Mark Tyson
Member
St. Louis Police Confused, Fearful Over New Gun Law
10/09/2003
By Bill Bryan, St. Louis Post-Dispatch
Suppose St. Louis police stop a car late at night in a high-crime neighborhood for a traffic violation. Suppose there's a 21-year-old in the vehicle, along with three 20-year-olds. And suppose officers find four guns on the floor.
"What do the police do?" asked Mike Stelzer, an associate city counselor assigned to the St. Louis Police Department who offered the scenario.
He knows what the cops would do today: Confiscate the weapons, arrest the occupants and figure it was a blow struck for public safety.
But Stelzer has no idea what to tell officers to do beginning on Saturday, when Missouri's new "concealed carry" law takes effect. Under its terms, a person 21 or over is allowed to carry a firearm in a vehicle, even without a concealed-carry permit.
But would the presence of one person over 21 make all four guns lawful? Or 10 guns?
"This is scary stuff," said Stelzer. "A police officer's job is hard enough without something like this. Can we seize those guns? Can we arrest anybody in the car? We don't have the answers yet."
Police Chief Joe Mokwa worries about those kinds of details, and the larger question of whether the new law allowing the carrying of concealed weapons - and the automobile provision in particular - will erode progress made into cutting violence on city streets.
St. Louis has been on pace this year to register the fewest homicides in more than 40 years.
Mokwa's force confiscates about 3,000 guns a year, more than half of them in car stops. The law will surely mean fewer gun seizures, the chief figures, and he hopes it doesn't translate into more crime.
"This is a big concern for us," Mokwa said.
He is not alone.
St. Louis County Police Chief Ron Battelle said, "A lot of this new law is ridiculous. We've got some real concerns about officer safety."
Battelle said it will be up to prosecutors and judges to guide police on parameters for seizing guns from cars.
"It might be scary for the first year or so," he said. "We hope things turn out pretty well like they did in other states with concealed carry that we've surveyed."
Illinois police face no uncertainties about the new law. Carrying a readily accessible firearm there remains a felony - punishable by up to three years in prison - even for a Missourian with a permit and forgetful mind.
"When you cross that bridge, you're subject to our laws," said Lt. Bob Dunn of the Illinois State Police. "Our gun laws didn't used to be much different than Missouri's, but they're going to be a whole lot different real soon."
And when Illinois law says gun, it also means stun guns - devices that deliver a powerful electric shock.
Dunn said the best way to avoid trouble in Illinois is to leave the gun in Missouri. Otherwise, he recommends keeping it unloaded in the vehicle's trunk and in a container designed to hold it. If a vehicle doesn't have a trunk and a weapon is within easy reach, it should be broken down into a nonfunctioning condition.
He said Illinois troopers have not received any special instructions to deal with the new law. "We'll be taking the same actions and precautions we've taken all along," he said.
But in Missouri, police commanders are reminding officers to be especially careful as they balance their own safety against the new experience of coming across law-abiding people with loaded weapons.
The Missouri State Highway Patrol advises anyone pulled over by police to turn on the dome light if it's at night, to keep hands on the steering wheel and to inform the approaching officer immediately if there is a gun present.
Common sense, troopers say, suggests not reaching into a glove box or purse or under a seat.
"We already approach a car expecting a gun anyway," said St. Charles County sheriff's Detective Gary Pollard.
The St. Louis Police Department is so anxious over the new law that it is taking out advertisements in newspapers to urge people with guns to behave responsibly.
The law is written in such a way that a person is not required to tell an officer that he or she is armed.
"We hope people are thoughtful in their dealings with the police," Mokwa said.
The new law allows Missouri residents over age 21 to have in vehicles weapons that are otherwise legal for them to possess. Police say that rules out past felons but leaves open an array of others. A permit is required to purchase a handgun in Missouri, a city police official said, but not necessarily to possess a pistol that was a gift or inheritance.
To carry a concealed weapon outside a vehicle, the new law allows people 23 and older to apply to the local sheriff. It imposes conditions such as a criminal background check, safety training and payment of a fee. Officials are expected to start taking applications early next week.
Police say they fear the new law may give armed citizens a false sense of security.
"A firearm can make someone think they have some mythical power that protects them from harm," Mokwa said.
He also said the gun law may lead burglars to target cars parked outside places where guns are not allowed, such as large sports events. "People shouldn't open their trunk, drop their weapon inside and assume that nobody saw them do it," he said.
