..." No M2 ammo until 1939. The long range ammo came along in 1925 after finding that the M1906 ammo had a maximum range of 3300 to 3400 yards at an angle of about 19 to 45 degrees. About 50% less than French and British ammo.
Like daniel says, there were all kinds of experiments going on. Hatcher's Notebook has a whole chapter about ammo developement.

 

[USSR]

You have to remember, it was only just prior to WW1 that the 3,000fps barrier was broken with the introduction of the .250-3000 cartridge, and there were no saboted 55 grain bullets, etc. 2900fps would have been possible with the powders of the day and a lighter bullet, but 3900fps, no way.

Don

 

[daniel (australia)]

That must have been our 30-06 M-1 cartridge. It was our secret weapon of WW I and was intended for long range machinegun saturation fire. Most of our 30-06 cartridges were the lesser M-2 bullet.

.30 Ball M1 was a post WWI development, adopted in 1926. It actually arose out of the fact that the ammunition in use by other participants in WWI had much better reach than the original 1906 Ball loading. Of course the US forces used a fair bit of that other ammo, as they entered WWI without nearly enough machine guns and therefore used various British and French guns with widely varying levels of satisfaction.

Ball M1 had a 172gn boattailed bullet modelled on the Swiss 7.5 mm bullet, which had a muzzle velocity actually slightly slower than the 1906 Ball (2640 vs 2700 fps), but the heavier more streamlined M1 bullet had much better downrange ballistics - so good they were beyond the template of a lot of ranges when the round finally entered service, a fact which, coupled with the greater recoil, led to the introduction of the Ball M2 which had ballistics similar to the old 1906 number.

Remington accelerator 55 grainers are close to 4,000. depends on what grain bullet he's talking about. If it's a 55 grain saboted bullet I believe him, I know that any of us can go pick up a box and do the same thing.

Frankford Arsenal produced designs more radical than that, and surprisingly early. The Krnka-Hebler bullet I mentioned used a discarding base cup/sabot on a streamlined tubular bullet. In testing in 1894 a 104 gn bullet of this design, loaded into a .30 Krag, achieved 3000 fps. This was 20 years before WWI (23 years for the US).

What was achieved in that 20-odd years (and in the years that followed WWI) was an enormous amount of testing and experimentation, with all sorts of ideas tried. Of course not all of this was successful, but having some familiarity with what was done I have no great difficulty in accepting that velocities of up to 3900 fps were achieved with experimental loads by about the end of WW1. As I said, documented instrumental velocities well past that mark were being achieved not long after WWI ended.

 

[chestnut ridge]

I believe. I had an elderly neighbor that worked at Frankfort Arsenal
and he told me they worked on rifle cartridges that approached
5000 FPS.

 

[jpwilly]

5000 FPS - WOW! That's a Roman Mille Pasuum per second!