starting to look into a 9mm PCC. suggestions, advice, and oppinions wanted.

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Detritus

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For a few different reasons I've ben gun looking into what options are out there in the way of 9mm carbines. and frankly right now I'm a touch overwhelmed by the options that have become available since the last time I looked in this direction. So I would welcome some advice, further info, and first hand experiences.

I'll start off with "what got me here" and the current list of wants, needs, and considerations.
  • Uses: general plinking, possible occasional use in various matches (Steel challenge, the Carbine match put on by a local club a few times a year, etc), and as a home defense weapon to replace the shotgun that's been in this role for the past 6 years. This is the main reason for the carbine since my wife can no longer adequately utilize the shotgun due to issues with her right shoulder (it's no longer a case of If but when she has replacement surgery, she's waiting as long as possible to reduce the chance of having to have it done a 2nd time)
  • Per wife's wishes/desires gun is preferred to be of an AR-like configuration, ie have AR ergonomics and control setup. if not for this stipulation, this thread wouldn't exist and i'd be making plans to buy a Ruger PC carbine.
  • Must take common easily available mags, pretty sure this will come down to "Takes glock mags". but I'm open to suggestions.
  • Preferred price range is under $700, but a really good argument for why might cause that to rise some. but not very likely based on what I've been looking at.
  • I am willing to buy a separate upper and lower, spaced out a little to save a little or to get a better end product.

So far the ones that have gotten my interest and at least seem to fill the requirements above have been (in no particular order). the Freedom Ordnance FX-9, JRC just Right Carbine, and PSA AR-9. I have not yet had an opportunity (at least recently) to handle any of these, nor more importantly get any of the three into the wife's hands for feedback. And considering that the main reason for getting this gun will be for her to have and use, her feedback etc is of a higher importance than mine.

anyway that's all I can think of to ask or say on this for now. as always thank you in advance for any info, personal experience, or advice you care to share.
 
I did a lot of reading and a lot of research before I decided to buy a TNW take down carbine... then the Ruger PC9 came out and I bought the Ruger instead. JR carbine was my second
choice (3rd choice after PC9 was announced).
 
initially the Highpoint carbines were in contention, based on price-point and knowing from three and a half years of gun sales experience that they're unusually reliable for gun that cheap. But they fail one of the more important requirements (read one coming from the intended main user). They do not possess an AR-like control layout and ergonomics. The Kel-Tec carbines fall into the same bucket. Going away from that requirement would take one heck of a strong argument. and honestly, even if an argument was able to move my wife toward a non-AR style gun, both the 995TS and the Sub2000 would have to somehow beat out the Ruger PC Carbine.

I did a lot of reading and a lot of research before I decided to buy a TNW take down carbine... then the Ruger PC9 came out and I bought the Ruger instead. JR carbine was my second
choice (3rd choice after PC9 was announced).

Yeah, in hindsight what I probably should have done, if I had wanted to just get things over with is.
  1. not opened my dang mouth about the existence of "AR based/like" 9mm carbines
  2. put a PC carbine in the wife's hands to see how it felt to her
  3. make it known to her that I felt that the PC was the best option on the market
But no, i'm a thoughtful and truthful husband, that chooses not to manipulate or conceal portions of information regarding our firearms purchases (This is why she and no I own the better shooting 1911. I didn't swap my grips and MSH onto her gun and pull a switcheroo when hers demonstrated much better grouping.). So I asked her opinion, IE did she have a preference or really care even if the 9mm carbine we were discussing was of a "traditional" Vs "AR" layout. the resounding answer was "AR", and now any attempt to get her to look at the other style(s) available meets resistance. and I'm not opinionated enough on the issue to really care.

Out of curiosity what drew you toward the TNW??
 
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There are a ton of them out there. If you go the ar route, some don't have last round bolt hold open feature. my psa ar doesn't have it.

I also have a TNW pistol in 45 acp that is suprisingly accurate.

The ruger is cool, but the one i shot seemed sort of big and heavy compared to the ar.
 
