Squib Research

[Orcon]

My one and only squib to date was within my first 100 rounds of handloaded ammo. It was due to a primed case with no powder.

 

[Legionnaire]

One to date, been loading a long time. My error, not the equipment.

 

[goon]

I heard or read somewhere that Squibs from reloading happen more often with a progressive press than with a single stage or turret press. I don't know if that is true or not, but thought I would ask the question in a poll. For those that that reload, have you ever had a squib, and if so, then what do you use to reload - SS, Turret or Progressive?

I had a couple squibs. They were with Win 7.62x54 brass I bought from Midway around 2003 - 2004. The brass was primed but still had lube inside, which contaminated my powder. Promptly quit using it - Midway had other complaints and was issuing full refunds.

 

[Blue68f100]

I've had 1 squid and it was a operator error, not equipment related. I had a problem on my AP, cleared the jam but failed to load the stations back correctly. Now when I ever get a jam I empty all the stations and start over. The ones cleared will be dealt with at the end of the session.

If your procedures are good you will never have a squid unless you get a dud primer. I've had a total of 2 in over 50 yrs of hand loading.

 

[webrx]

Thank you to everyone who responded, as suspected, so far, it seems the type of press does not matter much in terms of squibs, and to my surprise, the most manual process, actually results in more squibs on single stages presses - primarily due to process interruption.

Reading the responses is enlightening, and almost exclusively removes the press as the potential culprit and places emphasis on process, and checking the powder load.

I spent some time yesterday watching videos on progressive presses, and IMO they are a lot like a self indexing turret, only more going on with each pull you are adding brass, adding a bullet, putting in powder, etc one pull one bullet once you get on a roll.

I guess I could see where with everything going on (especially if you are manually adding brass and bullets not using a bullet feeder or case feeder), someone could get so much going on that they might miss the visually check the powder step, but, I also suspect if someone is going to the expense of picking up a progressive, they will also add the needed "automation" items.

As said above, squibs seem to be operator error, not really anything related to the machine at least so far.

Another interesting things is the old adage, either you have had a squib or you will, well, so far about 58% have not and 40% are long time reloaders.

That may change with more votes, but, interesting to see that it is not a rarity to not have a squib.

Thanks again

 

[Seedy Character]

Of course more occurrences of squib happen with single stage press users.
They outnumber all others all others combined, by 5-1 or more

 

[Charlie98]

A better question might be... not what kind of press you are using, but your method of powder dispense.

 

[LiveLife]

A better question might be... not what kind of press you are using, but your method of powder dispense.

I agree that primary cause of squibs is how powder charges got added to the cases or metered into the cases regardless of type of press used.

Another question might be ... "Did you get squibs when you first started reloading or do you get squibs now?"

 

[mdi]

I had one in 1970 when using a Lee Loader. I learned from that and every case is inspected before bullet seating. None since...

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I agree that primary cause of squibs is how powder charges got added to the cases or metered into the cases regardless of type of press used.

Another question might be ... "Did you get squibs when you first started reloading or do you get squibs now?"

I mentioned in another thread, folks with $100K + invested in reloading gear buy machines that need almost no operator intervention - which is what makes them pricey - and won't tolerate imperfect ammo. When you remove the operator from the equation, it is all up to quality of components and quality of machine build/maintenance. I wouldn't expect somebody who's spent that kind of money to lapse on maintenance or skimp-out on materials so those get removed from the equation, too. What's left is did the buyer remember to get the right checks and set them up correctly? I doubt it would take a squib load to find out.

People like me who spend less than $100 on reloading gear rely on practice and process alone - no mechanical checks - and that's where operator error becomes a factor. I am kind of surprised how many progressive press users have had squib loads, to be honest. They must be the people who didn't buy a powder check/lock-out when they bought the press.

 

[uzimon]

A few times. Turret.
The projectile freezes at the start of the rifling. Another round cant chamber

 

[Gone Hiking]

Long time loader, progressive press. I've had one squib with 9mm that went off during rapid fire. The bullet didn't clear the chamber. I didn't notice it at the time and did 4 tap-racks before giving up and saying, "Ok, what gives?" I honestly don't remember if the slide fully cycled after the squib, but after the tap-racks, I realized the rounds would not chamber since they were hitting the squib.

The progressive press, imo, removes much of the worry about squibs when everything is running smoothly, since it's all largely mechanical. The danger zone comes when something jams up; a case neck getting mashed instead of flared for example. So often in those instances, you must manually advance or back up the cases in the press to correct the problem. That interruption of order is what invites human error. Once you fix the problem, it is critical to make sure you pick up with the cases in their correct positions or you could load a squib or even double charge with some combos.

