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"Stand your ground" as portrayed by NY Times

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highdesert

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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/07/us/07shoot.html?_r=1&th=&emc=th&pagewanted=all


15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense

By ADAM LIPTAK
Published: August 7, 2006

In the last year, 15 states have enacted laws that expand the right of self-defense, allowing crime victims to use deadly force in situations that might formerly have subjected them to prosecution for murder.

Jason Rosenbloom was shot twice during a dispute over how many garbage bags Mr. Rosenbloom had put out. The shooter was not arrested.
Multimedia

Jacqueline Galas, a Florida prostitute, shot and killed a 72-year-old client. She was not charged.

Robert Smiley, a cabdriver, killed a passenger in an altercation. He was tried but the jury deadlocked.

Supporters call them “stand your ground” laws. Opponents call them “shoot first” laws.

Thanks to this sort of law, a prostitute in Port Richey, Fla., who killed her 72-year-old client with his own gun rather than flee was not charged last month. Similarly, the police in Clearwater, Fla., did not arrest a man who shot a neighbor in early June after a shouting match over putting out garbage, though the authorities say they are still reviewing the evidence.

The first of the new laws took effect in Florida in October, and cases under it are now reaching prosecutors and juries there. The other laws, mostly in Southern and Midwestern states, were enacted this year, according to the National Rifle Association, which has enthusiastically promoted them.

Florida does not keep comprehensive records on the impact of its new law, but prosecutors and defense lawyers there agree that fewer people who claim self-defense are being charged or convicted.

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the law’s words, “has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force.” The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

The central innovation in the Florida law, said Anthony J. Sebok, a professor at Brooklyn Law School, is not its elimination of the duty to retreat, which has been eroding nationally through judicial decisions, but in expanding the right to shoot intruders who pose no threat to the occupant’s safety.

“In effect,” Professor Sebok said, “the law allows citizens to kill other citizens in defense of property.”

This month, a jury in West Palm Beach, Fla., will hear the retrial of a murder case that illustrates the dividing line between the old law and the new one. In November 2004, before the new law was enacted, a cabdriver in West Palm Beach killed a drunken passenger in an altercation after dropping him off.

The first jury deadlocked 9-to-3 in favor of convicting the driver, Robert Lee Smiley Jr., said Henry Munnilal, the jury foreman.

“Mr. Smiley had a lot of chances to retreat and to avoid an escalation,” said Mr. Munnilal, a 62-year-old accountant. “He could have just gotten in his cab and left. The thing could have been avoided, and a man’s life would have been saved.”

Mr. Smiley tried to invoke the new law, which does away with the duty to retreat and would almost certainly have meant his acquittal, but an appeals court refused to apply it retroactively. He has appealed that issue to the Florida Supreme Court.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the N.R.A., said the Florida law had sent a needed message to law-abiding citizens.

“If they make a decision to save their lives in the split second they are being attacked, the law is on their side,” Mr. LaPierre said. “Good people make good decisions. That’s why they’re good people. If you’re going to empower someone, empower the crime victim.”

The N.R.A. said it would lobby for versions of the law in eight more states in 2007.

Sarah Brady, chairwoman of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said her group would fight those efforts. “In a way,” Ms. Brady said of the new laws, “it’s a license to kill.”

Many prosecutors oppose the laws, saying they are unnecessary at best and pernicious at worst. “They’re basically giving citizens more rights to use deadly force than we give police officers, and with less review,” said Paul A. Logli, president of the National District Attorneys Association.

But some legal experts doubt the laws will make a practical difference. “It’s inconceivable to me that one in a hundred Floridians could tell you how the law has changed,” said Gary Kleck, who teaches criminology at Florida State University.

Even before the new laws, Professor Kleck added, claims of self-defense were often accepted. “In the South,” he said, “they more or less give the benefit of the doubt to the alleged victim’s account.”

The case involving the Port Richey prostitute, Jacqueline Galas, turned on the new law, said Michael Halkitis, division director of the state attorney’s office in nearby New Port Richey. Ms. Galas, 23, said that a longtime client, Frank Labiento, 72, threatened to kill her and then kill himself last month. A suicide note he had left and other evidence supported her contention.

The law came into play when Ms. Galas grabbed Mr. Labiento’s gun and chose not to flee but to kill him. “Before that law,” Mr. Halkitis said, “before you could use deadly force, you had to retreat. Under the new law, you don’t have to do that.”

The decision not to charge Ms. Galas was straightforward, Mr. Halkitis said. “It would have been a more difficult situation with the old law,” he said, “much more difficult.”

