Speeding Ticket and CCW

[denton]

Well, in the first place, if an officer asks if you know why he pulled you over, he is actually asking you for a confession. The correct answer is that you don't know.

By all means, have your required documents on the dash and the window down about halfway by the time the officer reaches your car. These guys have to deal with the really crummy, irrational parts of society. All your actions should be calculated to meet the minimum requirements of producing documents and not giving the officer any reason whatever to worry about his/her personal safety.

Be polite, don't offer excuses, tell the truth (you don't actually know exactly how fast you were going), don't offer information that is not required. If you're supposed to notify if you're carrying, do that.

If you happen to get an officer that wants you to roll your window all the way, tell him you can hear him just fine. If he asks you to step out of the car, roll your window up, comply, and lock the door behind you. If he asks to search the car, inform him that you do not consent to any searches, except that if you have informed the officer that you have a firearm, do not do anything to obstruct him taking temporary possession of it.

It's really too bad to have to conduct business that way, but if you don't, there are certain jurisdictions where your car and all its contents, plus the contents of your wallet will suddenly become "drug related" and you will have to go through a nasty process to get them back. Jurisdictions like that make things miserable for the decent men and women doing a tough job in other jurisdictions.

 

[Davek1977]

Atom Smasher: I think I'd rather gamble in that manner than allow an officer who may or not be familiar with my particular firearm to remove and/or handle it in any manner. If I don't have a legal obligation to inform, I don't see the need to. I think it causes more problems than it potentially solves, and no one needs to have their hands on my firearm other than me. That's the only way I can guarantee it will be properly and safely handled. The second I surrender it to a third party, I have no such guarantees.

 

[Akita1]

Some officers are just afraid of guns, it would seem (I've known a couple like that). Personally, I appreciate it when people tell me that they are armed on traffic stops, just so there isn't any kind of misunderstanding if the gun is spotted by me in a "concerning" position during the stop. Notifying law enforcement of a gun isn't required in my state, but I've still always done it in the rare instances when I've been stopped off-duty, and my family members who carry have been advised to do the same.

My usual response to someone saying that they have a gun on them is to say something to the effect of: "okay, thanks for letting me know... just don't play with yours and I won't play with mine... hang on for just a minute and I'll be right back with you".

In most states the law allows for a police officer to temporarily disarm someone during a stop, as it sounds like this trooper did. Personally, I've never felt the need to do so when dealing with any person who has actually informed me that they had a gun. But, as you may have figured out by now, I'm not exactly an anti-gun guy.

Not all stops with guns go well, especially since I work in an area with a lot of crime/gangs. I had one recent stop where I pulled a car over that was occupied by an individual who was dressed in local gang colors (and the car had a records hit for a contact regarding gang activity). This guy's driver's side window was illegally mirror tinted so that you couldn't see inside, and the guy was acting feisty from the moment I walked up. As I approached him he put his window up most of the way at the last second, and initially refused my request to lower the window again (I was already concerned that he was trying to either gain control of a weapon or hide contraband). Anyway, as the window came back down I saw that the driver's hand was resting on top of a handgun that was pressed in between the seats. I ordered him to "show me your hands", and he started to turn into the car more, where I couldn't see if he was drawing the gun or not. At this point the guy found himself looking down the barrel of my gun, and he started saying "Hey man, it isn't loaded or anything". After explaining to him that my gun was in fact loaded, he finally complied with my orders. Turned out that he was only carrying a very realistic-looking pellet gun (certainly realistic enough to have got him shot if he had grabbed it), and had actually just used it to menace a rival gang member.

The point in all of this? Criminals aren't straight up and honest about the fact that they carry guns, and guns that are spotted in a condition like this can definitely get your blood pressure up when you're the officer standing at the driver's window. This guy gave me every reason to think that he was going to go for this "gun", and took the incident to a level it didn't need to go to ('cause he obviously wasn't planning to fight me with a pellet gun). Now, admittedly, this guy gave me a bunch of other clues that he was a bad dude, so the presence of a "gun" alone wasn't the only reason he got to take a look down mine. But, I still think there's usually some value in letting an officer know that you're carrying, just to avoid any tense misunderstandings.