Part of my final QA with finished rifle rounds and magnum pistol rounds is to weigh every one on a cheap digital scale. Even if there are 3-6 grns of variation between them in that screening process (due to case weight differences, etc.), it will be very apparent if you get one that is wayyy too heavy (double charge) or too light (squib). Such a screening with mixed 9mm range brass loads, however, is virtually impossible because the range of case weights exceeds the actual charge weight. For that reason, I'm particularly cautious with small caliber pistol rounds.

 

[cfullgraf]

People like me who spend less than $100 on reloading gear rely on practice and process alone - no mechanical checks - and that's where operator error becomes a factor. I am kind of surprised how many progressive press users have had squib loads, to be honest. They must be the people who didn't buy a powder check/lock-out when they bought the press.

My squibs generated on a progressive press were during clearing a jam or an other problem that caused a stoppage of routine operation. These were during the early days of learning the operation of the progressive press

Once the steep part of the learning curve was left in the rear view mirror and the appropriate corrective steps in clearing the problem were developed, squibs have also been left in the rear view mirror.

I’d been reloading for 29 years on a single stage press before transitioning to a progressive press. There is alot going on with a progressive at one time and the learning curve in beginning is steep.

While I had a problem or two during start up, at least I knew what to do when a squib reared its ugly head.

 

[1976B.L.Johns.]

The few squibs I have had were from not seating the primer correctly...
Scared beginner....those fired on the second attempt.

Ain't scared no more!

 

[Bfh_auto]

I heard or read somewhere that Squibs from reloading happen more often with a progressive press than with a single stage or turret press. I don't know if that is true or not, but thought I would ask the question in a poll. For those that that reload, have you ever had a squib, and if so, then what do you use to reload - SS, Turret or Progressive?

I have. But it was only with starting loads of CFE-Pistol. It was a pop filled by a fizzle. No recoil and a bullet stuck in the forcing cone.

 

[EricBu]

I mentioned in another thread, folks with $100K + invested in reloading gear buy machines that need almost no operator intervention - which is what makes them pricey - and won't tolerate imperfect ammo. When you remove the operator from the equation, it is all up to quality of components and quality of machine build/maintenance. I wouldn't expect somebody who's spent that kind of money to lapse on maintenance or skimp-out on materials so those get removed from the equation, too. What's left is did the buyer remember to get the right checks and set them up correctly? I doubt it would take a squib load to find out.

People like me who spend less than $100 on reloading gear rely on practice and process alone - no mechanical checks - and that's where operator error becomes a factor. I am kind of surprised how many progressive press users have had squib loads, to be honest. They must be the people who didn't buy a powder check/lock-out when they bought the press.