If you like ARs, build a 9mm AR ... or look at the Just Right Carbine. I bought a JRC takedown six months before Ruger introduced their new PC Carbine. The JRC was a fine gun, but I thought it felt a bit nose-heavy. Worked great with Glock magazines.

I had one of the original Ruger PC4s years ago; it was a great gun, but I didn't like that it took Ruger semi-auto magazines and I didn't/don't care for Ruger semi-autos. Had the original accepted Glock magazines, I'd still have it.

I am not a fan of the AR platform or form factor, so when the new Ruger PC Carbine became available, I sold the JRC and bought the Ruger. Stuck the Glock magazine well adapter into it and have been very happy with it.
 
Detritus, I was going to build or buy a 9mm AR based carbine. I did a lot of research and talked to a lot of people. At first it was a bit overwhelming until I talked with the guys at my old favorite gun store. Once I started asking pointed questions about brands and components and kits I started hearing about various reliability issues with all the various options (I am not going to list them here). It became obvious that many of the options could be made very reliable but it would take work, experimentation, modifications, etc.

I do not fool with guns I have to fiddle with to make reliable so I gave up on the project. Reliability far outweighs the “tacti-cool” factor for me.

A while back I bought a Ruger PC Carbine and it is reliable, accurate and fun. It takes my Glock mags (another reliable gun) and I have had zero issues with it. If you and your wife have the opportunity to shoot one I would give it a try.
 
I've owned a dedicated 9mm AR15 from RRA since 2003. It runs well, though I have long promised myself a trigger job, as the factory trigger requires a 10-12 lb. yank. (I'll probably start with some springs from JP.)

Only other downside is that the carbine came without a magwell, which was about an extra hundred bucks or so at the time. I initially bought a drop-in magwell from Knight's, but that one didn't hold the bolt open at last shot. I replaced it with one (whose brand I've forgotten) that inserts from the bottom and is fixed with a wedge and allen key. That one works fine, though it did require some fiddling to properly adjust the dwell.

The carbine is a bit ammo sensitive (no CCI Blazer aluminum!), but handles service grade 115 grainers just fine. It also behaves nicely with a bucket of +P+ Hirtenberger surplus ammo I acquired some years ago. (If anyone thinks this stuff is a bad idea, please do let me know, though!)

All that said, if I had to do it all over again, and knowing what I know, I think I'd opt for a dedicated carbine. It just seems simpler all around to deal with a purpose built firearm. JMHO, of course.
 
If you like ARs, build a 9mm AR ... or look at the Just Right Carbine. I bought a JRC takedown six months before Ruger introduced their new PC Carbine. The JRC was a fine gun, but I thought it felt a bit nose-heavy. Worked great with Glock magazines.

I had one of the original Ruger PC4s years ago; it was a great gun, but I didn't like that it took Ruger semi-auto magazines and I didn't/don't care for Ruger semi-autos. Had the original accepted Glock magazines, I'd still have it.

I am not a fan of the AR platform or form factor, so when the new Ruger PC Carbine became available, I sold the JRC and bought the Ruger. Stuck the Glock magazine well adapter into it and have been very happy with it.

We still may go with the Ruger, at this point I wanted to explore the options so that a decision can be made with as much info as possible. Like I said, if I were the only user it would take a strong argument to steer me away from the Ruger. The only thing that disappoints me, and something I didn't realize until I started looking into the options. is that the current crop of Ruger pistols and therefore the PC Carbine use a different style of magazine (different mag catch cut in the mag body) than the P-series guns. which means that if I were inclined to avoid Glock mags I'd have to buy a whole new set of Ruger mags, instead of being able to raid the small stash of P-series mags my father has. :D because the newest Ruger handgun anyone in the family has is a first gen P95.