In the case of the West Palm Beach cabdriver, Mr. Smiley, then 56, killed Jimmie Morningstar, 43. A sports bar had paid Mr. Smiley $10 to drive Mr. Morningstar home in the early morning of Nov. 6, 2004.

Mr. Morningstar was apparently reluctant to leave the cab once it reached its destination, and Mr. Smiley used a stun gun to hasten his exit. Once outside the cab, Mr. Morningstar flashed a knife, Mr. Smiley testified at his first trial, though one was never found. Mr. Smiley, who had gotten out of his cab, reacted by shooting at his passenger’s feet and then into his body, killing him.

Cliff Morningstar, the dead man’s uncle, said he was baffled by the killing. “He had a radio,” Mr. Morningstar said of Mr. Smiley. “He could have gotten in his car and left. He could have shot him in his knee.”

Carey Haughwout, the public defender who represents Mr. Smiley, conceded that no knife was found. “However,” Ms. Haughwout said, “there is evidence to support that the victim came at Smiley after Smiley fired two warning shots, and that he did have something in his hand.”

In April, a Florida appeals court indicated that the new law, had it applied to Mr. Smiley’s case, would have affected its outcome.

“Prior to the legislative enactment, a person was required to ‘retreat to the wall’ before using his or her right of self-defense by exercising deadly force,” Judge Martha C. Warner wrote. The new law, Judge Warner said, abolished that duty.

Jason M. Rosenbloom, the man shot by his neighbor in Clearwater, said his case illustrated the flaws in the Florida law. “Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder,” Mr. Rosenbloom said of his neighbor, Kenneth Allen.

“I was in T-shirt and shorts,” Mr. Rosenbloom said, recalling the day he knocked on Mr. Allen’s door. Mr. Allen, a retired Virginia police officer, had lodged a complaint with the local authorities, taking Mr. Rosenbloom to task for putting out eight bags of garbage, though local ordinances allow only six.

“I was no threat,” Mr. Rosenbloom said. “I had no weapon.”

The men exchanged heated words. “He closed the door and then opened the door,” Mr. Rosenbloom said of Mr. Allen. “He had a gun. I turned around to put my hands up. He didn’t even say a word, and he fired once into my stomach. I bent over, and he shot me in the chest.”

Mr. Allen, whose phone number is out of service and who could not be reached for comment, told The St. Petersburg Times that Mr. Rosenbloom had had his foot in the door and had tried to rush into the house, an assertion Mr. Rosenbloom denied.

“I have a right,” Mr. Allen said, “to keep my house safe.”
 
I am shocked and appalled. Shocked I say, that the NYT's would print such a one sided approach to citizens who are allowed to stand their ground and only give a few examples of the seedy sort... ;)
Why not a drug dealer or two? :rolleyes:

Guess we'll just have to tread lightly if we ever get to one of those kinda "license to kill" states, neh? :p
 
Jacqueline Galas, a Florida prostitute, shot and killed a 72-year-old client. She was not charged.

Wow. What a one-liner to grab your attention. You can almost imagine
some poor old lonely guy who just wanted some "conversation" getting
gunned down in a dark alley by a predator....oh, wait, there's more:

The case involving the Port Richey prostitute, Jacqueline Galas, turned on the new law, said Michael Halkitis, division director of the state attorney’s office in nearby New Port Richey. Ms. Galas, 23, said that a longtime client, Frank Labiento, 72, threatened to kill her and then kill himself last month. A suicide note he had left and other evidence supported her contention.

"longtime client"...."kill her and then himself"...."suicide note he had left".....

Oh, that's how it went down.
 
God forbid that the criminals would have to be afraid for their safety while commiting a crime! :banghead:

Duty to flee, they oughta call it what it is, duty to get shot/stabbed/clubbed in the back. When a man faces me the last thing I want to do is turn my back to run.
 
That does it

Yeah, I'm cancelling my NY Times subscription and asking Sarah Brady for my money back... :rolleyes:
 
Hi, guys, I'm writing from a state that judicially established a "shoot first" law back in 1865, which is before the NRA was founded by Haliburton and George Bush. Heck, that even predates Florida's law which was first to do anything as they have a lot of electoral votes. Why is not Indiana included in their morality play? The streets are wet with rain today, not blood.:rolleyes:

Why up here in unprogressive Yankeeland we even carry our guns in bars with no duty to retreat and yet no blood to our knees!:eek: Think of the children!:neener:
 
i think that reporter's on to something. if we just abandoned everything we love and have worked for to the criminals, there will be no need for them to resort to violence, ever, making the world a better place. and then we could avoid senseless tragedies like this one as the evil death-moving-devices would be out of the hands of law abiding citizens.
 
