Paul Calligaro
Member
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- Feb 22, 2008
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My CPL just arrived and I need advice. I have a S&W M&P 9C. Should I carry standad or +P 9mm ammo? Also, would you get night sights or laser grips?
Standard vs +p ammo for carry
- Thread starter Paul Calligaro
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Ridgerunner665
Member
+P ammo and both night sights and laser grips.
Lonestar49
Member
...
Laser grips without any doubts.. there will be no question if you're aiming on target (with both eyes open) with them, ever..
Just make sure that you are current/comfy with any +P 9mm as opposed to what your practice with at the range, as in 115gr FMJ, one can, as I do, shoot 124gr JHP's and the accuracy and recoil is identical, and the 124gr offers both a very high velocity with good weight for punch, with great spread once inside soft tissue..
To be clear, firing 200 rounds of 115gr FMJ and what you feel, how well you follow-up with quick-follow-up shots vs most +P is not the same, and you'll have to spend some bucks, to truly get the feel of most +P in JHP's to really know what to expect thru time-spent, rounds shot, of the stuff..
IMHO, using either 124gr or 134gr in JHP will do the job, and the first 2 shots are gonna be the most important in a fluid moment, based on fear..
Ls
Laser grips without any doubts.. there will be no question if you're aiming on target (with both eyes open) with them, ever..
Just make sure that you are current/comfy with any +P 9mm as opposed to what your practice with at the range, as in 115gr FMJ, one can, as I do, shoot 124gr JHP's and the accuracy and recoil is identical, and the 124gr offers both a very high velocity with good weight for punch, with great spread once inside soft tissue..
To be clear, firing 200 rounds of 115gr FMJ and what you feel, how well you follow-up with quick-follow-up shots vs most +P is not the same, and you'll have to spend some bucks, to truly get the feel of most +P in JHP's to really know what to expect thru time-spent, rounds shot, of the stuff..
IMHO, using either 124gr or 134gr in JHP will do the job, and the first 2 shots are gonna be the most important in a fluid moment, based on fear..
Ls
I'm not a big fan of +P. If you look at the ballistics charts you really don't gain much if anything. If you feel you need more velocity get a 357 SIG (9MM Magnum).
I'd prefer night sights over laser grips. While they have their place many people rely totally on the laser grip when they practice. It can also cause a problem if you are in a fight your laser grip gives up (dead battery or something else) and you'll hestitate trying to figure out what's wrong.
Night sights need no batteries and there's very little that can go wrong with them.
I'd prefer night sights over laser grips. While they have their place many people rely totally on the laser grip when they practice. It can also cause a problem if you are in a fight your laser grip gives up (dead battery or something else) and you'll hestitate trying to figure out what's wrong.
Night sights need no batteries and there's very little that can go wrong with them.
ccmdfd
Member
I like both night sights and laser grips together! Never know when one might come in more handy than the other.
+P works. Many LE agencies and such use it with apparently good results. That being said, many other agencies use standard pressure rounds with good results too.
+P works. Many LE agencies and such use it with apparently good results. That being said, many other agencies use standard pressure rounds with good results too.
sm
member
I prefer Standard ammo and gold beads for front sights.
Then again I "are" old....
Then again I "are" old....
I skipped the night sights on my XD and put Crimson Trace laser grips on instead. Night Sights are great for low light range/competition shooting. In a life and death situation, you’re not going to have time to aim like you do at the range. Nor will most people be able to focus on the front sight and let the rear sights and the guy trying to kill you go blurry. That’s just NOT natural. With a laser, you can look over the top of the barrel while naturally focusing on the threat. At the same time you will have some feedback (laser dot) that you are on target.
EDIT: Don't become dependent on the laser though, as this will not serve you well. At the range I spend most of my time using the sights with the laser off. I only shoot 1 or 2 mags with the laser just to check alignment. You will also want to practice point shooing...
+P or not depends on the barrel length. 4-5” barrels are fine with standard pressure rounds. On a short 3” barrel, +P becomes more important to help compensate for the pressure loss. You will also want to stay with the heaviest modern defensive bullet that will function in your pistol. A heaver bullet will be able to expand larger than a lighter 124grain can. I like Federals 147grain HST (P9HST2) and when they become available, I will be “upgrading” to Federals new 147grain HST +P (P9HST4) round.
Remember to stay with a modern design... Hydra-Shok (for example) is an outdated and very ineffective round (when compared to today’s offerings). I don't know why people still keep buying this stuff when there are much better choices available. :banghead:
The problem that plagues the Hydra-Shok (and other outdated designs like Silver Tip and Black Talon) is that they are plugged easily (from clothing), preventing proper expansion. Without proper expansion, the Hydra-Shok becomes little more than expensive FMJ rounds.