Paul Hampel and Susan Weich of the Post-Dispatch contributed to this report.
10/09/2003
By Bill Bryan, St. Louis Post-Dispatch
Suppose St. Louis police stop a car late at night in a high-crime neighborhood for a traffic violation. Suppose there's a 21-year-old in the vehicle, along with three 20-year-olds. And suppose officers find four guns on the floor.
"What do the police do?" asked Mike Stelzer, an associate city counselor assigned to the St. Louis Police Department who offered the scenario.
He knows what the cops would do today: Confiscate the weapons, arrest the occupants and figure it was a blow struck for public safety.
But Stelzer has no idea what to tell officers to do beginning on Saturday, when Missouri's new "concealed carry" law takes effect. Under its terms, a person 21 or over is allowed to carry a firearm in a vehicle, even without a concealed-carry permit.
But would the presence of one person over 21 make all four guns lawful? Or 10 guns?
"This is scary stuff," said Stelzer. "A police officer's job is hard enough without something like this. Can we seize those guns? Can we arrest anybody in the car? We don't have the answers yet."
Police Chief Joe Mokwa worries about those kinds of details, and the larger question of whether the new law allowing the carrying of concealed weapons - and the automobile provision in particular - will erode progress made into cutting violence on city streets.
St. Louis has been on pace this year to register the fewest homicides in more than 40 years.
Mokwa's force confiscates about 3,000 guns a year, more than half of them in car stops. The law will surely mean fewer gun seizures, the chief figures, and he hopes it doesn't translate into more crime.
"This is a big concern for us," Mokwa said.
He is not alone.
St. Louis County Police Chief Ron Battelle said, "A lot of this new law is ridiculous. We've got some real concerns about officer safety."
Battelle said it will be up to prosecutors and judges to guide police on parameters for seizing guns from cars.
"It might be scary for the first year or so," he said. "We hope things turn out pretty well like they did in other states with concealed carry that we've surveyed."
Illinois police face no uncertainties about the new law. Carrying a readily accessible firearm there remains a felony - punishable by up to three years in prison - even for a Missourian with a permit and forgetful mind.
"When you cross that bridge, you're subject to our laws," said Lt. Bob Dunn of the Illinois State Police. "Our gun laws didn't used to be much different than Missouri's, but they're going to be a whole lot different real soon."
And when Illinois law says gun, it also means stun guns - devices that deliver a powerful electric shock.
Dunn said the best way to avoid trouble in Illinois is to leave the gun in Missouri. Otherwise, he recommends keeping it unloaded in the vehicle's trunk and in a container designed to hold it. If a vehicle doesn't have a trunk and a weapon is within easy reach, it should be broken down into a nonfunctioning condition.
He said Illinois troopers have not received any special instructions to deal with the new law. "We'll be taking the same actions and precautions we've taken all along," he said.
But in Missouri, police commanders are reminding officers to be especially careful as they balance their own safety against the new experience of coming across law-abiding people with loaded weapons.
The Missouri State Highway Patrol advises anyone pulled over by police to turn on the dome light if it's at night, to keep hands on the steering wheel and to inform the approaching officer immediately if there is a gun present.
Common sense, troopers say, suggests not reaching into a glove box or purse or under a seat.
"We already approach a car expecting a gun anyway," said St. Charles County sheriff's Detective Gary Pollard.
The St. Louis Police Department is so anxious over the new law that it is taking out advertisements in newspapers to urge people with guns to behave responsibly.
The law is written in such a way that a person is not required to tell an officer that he or she is armed.
"We hope people are thoughtful in their dealings with the police," Mokwa said.
The new law allows Missouri residents over age 21 to have in vehicles weapons that are otherwise legal for them to possess. Police say that rules out past felons but leaves open an array of others. A permit is required to purchase a handgun in Missouri, a city police official said, but not necessarily to possess a pistol that was a gift or inheritance.
To carry a concealed weapon outside a vehicle, the new law allows people 23 and older to apply to the local sheriff. It imposes conditions such as a criminal background check, safety training and payment of a fee. Officials are expected to start taking applications early next week.
Police say they fear the new law may give armed citizens a false sense of security.
"A firearm can make someone think they have some mythical power that protects them from harm," Mokwa said.
He also said the gun law may lead burglars to target cars parked outside places where guns are not allowed, such as large sports events. "People shouldn't open their trunk, drop their weapon inside and assume that nobody saw them do it," he said.
Paul Hampel and Susan Weich of the Post-Dispatch contributed to this report.