"the 995TS and the Sub2000 would have to somehow beat out the Ruger PC9"

It already has.

https://www.gun-tests.com/issues/14...elf-Defense-Showdown-4989-1.html#.W7oSb59lA0M
will go back and edit the earlier post for clarity and to reflect my intent.
Meant to say they'd have to Beat out the current production "PC Carbine" with regard to myself and my wife liking how they handle, feel, etc. Not that they would have to have better reviews than a gun that has been out of production for over a decade, and even if it was still around would be a no-go due to weight, and other issues.
That article probably says the same things about the original PC9 as I would say about it, overweight, used the "wrong" magazines for most users, the majority had really crappy notch and post sights instead of a peep rear, and, though I will admit this was an easy mistake for Ruger to make at the time since red dots were still in early days, instead of a weaver/picatinny style optics mounting instead had the proprietary Ruger integral bases. By the 2002 date on the article that article the PC9/40 was a failed attempt to sell matched sets of Ruger P-series pistols and "Patrol Carbines" to police departments on the basis of sharing magazines. and if I remember correctly Ruger had realized it was going nowhere and actually stopped producing the major parts prior to 2002, and all of the guns "Made" around that time up till official discontinuance were assembled out of existing parts stockpile.

I would like to see that updated with the currently built Ruger PCC which has reports of a very good trigger and has different sights compared to the old PC9.
so would I. I imagine that the PC Carbine beats out both of them in at least a few areas. it certainly beats both on a number of points in my book. real big one for me is the Ruger is built as what I view as a "carbine" (rifle ergonomics, mag forward, action ahead of dominant hand), while the other two are more mutant overgrown pistols, almost product improved Mech-tech carbine conversions. while I understand the logic some folks use for why they feel that a pistol style in-the-grip magwell is ok or even preferable on a pistol caliber rifle, I don't find it to work that way for me.
 
Out of curiosity what drew you toward the TNW??

TNW had a take down version before JR carbine came out with their take down version. And the multicaliber capability of the TNW also weighed heavily in it's favor. I was also able to locate and handle a TNW at a gun show... I have never found a JR to even just handle and get a feel for it.

I really like the quarter turn barrel mount of the Ruger PC9... it is very quick and it has an adjustment ring to take out any slack that might develop over time. The JR and TNW have screw on barrels that are a fair bit slower to assemble. To be fair the magazine release on the PC9 is kind of hard to locate by feel and takes a bit of effort to depress. This is due to the interchangable magazine adapters that allows you to go from Ruger mags to Glock mags. It is worth the trade off in my opinion though.

I was also a little dissapointed in the cycling of the PC9... it is kind of clunky. I have since shot other blow back carbines and they are the same way. I was kind of expecting a smoother operation like my M1 carbine... but the M1 carbine uses a gas operating system instead of blow back operation and gas systems are just a lot smoother... I guess.

My main purpose for a PC carbine is a plinker. It is nice to have the extra umph over a .22lr and I can reload 9mm for cheaper than quality .22mag ammunition. I prefer a hand gun for home defence.. it just seems a lot more manuverable to me. But a 9mm carbine seems like it would be perfect for longer range home defence... like a coyote or cougar out in the field.

I went with the Glock mags, they are just too good of quality at too decent of a price... and who knows, maybe some day some one will make a hand gun that takes Glock mags that I might actually want to buy!

P.S. I think it is great you are getting your wife what SHE wants instead of what YOU feel is best for her! Kudo's! You might try to get your wife to try a M1 carbine... they pretty much sell themselves when shooting one... ammo is a lot more expensive than 9mm though... even if you reload.
 
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TNW had a take down version before JR carbine came out with their take down version. And the multicaliber capability of the TNW also weighed heavily in it's favor. I was also able to locate and handle a TNW at a gun show... I have never found a JR to even just handle and get a feel for it.
ok, cool. not at all worried or much interested in multiple calibers, very much doubt I'd ever use that capability. since I have no interest in .40S&W at all, and little interest in .45 in anything but a 1911.
I actually have handled a JR carbine, but to be fair that's because I was working for Gander Mountain at the time and it's been approaching 3 years, and I wasn't really interested in the thing back then. 9mm carbine wasn't anywhere on my wants and needs list back then so "yeah this feels like a kinda goofy AR.." was about as far as my personal impressions got (or at least what I remember if them). still looking for another (purely to have the wife handle it) but so far Gander Mtn is the only place I've ever seen them in person, and since they downsized their presence so suddenly and drastically...