Because of this, Federal went back to the drawing board and came up with the HST line, which does not suffer from these problems and has excellent expansion and penetration capabilities.
Will Hydra-Shoks still kill someone today? Yes... So will regular FMJ rounds or even a little .22. What we are talking about is; what’s most effective in stopping a threat as quickly as possible, and thus increasing your chances of surviving a bad situation. Remember the 1986 FBI Miami shootout where the BG took multiple rounds of 9mm (Silver Tips), and he was still able to fight back killing agents. It has been proven that the lack of proper expansion and penetration can cost you your life.
EDIT: Don't become dependent on the laser though, as this will not serve you well. At the range I spend most of my time using the sights with the laser off. I only shoot 1 or 2 mags with the laser just to check alignment. You will also want to practice point shooing...
+P or not depends on the barrel length. 4-5” barrels are fine with standard pressure rounds. On a short 3” barrel, +P becomes more important to help compensate for the pressure loss. You will also want to stay with the heaviest modern defensive bullet that will function in your pistol. A heaver bullet will be able to expand larger than a lighter 124grain can. I like Federals 147grain HST (P9HST2) and when they become available, I will be “upgrading” to Federals new 147grain HST +P (P9HST4) round.
Remember to stay with a modern design... Hydra-Shok (for example) is an outdated and very ineffective round (when compared to today’s offerings). I don't know why people still keep buying this stuff when there are much better choices available. :banghead:
The problem that plagues the Hydra-Shok (and other outdated designs like Silver Tip and Black Talon) is that they are plugged easily (from clothing), preventing proper expansion. Without proper expansion, the Hydra-Shok becomes little more than expensive FMJ rounds.
Because of this, Federal went back to the drawing board and came up with the HST line, which does not suffer from these problems and has excellent expansion and penetration capabilities.
Will Hydra-Shoks still kill someone today? Yes... So will regular FMJ rounds or even a little .22. What we are talking about is; what’s most effective in stopping a threat as quickly as possible, and thus increasing your chances of surviving a bad situation. Remember the 1986 FBI Miami shootout where the BG took multiple rounds of 9mm (Silver Tips), and he was still able to fight back killing agents. It has been proven that the lack of proper expansion and penetration can cost you your life.
Nor will most people be able to focus on the front sight and let the rear sights and the guy trying to kill you go blurry.
A flash sight picture does not take that long if the target is close.
On a short 3” barrel, +P becomes more important to help compensate for the pressure loss.
The gain from +P in a short barrel is even less than a than a longer barrel only about 50-70 fps in those I've chronographed. The best I've seen gained 150 fps in a long barrel.
Remember the 1986 FBI Miami shootout where the BG took multiple rounds of 9mm (Silver Tips), and he was still able to fight back killing agents.
The Silvertip hit the bad guy went through his arm entered his chest went through a lung and took out part of his brachial artery. The bullet had expanded as it was designed to do and stopped just short of his heart. The BG would have died from this wound alone. Would it have been different if it had hit his heart? Maybe, maybe not. I've seen a bank video where an off duty LEO shot the BG, the bullet went through his heart, the BG and LEO struggled with the gun for about 20-30 seconds, the BG ran out of the bank for about 100 yds and dropped dead in the parking lot.
A flash sight picture does not take that long if the target is close.
On a short 3” barrel, +P becomes more important to help compensate for the pressure loss.
The gain from +P in a short barrel is even less than a than a longer barrel only about 50-70 fps in those I've chronographed. The best I've seen gained 150 fps in a long barrel.
Remember the 1986 FBI Miami shootout where the BG took multiple rounds of 9mm (Silver Tips), and he was still able to fight back killing agents.
The Silvertip hit the bad guy went through his arm entered his chest went through a lung and took out part of his brachial artery. The bullet had expanded as it was designed to do and stopped just short of his heart. The BG would have died from this wound alone. Would it have been different if it had hit his heart? Maybe, maybe not. I've seen a bank video where an off duty LEO shot the BG, the bullet went through his heart, the BG and LEO struggled with the gun for about 20-30 seconds, the BG ran out of the bank for about 100 yds and dropped dead in the parking lot.
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No +P in M&P9c
I tried +P Magtech ammo in my M&P9c and it was a bad idea. The load caused such high slide speed that I thought it might damage the gun. I could feel and hear the slide slamming back into the frame
. I decided to go with Georgia Arms (www.georgia-arms.com) Gold Dots. If 13 Gold Dots don't get me out of trouble, then a +P load wouldn't have either!