Man, you'd be surprised at some of the stuff I've seen from small ammo companies. 1/2 inch of layered powder/metal shavings, never been greased, shell plate hasn't even been pulled off in 20 years. 1050's that have a million rounds through, and so much play in the main bearing it sounds like a rod nocking in a '72 plymouth.....and they're still pushing it as fast as they can with a auto drive. Camdex machines, ammo land machines, old winchester machines.........so worn out from little to no maintenance.......you go out and look at some of these things on the used market, or business/estate sales.......and you can't fathom how that thing was possibly still turning out decent ammo. The number of old dillons out there with auto drives and NO powder checking system is frightening. It's a completely unregulated industry, and there are a ton of small companies around the country that have no QA program, no maintenance schedule, no PMCS process, no baseline process for validating consistency over time. So many of these companies exist on the verge of bankruptcy, no margin at all.....and they have no backups or fall back plans for standing down machines for a refurb, or at least component level maintenance. And 100K investment really doesn't get all that much, certainly doesn't get you "almost no operator intervention". I mean, really, by the time you add in all the supporting equipment, you're looking at 2 Camdex machines and a few other smaller things, or maybe you go Mark 7 Revolution today, by the time you add in all the sensors, you're getting 5 machines, and yeah, still need operator intervention, but there's thousands of smaller companies who haven't made that investment. For years, the small ammo maker industry has ran on the backs of dillons with or without auto drives........and let me tell you, and anybody who's cranking out ammo at a commerical level will vouch......there is not such thing as little or no operator intervention on a 20 year old driven dillon.......you got to watch that thing like a hawk. I know guys who can and do run a few at once......and they will either admit to some of the disasters, or they're lying. Imagine if you will, what happens on a auto driven 1050 with no sensors if your dumping into a 5 gallon bucket.......and you get distracted for 5 minutes....and you're loading 44 Mag with something similar to H110.......no powder check........measure empties FAST, press keeps on chumming along until you catch it. Now you have 20 or 50 or whatever perfectly loaded 44 Mag bullets with no powder........in a 5 gallon bucket with 3K finished rounds? Yeah, your done for the day......no new ammo produced. Youve got to go back and scrub that entire bucket, 44 Mag is not so bad, you can weight them to find the empties.......9mm? You're pulling 3K rounds. Miss one? You've just sent a squib out the door. Things are waaaay better now of course, things like the mark 7 drive with the cpu control system tied into sensors.......will full stop if something goes wrong. But trust me when I tell you, the number of guys out there still running on old equipment, with cobbled drives and no automated sensors is huge. You got to sell a LOT of ammo to pay for a Revolution or a Camdex, damn near have to run it 24/7 to get it to return money to you within the first 3 years of owning. And that is why there are so many ragged out machines on the used market.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Man, you'd be surprised at some of the stuff I've seen from small ammo companies. 1/2 inch of layered powder/metal shavings, never been greased, shell plate hasn't even been pulled off in 20 years. 1050's that have a million rounds through, and so much play in the main bearing it sounds like a rod nocking in a '72 plymouth.....and they're still pushing it as fast as they can with a auto drive. Camdex machines, ammo land machines, old winchester machines.........so worn out from little to no maintenance.......you go out and look at some of these things on the used market, or business/estate sales.......and you can't fathom how that thing was possibly still turning out decent ammo. The number of old dillons out there with auto drives and NO powder checking system is frightening. It's a completely unregulated industry, and there are a ton of small companies around the country that have no QA program, no maintenance schedule, no PMCS process, no baseline process for validating consistency over time. So many of these companies exist on the verge of bankruptcy, no margin at all.....and they have no backups or fall back plans for standing down machines for a refurb, or at least component level maintenance. And 100K investment really doesn't get all that much, certainly doesn't get you "almost no operator intervention". I mean, really, by the time you add in all the supporting equipment, you're looking at 2 Camdex machines and a few other smaller things, or maybe you go Mark 7 Revolution today, by the time you add in all the sensors, you're getting 5 machines, and yeah, still need operator intervention, but there's thousands of smaller companies who haven't made that investment. For years, the small ammo maker industry has ran on the backs of dillons with or without auto drives........and let me tell you, and anybody who's cranking out ammo at a commerical level will vouch......there is not such thing as little or no operator intervention on a 20 year old driven dillon.......you got to watch that thing like a hawk. I know guys who can and do run a few at once......and they will either admit to some of the disasters, or they're lying. Imagine if you will, what happens on a auto driven 1050 with no sensors if your dumping into a 5 gallon bucket.......and you get distracted for 5 minutes....and you're loading 44 Mag with something similar to H110.......no powder check........measure empties FAST, press keeps on chumming along until you catch it. Now you have 20 or 50 or whatever perfectly loaded 44 Mag bullets with no powder........in a 5 gallon bucket with 3K finished rounds? Yeah, your done for the day......no new ammo produced. Youve got to go back and scrub that entire bucket, 44 Mag is not so bad, you can weight them to find the empties.......9mm? You're pulling 3K rounds. Miss one? You've just sent a squib out the door. Things are waaaay better now of course, things like the mark 7 drive with the cpu control system tied into sensors.......will full stop if something goes wrong. But trust me when I tell you, the number of guys out there still running on old equipment, with cobbled drives and no automated sensors is huge. You got to sell a LOT of ammo to pay for a Revolution or a Camdex, damn near have to run it 24/7 to get it to return money to you within the first 3 years of owning. And that is why there are so many ragged out machines on the used market.

I was actually referring to some of the posters HERE who have that (and more) invested in their own personal equipment. @LiveLife has said before he has over $250K invested in reloading supplies and gear and there are others who've posted they have $100K + invested, at a minimum. But, I get what you're saying and can't dispute it so, I retract my post and apologize for getting it wrong.

 

[LiveLife]

@LiveLife has said before he has over $250K invested in reloading supplies and gear

Dang, since wife gets to spend double what I spend on my hobbies, you are going to get me in trouble with wife.

I have actually over $180K spent on gun related expenses past 30 years with about $160K of it going to reloading equipment and supplies to have reloaded over 650,000 rounds of pistol caliber (I didn't keep track of rifle rounds and averaged 10K-20K 22LR per year on top of pistol/rifle rounds).