In fairness, I've had cases where the good guys were carrying and didn't tell me, and I'll usually just let them know: "I see you have a gun there, please don't handle it during the stop. Okay?" I even had an absent minded lady reach into her glove box one day (forgetting her gun was there), and watched her nearly wet herself when the thing flopped out into her hand during the traffic stop. She was perhaps more surprised than I was, and quickly made it quite evident that she wasn't trying to grab a gun, so it wasn't anything that came off as threatening to me... but, again, I'm very comfortable with guns, and that could have been a tense situation for someone dealing with a less gun-accustomed officer. So, again, I think there is some value in voluntarily notifying an officer when there is a gun within your reach in a vehicle (I never notify about guns in the trunk, unless asked).

But, your milage may vary.

Kevin - I do it whenever stopped by handing the LEO my CWL with my DL, registration & insurance card. Twice FL State Troopers have thanked me and then told me I didn't need to inform them as long as I had a valid CWL at the time. I asked them how do they know that (that I have a valid CWL and/or I'm carrying or have a firearm in the car) unless they specifically ask and we proceeded to have great discussions about CC laws, how LEOs deal with it, etc. I come from a long line of LEOs and learned at a very young age that disclosure is pivotal to a positive experience, whether or not I get a ticket! Guess I have a soft spot for grossly underpaid and (mostly) unappreciated LEOs. Too many YouTube videos of what they do wrong versus doing what they do best.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Joe - it isn't a particularly good idea to be seen moving around by the LEO before he gets to your window. He might just come up with HIS piece already out and pointed at YOU. He might think you were reaching for and "crotching" a gun before he approaches you.

I've heard this the other way, too. I am an LE academy grad, but not currently an LEO.

One instructor said he liked to see people lean to the left, then duck over to the right, because that generally means someone is reaching into their pocket for a wallet and then into their glove box for their registration/proof of insurance.

YMMV.

 

[borderrattus]

Same thing happened to me outside of Phoenix, AZ. The deputy asked to see my handgun because the NCIC check showed an expired CCW. I asked why, he said it was procedure to run it through NCIC to check if it was stolen. I unloaded the gun, took possession of the mag and locked the slide back and handed it over with great angst grip first. He checked as he said he would but never left the area and out of my view since he was on a hand-held. He ASSUMED that that was the only weapon (I had another with me). I think it is best not to hand over a weapon to anyone and would not do the same in the future. In Arizona, law enforcement needs probable cause (PC) to search your vehicle and you do not have to state that you have a firearm. Best answer is, "Sorry, unless I am under arrest, I reserve the right to not answer that question. Am I under arrest?" Say it loud so that your dash cam and his/her recorder can pick up the conversation. Best and most commonsense thing to do is to keep any firearm out of the view of the public, including LE. There is no need to be disarmed for no reason (absence of PC) and to comply is a temporary suspension of your 2nd Amendment Rights and a possible deadly confrontation if the LE officer misreads your body language (normally adrenaline activated) when under stress. The remote chance that the LE person is really not a LE person (has happened on the SW border) can also lead to your extinction. Don't show it and don't lend it out....to anyone.

 

[borderrattus]

In AZ, a CCW comes up when they run your plate. I would guess that that technology is available everywhere now. God forbid that you are from a CCW State and get stopped in NY or NJ! ANything could happen and its all bad.

 

[Dnaltrop]

I've been pulled over once since getting my CCW, it comes out of my wallet, on top of the license, Beatific smile glued to my face, chirpy, happy voice ( which is hard as a Bass-range speaker)

"Good afternoon Officer, before we get underway,I know we don't have mandatory declaration here, but I like to be open about things. I'm carrying a .40 M&P, in an IWB at 4 'o clock, serial # XXXXXXX... Would it make you more comfortable for the duration of the stop if I let you hold it? "

"Um, No thank you, but thank you for your honesty."