I tried +P Magtech ammo in my M&P9c and it was a bad idea. The load caused such high slide speed that I thought it might damage the gun. I could feel and hear the slide slamming back into the frame
. I decided to go with Georgia Arms (www.georgia-arms.com) Gold Dots. If 13 Gold Dots don't get me out of trouble, then a +P load wouldn't have either!MCgunner
Member
Laser grips may help, but don't forget how to do instinctive point shooting or aimed fire with the sights. Don't use the laser as a crutch, only a low light aid. Electronics can fail, after all.
+P is up to you and your ability to use it. I shoot +P in .38 and 9mm, feel it's not that big a deal in .45ACP. Even if you are a big hole guy, more energy can insure better bullet expansion, thus bigger hole. But, you have to be able to handle it. +P even in my light weight .38 or 9 is easy for me to handle. In .45, I can handle it, but it significanly slows my follow up shot more than it does in the other calibers and I don't feel with 400 ft lbs already that it's really necessary to have any more considering the effects the stuff has on muzzle flip in that caliber for me.
It's something you'll have to measure and figure out for yourself and your shooting abilities. Starting out, I'd go mild and learn to use the +P stuff later.
+P is up to you and your ability to use it. I shoot +P in .38 and 9mm, feel it's not that big a deal in .45ACP. Even if you are a big hole guy, more energy can insure better bullet expansion, thus bigger hole. But, you have to be able to handle it. +P even in my light weight .38 or 9 is easy for me to handle. In .45, I can handle it, but it significanly slows my follow up shot more than it does in the other calibers and I don't feel with 400 ft lbs already that it's really necessary to have any more considering the effects the stuff has on muzzle flip in that caliber for me.
It's something you'll have to measure and figure out for yourself and your shooting abilities. Starting out, I'd go mild and learn to use the +P stuff later.
weregunner
Member
http;//www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=5941.0
There are good reasons for +P ammo and standard pressure ammo as well.
+P seems to work better out full size or slightly smaller pistols than in the shorty ones.
Reasoning is in the link.
Arguments can be made for both types of ammo.
There are good reasons for +P ammo and standard pressure ammo as well.
+P seems to work better out full size or slightly smaller pistols than in the shorty ones.
Reasoning is in the link.
Arguments can be made for both types of ammo.
Paul Calligaro
Member
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2008
- Messages
- 23
Thank you all for your help. I like the idea of both night sights and laser grips. You can't put a price on personal safty. I shoot NTO ammo at the range and I can't tell the differance with it and +P so I think I'll go with +P. I have been shooting for yearsd but am new to carry. You guys are great for your help.
I think it makes a difference ..100fpe or so energy increase and wound profiles in gelatin look closer to .357ish than that of standard pressure loads ..if that means anything 
The question is does the added recoil bother you,negatively affect your shooting etc..? ..also some +p ammo recoils less than others. ..shot placement is still key.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/9mm Luger.html
The question is does the added recoil bother you,negatively affect your shooting etc..? ..also some +p ammo recoils less than others. ..shot placement is still key.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/9mm Luger.html
I don't notice a huge difference in 9MM standard and +P or +P+ ammunition. Although, to be honest, most of the +P+ I've fired has been Federal, so who knows, Federal seems to light-load their over-pressured rounds. I'd go +P or +P+ in 9MM, depending on your pistol's capabilities. I'm not so sure about other calibers, I do notice a difference in shooting .38 standard and +P ammunition though.
Island Beretta
Member
it all a matter of more energy.. if that's what you want then +p.. in the end it still comes back to shot placement,though the +p will give you more punch for the bang..
Halo
Member
As far as +P goes, I like it in 9mm if for no reason other than the fact that it is closer to the 9mm's nominal loading. What we consider "higher pressure", the Europeans consider very normal. 9mm ammo loaded to CIP standards would probably be marked +P under SAAMI standards.
DawgFvr
Member
I believe the 115 grain Corbon DPX +P is the best/proven 9mm ammo for carry...no matter what size barrel you have. Now...can your platform take it? That is another matter. I would say all the newer pistols can.
Shot placement, of course, is of primary concern but the we should take advantage of the technology that has reinvented the 9mm round into a much better defensive round for a side arm. Oh...you can keep your lasers IMHO. I've tried that newer technology on my 642...and for a myriad of reasons that I wont go into here, I've shelved that idea.
Shot placement, of course, is of primary concern but the we should take advantage of the technology that has reinvented the 9mm round into a much better defensive round for a side arm. Oh...you can keep your lasers IMHO. I've tried that newer technology on my 642...and for a myriad of reasons that I wont go into here, I've shelved that idea.
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