Anyhoo, getting back to OP, I did have squibs during early part of my reloading life but it was not related to press type (I had single stage, turret and progressive at the time) as powder charge/metering was the identified cause so it was "operator error". Since then, I have added Quality Control steps to my reloading process so regardless of type of press I use, I have small inspection mirrors (Dentist/Automotive type) to ensure powder charge inside case before I place a bullet and I have not had a squib since the QC steps were added.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Dang, since wife gets to spend double what I spend on my hobbies, you are going to get me in trouble with wife.

I have actually over $180K spent on gun related expenses past 30 years with about $160K of it going to reloading equipment and supplies to have reloaded over 650,000 rounds of pistol caliber (I didn't keep track of rifle rounds and averaged 10K-20K 22LR per year on top of pistol/rifle rounds).

Anyhoo, getting back to OP, I did have squibs during early part of my reloading life but it was not related to press type (I had single stage, turret and progressive at the time) as powder charge/metering was the identified cause so it was "operator error". Since then, I have added Quality Control steps to my reloading process so regardless of type of press I use, I have small inspection mirrors (Dentist/Automotive type) to ensure powder charge inside case before I place a bullet and I have not had a squib since the QC steps were added.

I could be wrong (again) but, from your posts and those of others who are high-volume reloaders here on THR, I really can't see you folks having, "1/2 inch of layered powder/metal shavings, never been greased, shell plate hasn't even been pulled off in 20 years. 1050's that have a million rounds through, and so much play in the main bearing it sounds like a rod nocking in a '72 plymouth..." Your poll on reloading presses revealed quite a few high-/higher-volume reloaders who flip a switch and go do other reloading tasks. I don't think they're the types who operate that sloppy either. But, I'm not an expert on the industry like Blu - and wasn't really thinking of commercial operations in response to the OP, I was just thinking it's the investment in gear and care for friends and families that create the desire to produce perfect ammo, even in high volume.

 

[LiveLife]

I really can't see you folks having, "1/2 inch of layered powder/metal shavings, never been greased, shell plate hasn't even been pulled off in 20 years. 1050's that have a million rounds through, and so much play in the main bearing it sounds like a rod nocking in a '72 plymouth..."

Oh my ...

My presses get wiped down and lubed each reloading session and ones that operated over hundreds of thousands cycles had worn parts replaced because finished rounds must meet tight powder charge metering criteria of around .1 gr variance and dimensions within thousandths of an inch.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The few squibs I have had were from not seating the primer correctly...
Scared beginner....those fired on the second attempt.

Ain't scared no more!

Well, the good news is, if it fired and cleared the barrel, it isn't a squib load. My understanding of the word has always been that a squib is an underpowered load which does not clear the chamber/barrel. Mostly, a squib is powderless but I think most reloaders consider a load with insufficient powder - or maybe even "bad" powder ??? - which can't clear the barrel and "sticks" a bullet to be a squib. I have heard people refer to oversize bullets as squibs, too but really, IMHO, that's a different issue. I overpowered a HBWC once and stuck a skirt in the forcing cone of a revolver but that's not a squib, it's an over-pressure load resulting in an obstruction. Not every stuck bullet is a squib but every powderless/underpowered load that sticks a bullet is a squib.

The bad news is, you're still due for one.

 

[EricBu]

I could be wrong (again) but, from your posts and those of others who are high-volume reloaders here on THR, I really can't see you folks having, "1/2 inch of layered powder/metal shavings, never been greased, shell plate hasn't even been pulled off in 20 years. 1050's that have a million rounds through, and so much play in the main bearing it sounds like a rod nocking in a '72 plymouth..." Your poll on reloading presses revealed quite a few high-/higher-volume reloaders who flip a switch and go do other reloading tasks. I don't think they're the types who operate that sloppy either. But, I'm not an expert on the industry like Blu - and wasn't really thinking of commercial operations in response to the OP, I was just thinking it's the investment in gear and care for friends and families that create the desire to produce perfect ammo, even in high volume.