To be fair the magazine release on the PC9 is kind of hard to locate by feel and takes a bit of effort to depress. This is due to the interchangable magazine adapters that allows you to go from Ruger mags to Glock mags. It is worth the trade off in my opinion though.
I'll keep that in mind and be sure to have Trish try it out sometime to make sure it's not an issue for her.

I was also a little disappointed in the cycling of the PC9... it is kind of clunky. I have since shot other blow back carbines and they are the same way. I was kind of expecting a smoother operation like my M1 carbine... but the M1 carbine uses a gas operating system instead of blow back operation and gas systems are just a lot smoother... I guess
As long as it handles better than the old PC9/40 carbines, next door neighbor bought a PC-9 not too long after they came out in the 90s and I got to shoot it a few times, the reciprocating weight in the forend made it kinda funky feeling to shoot.

.My main purpose for a PC carbine is a plinker. It is nice to have the extra umph over a .22lr and I can reload 9mm for cheaper than quality .22mag ammunition. I prefer a hand gun for home defence.. it just seems a lot more manuverable to me. But a 9mm carbine seems like it would be perfect for longer range home defence... like a coyote or cougar out in the field.
yeah like I said in the first post, due to a right shoulder that has gone south Trish can no longer handle the recoil of shotgun that has served as our home defense gun for the past 6 years. Hell at 6-foot tall, too many pounds, healthy shoulders, and not at all recoil sensitive I don't like shooting the thing. I think the stock configuration causes it to deliver a beating on both ends.
a lot of consideration went into the options available to us, Trish is borderline night blind so the idea of her trying to use pistol sights at night inside the house was kind of a non starter. Then, even though we live in an unincorporated area just about surrounded by farmland, we have what one might term "Immediate next door neighbors". and as it turns out the most likely place for us to be "defending from" would have us firing in a direction that any thing not backstopped by the brick walls of the house heads toward the neighbor's kitchen, so most rifle caliber options (like a standard AR) went out the window in light of that. so a PCC kind of seemed the best balance.

P.S. I think it is great you are getting your wife what SHE wants instead of what YOU feel is best for her! Kudo's! You might try to get your wife to try a M1 carbine... they pretty much sell themselves when shooting one... ammo is a lot more expensive than 9mm though... even if you reload.
Yeah.... I've bought exactly one gun for her without thorough consultation, and out of all the guns she's ever owned it's the only one she ever really hated. so I don't do that no more.
As for her and an M1 Carbine, I tried that once, but since she has both an A1 style AR and a Garand, the carbine never really appealed to her.
 
I actually have handled a JR carbine, but to be fair that's because I was working for Gander Mountain at the time and it's been approaching 3 years, and I wasn't really interested in the thing back then.
If I had the opportunity to actually handle a JR it could might move above the NW Carbine.

As long as it handles better than the old PC9/40 carbines, next door neighbor bought a PC-9 not too long after they came out in the 90s and I got to shoot it a few times, the reciprocating weight in the forend made it kinda funky feeling to shoot.
The new PC9 has the weight in the back of the receiver (you probably already know this). It is fun to shoot, it just isn't as smooth as my other semi-auto rifles.

yeah like I said in the first post, due to a right shoulder that has gone south Trish can no longer handle the recoil of shotgun that has served as our home defense gun for the past 6 years. Hell at 6-foot tall, too many pounds, healthy shoulders, and not at all recoil sensitive I don't like shooting the thing.
I have never really cared for 12 gauges either. A PCC will be like being punched by a new born baby in comparison.

Trish is borderline night blind so the idea of her trying to use pistol sights at night inside the house was kind of a non starter. Then, even though we live in an unincorporated area just about surrounded by farmland, we have what one might term "Immediate next door neighbors". and as it turns out the most likely place for us to be "defending from" would have us firing in a direction that any thing not backstopped by the brick walls of the house heads toward the neighbor's kitchen, so most rifle caliber options (like a standard AR) went out the window in light of that. so a PCC kind of seemed the best balance.
I keep these in my night stand gun.
arx.jpg
My neighbors are a fair distance from me but I do have a child. With these I am less afraid about not taking a shot because I am worried about them going through the sheet rock and floor.