My insurance company had been taking my money, but registered me as Uninsured by the State systems, He should have towed my car on the spot given the information in his systems.

He let me go in a few minutes with a warning. ( 3 days of calls to my bank for payment records and my insurance company to ask where the money went after)

I've never been good at lying to people, even if it's a Lie of Omission. Brutal honesty and a guileless manner seems to cover the situations that might be more easily served by a touch of secrecy.

 

[Dean1818]

I think we should give the benefit of the doubt to the LEOs

If you think about it...... No rights were violated

You WERE breaking a law.

We have people on the board seeking to hassle every LEO they encounter(not saying the OP)

The overwhelming majority of LEOs have been good folks.......... Just trying to get through the shift

They deal with idiots on regular basis.

I would also add that I have never been ticketed when I inform......

ALWAYS a warning........ And I drive off, with my weapon....... And no ticket


Just because a very few LEOs (maybe 5%) are jacks........ They shouldnt all be treated that way

 

[NavyLCDR]

Same thing happened to me outside of Phoenix, AZ. The deputy asked to see my handgun because the NCIC check showed an expired CCW. I asked why, he said it was procedure to run it through NCIC to check if it was stolen. I unloaded the gun, took possession of the mag and locked the slide back and handed it over with great angst grip first. He checked as he said he would but never left the area and out of my view since he was on a hand-held. He ASSUMED that that was the only weapon (I had another with me). I think it is best not to hand over a weapon to anyone and would not do the same in the future. In Arizona, law enforcement needs probable cause (PC) to search your vehicle and you do not have to state that you have a firearm. Best answer is, "Sorry, unless I am under arrest, I reserve the right to not answer that question. Am I under arrest?" Say it loud so that your dash cam and his/her recorder can pick up the conversation. Best and most commonsense thing to do is to keep any firearm out of the view of the public, including LE. There is no need to be disarmed for no reason (absence of PC) and to comply is a temporary suspension of your 2nd Amendment Rights and a possible deadly confrontation if the LE officer misreads your body language (normally adrenaline activated) when under stress. The remote chance that the LE person is really not a LE person (has happened on the SW border) can also lead to your extinction. Don't show it and don't lend it out....to anyone.

The officer conducted a warrantless search without probable cause of a crime being committed when he ran the serial number of your gun without any reason to believe that it was stolen.

I think we should give the benefit of the doubt to the LEOs

Just because a very few LEOs (maybe 5%) are jacks........ They shouldnt all be treated that way

My choosing to keep my private CPL and my private firearm private and not disclose it to the officer when I am not required to by law has nothing to do with not giving them the benefit of the doubt or treating them like a "jack". It is simply my choice to not interject anything irrelevent into the situation that is not required to be.

 

[mdauben]

My thought is, I feel there was no reason for him to take possession of her firearm at all. She has paid the ticket but I still feel that she should complain to the sheriff. I live in Missouri where there is no need for weapon in a car regardless of CCW status.

I agree, there was no reason for him to take possesion of her firearm. This is why I don't volunteer the information unless I'm legally required to (or its likely to become obvious). On the other hand, its not uncommon for departments to have written standard operating procedures allowing officers to take possesion of guns "for their safety" during traffic stops, etc. so complaining to the sheriff is unlikely to do any good at all.

 

[Hoppes Love Potion]

I think it was reasonable for the cop to take possession of the gun. It was within reach of a minor, and the officer doesn't know you or your daughter. It was a reasonable precaution and there should be no feelings hurt on either side.

 

[borderrattus]

@Johnny Dollar,

You will find much disagreement to this statement here on THR. And welcome to THR. I hope you enjoy your stay.


Thanks for the welcome and comment.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I think it was reasonable for the cop to take possession of the gun. It was within reach of a minor, and the officer doesn't know you or your daughter. It was a reasonable precaution and there should be no feelings hurt on either side.

I actually agree, in this instance. I find it humorous when people feel the need to tell the officer about their gun, when not required to, and then get upset when that officer takes their gun from them.