There's plenty of dudes doing it right.....I'm just saying, just because somebody is investing in high dollar equipment.....doesn't mean they are taking the same level of care that most people on THR exhibit. It's also a very linear thing, no matter how careful you are. If you produce 100 rounds a day, meticulously loading on a single stage, verifying every step......you're risk is much lower than somebody producing 10,000 rounds a day relying on everything working right. The more volume, the greater risk of something going wrong. Part of the overall risk mitigation is maintenance, testing, validation, and QC, and catching potential cascading failures. power supply dies on powder check, you don't do a morning PM before starting a run.......and the stop logic wasn't configured correctly on your Mark 7 tablet, which you don't realize because you never tested it..walk away 5 minutes.....and all the automation and sensors in the world don't save you from that empty measure. One of the foundational pillars of being a quality loader, doesn't matter if it's a single stage, or the biggest high output modern whizbang flux capacitor money can buy. Create a process, validate the process, maintain vigilance, and keep your equipment clean and well maintained. It all comes together to mitigate your risk in producing something that could ruin your day, or worse, somebody else's.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

There's plenty of dudes doing it right.....I'm just saying, just because somebody is investing in high dollar equipment.....doesn't mean they are taking the same level of care that most people on THR exhibit. It's also a very linear thing, no matter how careful you are. If you produce 100 rounds a day, meticulously loading on a single stage, verifying every step......you're risk is much lower than somebody producing 10,000 rounds a day relying on everything working right. The more volume, the greater risk of something going wrong. Part of the overall risk mitigation is maintenance, testing, validation, and QC, and catching potential cascading failures. power supply dies on powder check, you don't do a morning PM before starting a run.......and the stop logic wasn't configured correctly on your Mark 7 tablet, which you don't realize because you never tested it..walk away 5 minutes.....and all the automation and sensors in the world don't save you from that empty measure. One of the foundational pillars of being a quality loader, doesn't matter if it's a single stage, or the biggest high output modern whizbang flux capacitor money can buy. Create a process, validate the process, maintain vigilance, and keep your equipment clean and well maintained. It all comes together to mitigate your risk in producing something that could ruin your day, or worse, somebody else's.

Yeah, thanks. I'm pretty sure from reading my own posts on the topic we're basically in agreement: it isn't the type of press but the type of reloader and their level of dedication that prevents no-powder cartridges. The high-volume club competition guys just seem pickier and more OCD about the process than us low-dollar country grubs making a box or two of plinking ammo a month - or a few rounds of hunting ammo every few months. I been real lucky never to have forgot the powder in a load (yet) but all I got to rely on is good habits and experience - because I'm too broke/cheap to invest in technology - but really the OP's question was if the TYPE of press makes a difference - turret, single-stage or progressive - and I think we all agree it doesn't. It's the human factor that leads to mistakes - including not updating your tablet if that's part of your reloading routine - and anything that reliably removes the human factor could be a help. Could not. Like I say, I'm not the expert. Thanks for the corrections.

 

[EricBu]

Yeah, thanks. I'm pretty sure from reading my own posts on the topic we're basically in agreement: it isn't the type of press but the type of reloader and their level of dedication that prevents no-powder cartridges. The high-volume club competition guys just seem pickier and more OCD about the process than us low-dollar country grubs making a box or two of plinking ammo a month - or a few rounds of hunting ammo every few months. I been real lucky never to have forgot the powder in a load (yet) but all I got to rely on is good habits and experience - because I'm too broke/cheap to invest in technology - but really the OP's question was if the TYPE of press makes a difference - turret, single-stage or progressive - and I think we all agree it doesn't. It's the human factor that leads to mistakes - including not updating your tablet if that's part of your reloading routine - and anything that reliably removes the human factor could be a help. Could not. Like I say, I'm not the expert. Thanks for the corrections.

I didn't mean to come across as correcting you, we're both in agreement...I guess I just wanted to stress that just because somebody throws lots of money at it, doesn't make them any better at the process, and the guy just doing a few on a single stage with a better process, will trump the guy with 150K in equipment and a bad process, and vice versa...every time. The guy with money to invest, and a good process is the dream...and in the commercial world right now, those guys are putting some solid folding money in their pocket and will do so for at least another year.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I didn't mean to come across as correcting you, we're both in agreement...I guess I just wanted to stress that just because somebody throws lots of money at it, doesn't make them any better at the process, and the guy just doing a few on a single stage with a better process, will trump the guy with 150K in equipment and a bad process, and vice versa...every time. The guy with money to invest, and a good process is the dream...and in the commercial world right now, those guys are putting some solid folding money in their pocket and will do so for at least another year.

Not a problem. I know very little about mass-production reloading, commercial or otherwise. I started reloading in around 1977 and have been off-again/on-again since. That's right around 40 or so years as a handloader BUT I doubt I've loaded as many rounds in all that time as some of these club and comp guys/gals do in a month. My volume has always been real low as have been my needs - but that's me. You go right on correcting me. I had it wrong and don't mind being told so. I had no idea there were small operators out there who were so sloppy and downright dangerous. Now I know - and so does everyone reading this thread who, like me, kind of assumed folks with a big investment in gear and reputation protected both jealously.