I have never tried them through the Ruger PC9... but the PC9 will shoot ANYTHING!!! 30 years ago I loaded up my first batch of 9mm. I started at the books "Starting load" and they would not cycle ANY 9mm I have tried them through in the past 30 years. My PC9 fired off every single one of those anemic loads! Happy to finally dispose of those old 9mm cartridges!

The ARX have worked flawlessly in my Beretta 92, Kahr CM9, Remington R51 (which is very picky) and even my DB9.

Yeah.... I've bought exactly one gun for her without thorough consultation, and out of all the guns she's ever owned it's the only one she ever really hated. so I don't do that no more.
As for her and an M1 Carbine, I tried that once, but since she has both an A1 style AR and a Garand, the carbine never really appealed to her.

So you learn from your mistakes? That is kind of un-manly of you isn't it? LOL!
To really appreciate a M1 carbine you kind of need to shoot one. It is a very smooth shooter! But like I said.. ammo is expensive... even when reloading your own (Well expensive compared to 9mm at least).
 
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I own a Marlin Camp 9, a Ruger PCC and an AR that takes Glock mags. They are listed in descending order of preference, but since the Marlin is discontinued I tend not to shoot it nearly as much as I would like.
 
If you need or want quick-takedown, hard to imagine anything better than the Ruger PC9 - pretty trick rig, and it can take an actual quality mag (Ruger).

But otherwise, AR15 is where it's at, IMO. So much customization possible with AR15 - grips, handguards, triggers, buttstocks, etc. But I dunno if it will make your price range.
 
There has been some confusion in this thread regarding the discontinued Ruger PC9 and the recently released Ruger PCC 9 mm carbine.

I have both the Hi-Point TS995 and the Ruger PCC. I will be looking to sell the Hi-Point.

The Hi-Point is a fun plinker but I would consider the Ruger PCC to be vastly preferable especially if use in a self-defense role is considered.

The Hi-Point has some less than desirable features for a self-defense weapon, IMO. The biggest limitation of the TS995 by far are the single stack magazines. The only non-Hi-Point magazine that will not void the warranty and reasonably expected to be reliable are the 20 round Red Ball magazines. But these being single stack stick way out of the bottom of the receiver. They would make it very difficult to shoot from a low prone position. Otherwise, you are stuck with 10 round Hi-Point magazines which I have found to be inconsistent in quality of manufacture and function. There is also a little shelf or lip inside the magazine well of the TS995 that the magazines will hang up on if they are not inserted perfectly plumb and square with the magwell which could be catastrophic if a rapid magazine change is called for.

Other problems with the Hi-Point are a crudely designed charging handle that is always wanting to unscrew itself, a quite mediocre trigger, and a poorly placed and crudely designed safety lever. The Hi-Point does have last round bolt lock on empty magazines but if you need to manually lock the bolt back, you need to push a knurled collar on the charging handle into a circular cut out on the left side of the dust cover. I find the charging handle rather awkward to release from this lock and the bolt will fail to chamber a round if it is not pulled back to the extreme limit of its travel. The safety lever is a thin piece of stamped metal which is hard to find without looking, and I (with larger than average hands for an adult male) find it impossible to disengage without shifting my firing hand grip on the pistol grip. The magazine release button is well-placed, however, and works well. The charging handle of the TS995 is not reversible from left to right side like it is on the Ruger PCC.

Other aspects of the TS995 which are not as critical, but less desirable than those of the Ruger PCC are sling mounts that only accept a 1" wide sling and can only be mounted on the right side of the carbine, and an accessory rail that is a piece of polymer screwed onto the top of the dust cover, rather than a rail milled on the top of the receiver like the Ruger. The Hi-Point iron sights are crude but work reasonably well, but the protective side wings of the rear sight extend much farther forward than they need to and can interfere with placement of some larger RDS sights in front of the iron sights.