It's still a case by case basis. If my 10 year old nephew is beating me with a play inflatable pirate sword, and I gun him down, I don't get a free pass even in a "Stand your Ground" state.
 
These stand-your-ground laws are a bad idea. They make the NRA and gun owners look bad and they send the wrong message about use of force, and we don't need them.
 
Removal of the "Duty to retreat" is just and fair.

Now I will grant that in most states the "Duty to retreat" is very, very, weak. Those places usualy have a clause such as "only if there's a reasonable belief you can do so in safety" etc. Sometimes a simple clear statement such as, "I was afraid he'd get me if I turned my back to run.", or, "There was no way I could grab ALL four of my young cildren and run." will suffice and satisfy the caveats to the "Duty to retreat".

However, the fact that the "Duty to retreat" even exists gives sufficient latitude for anti-self defense DA's to bring charges, and ruin the life of the occasional person who was "in the right". Or it can create a hesitation to react in the mind of the victim. Weighing the odds of legal ruin against the intent and motivation of a criminal in the heat of the moment is something you can't fairly expect of anyone.

The other thing these laws recognize is that even if the court comes to the right decision about sefl-defense, the very act of being dragged into court is a very expensive and stressful undertaking to any person of average means. When "the system works" the "innocent" are still often penniless and destitute.
 
Liberal, if they abolish any duty to retreat then we need them very much.

If all they do is codify existing law, then there is no need for them.
Aside from the "duty to retreat" issue, some of them provide express protection from "Problem #2" in civil court.
 
Empirically - one might wait awhile and see. Remember how the AWB was going to save lives and CCW permits would cause blood in the street.

Betcha that (as Kleck indicates) there will be little change. Most defensive teachers will still teach to retreat if you can safely and don't shoot over property. This law will help in marginal cases and against over-zealous DAs.

However, we will have to wait and see. I suggest the hysterical DAs do the same.

BTW - Liberal Gun Owner - what guns to you own and how have you trained?
 
The NY Times had more front page articles on Abu Graib than they did on the Holocaust during Hitler's entire reign. Now it all makes perfect sense. Whacked out, but enlightening.
 
These stand-your-ground laws are a bad idea
Under English common law,the threatened party had a legal duty to retreat "to the wall" before fighting back. But from the nineteenth century on, such authorities as Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes rejected this doctrine as unsuited to both the American mind and the age of firearms. (taken from a review on Richard Maxwell Brown's book "No Duty To Retreat: Violence and Values in American History and Society")(a good read in parts... nice to have a copy)

Hard to outrun a bullet, eh LGN? To a liberal (whatever that really means today) it might not make sense to codify the right of self preservation no matter where one is at the moment he or she is faced with lethal force about to be used against them, nor to be daunted when faced with civil lawsuit afterward from the (hopefully) deceased (no change that to "negated") or wounded assailant's clan... but it appears that some lawmakers feel the need to do so. So they did.

What shall we do? Blame the NRA, of course, for making Us look stupid... can't have that now can we? Why did I not think of that? Far, far better to end up dead at the hands of criminal ilk, neh? Why, pretty soon, all of the law-abiding citizens would be dead and gone and only the criminals and liberals would be left to fester in their self made quagmire of their feel-good-so-do-it self centered little lives, the NRA and all it's members now (somehow) unarmed and either dead, dying or cowering in fear. Liberals and criminals alike all chanting "Run, run, run for your lives - Long, Live the NYT's." :rolleyes:

OK, a bit of hyperbole on my part, I admit. We'll just have to wait and see what the SCOTUS decides when any such case is appealled upward to their bench. Till then, I promise not to threaten to kill any Florida prostitutes, or refuse to exit a Florida cab, OK? Those people are cwazy (must be the humidity or somethin')... blood in the streets... for our children's sake...
 
Here in "no-carry" Wisconsin, it's rare for a prosecutor to go after a crime victim, even when the shooting is what all of us on THR would call questionable.

A Menomonee Falls store owner had a robber come into his store a few years ago. The robber fled when the owner pulled a gun. The store owner then chased him out into the street and shot him. The DA declined to press charges.

But that's in Waukesha county, which is conservative. Here in Milwaukee county, the outcome probably would have been different.
 
Yeah, our law was just icing on the cake but there were quite a few cases that would have turned out very differently and with a lot less media fanfare if the law had been in place when they occurred.
 
I love how they don't really go into the conditions of most of their examples of people defending themselves and also how they only use examples that support their own opinions. How about when a woman shoots a rapist?
 
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