The recoil characteristics of the Ruger PCC are pretty comparable to those of the TS995 IMO. Both have very heavy bolts with a blow-back action. I do not mind the recoil of either in the least, but I suppose some might. The take-down feature of the PCC makes it very easy to clean the barrel and chamber. In comparison, take-down of the TS995 is rather laborious. Take-down has not seemed to affect zero on my PCC so far. The PCC accepts Glock magazines which is an enormous plus. The trigger, while far from match quality, is reasonable and better than that of the TS995. I am quite sure that there will be aftermarket trigger options appearing for the PCC soon, and Brimstone Gunsmithing has told me they hope to start offering trigger work on the PCC trigger group by the end of the year. I have had no failures to function with the PCC thus far with any commercial 9 mm FMJ ammunition I have tried. I have had multiple failures to feed with the TS995 which I believe to be primarily magazine-related. The PCC also comes with several butt stock spacers that allow for very easy adjustment of length of pull. The PCC uses the same cross bolt safety button as the Ruger 10/22 which I find intuitive and easy to disengage, although a left-handed shooter might not like it as much.

The PCC is not perfect, by any means. The front sight is a non-adjustable blade. The rear sight, while adjustable for windage and elevation, do not provide for consistently reproducible click adjustment. You basically loosen a small Allen screw, slide the sight left or right, or forward or back on the ramp, and tighten the screw. The magazine release button is situated on the left side of the receiver at the magwell. This makes it difficult to do a very rapid magazine change by dropping the empty while simultaneously reaching for a loaded magazine. There is a very short Picatinny rail segment molded into the front of the polymer handguard at the 6 o'clock position, but it is designed in such a way that many rail mounted accessories will be too long to fit on it. The sling swivel studs are molded into the handguard and stock, however, and accept any standard quick attach/detach sling swivels. There are no accessory slots on the handguard of the Ruger PCC apart from the short Picatinny rail segment.

In comparison to the AR platform, I find releasing the open bolt on the PCC to be easier and faster. Unlike the Ruger 10/22, the bolt can be released by pulling back on the charging handle and letting go. This function can also be switched to the left side if desired. A definite drawback of the PCC to the AR platform is lack of accessory mounting locations on the fore-end if this is an issue for you. But aftermarket options, while pricey, are starting to emerge like the Catalyst Arms hardpoint accessory mounting system already cited, and this aluminum M-LOK compatible handguard by Parker Mountain Machine:

http://www.parkermountainmachine.com/store/p395/PMM_Ruger_PC_Carbine_MLOK_RAIL_BATCH_2_PRE-ORDER!!!!!!_ETA_11/24/18.html

I would be perfectly happy to use the Ruger PCC 9mm carbine with a red dot sight mounted for home self-defense, especially if you already own a Ruger or Glock pistol that will accept the same magazines. And with the Glock magazine adapter you have the option of a 31 round magazine capacity. The accuracy of the PCC seems a bit better than that of the TS995 in my hands. This Sunday I had the opportunity to shoot at some steel at 100 yards with the PCC using Blazer Brass 115 grain FMJ. I had a fixed magnification 3X Nikon scope mounted that I had zeroed at 45 yards, and I was using a pure guess for a hold-over based on a ballistic calculator and getting hits consistently on a 6" diameter plate.

I would encourage you to find someone with a Ruger PCC that would allow your wife to try it before settling on an AR type PCC. I bought mine recently from KY Gun Co. for just under $450, bought a SIG Romeo 5 RDS on-sale for $120, shipping included for both. That and four Glock 17 magazines on-sale from the Bone Frog Gun Club for $16 each and I am still under $650.
 
well as an update, Thursday I finally got the both of us down to the nearest shop with a large inventory, that was likely to have an actual selection of PCCs we're interested in, instead of the maybe a Ruger and a bunch of stuff that are non-starters for us.
She got to handle the Ruger and a Freedom Ordnance FX-9, it's not even a question anymore. the Ruger's off the table. unless a deal pops up on a similar, and respected design pops up, we're likely looking at an FX-9 sometime early in the new year.
 
I bought my PC9 and love it for the Glock-mag compatibility. It's simple to use, easy to take down and clean, has minimal recoil and shoots a round that's effective for home defense yet isn't expensive.

My buddy just called me and said he, too just bought a PC9 for all the same reasons I like it. I'll be giving him the Ruger mag that came with mine since I have mine set up for Glocks.

Stay safe!
 
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