Steel case ammo and wear

[Mr_Flintstone]

It stands to reason that steel on steel would cause more wear than brass on steel. Still, how much more wear does it cause?

Does anyone have stats on how much more quickly a semi-automatic pistol fed a steady diet of something like Tula steel-case will wear out than one fed brass or aluminum?

 

[Tirod]

AR15'S have had that done and it is measured in the tens of thousands of rounds. It does not affect the bore at all, just the chamber and extractor.

Stainless guns using the same alloy receiver and frame have had issues with galling, but a steel barrel and the steel alloy in the case are usually different enough it's not a significant issue. Given some lubricate their rounds or they come that way, it relieves quite a bit of the friction. Goes along with how finely finished the chamber walls are, too.

I'm breaking in a pocket pistol on steel cased, new out of the box no cleaning. So far so good. Since it won't be a high round count gun anyway, what I shoot out of it is moot. Performance with carry ammo will be all that counts.

 

[Shaq]

Of course steel cases will accelerate wear - especially on the ejector & extractor. I wouldn't be concerned on a range gun but I would be concerned with a defensive gun because the parts can chip during an emergency & cause a malfunction. I don't think it's worth the few dollars' price difference.

Whenever this issue comes up, it reminds me of discussions of cheap, poor-quality firearms (Taurus, Hi Point, Bryco, Charter Arms). Some people who own them are quick to speak of how good they are. They are willing to overlook malfunctions & parts breakage because they're so excited about the cheap price & want to feel smart about getting something for nothing.

 

[FL-NC]

I use thousands of rounds of that stuff through training guns (gen 2 Glock 17 and a beater AR). They all still work. The HK USP I had didn't like that stuff at all.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

So running 200-300 rounds through a pistol over the period of a few years probably won't hurt it that much?

In the past (during the shortages) I've run some steel through my guns that I couldn't find other ammo for. All of them probably have 300 rounds or less of the steel through them.

 

[RX-79G]

There isn't a way to quantify the wear, because there are other factors, like the design of the gun and the pressure of the loaded ammo.

Here's an exhaustive brass vs. steel AR test:

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

Keep in mind that an AR's extractor and ejector are radically different than a pistol's.


Personally, I would use a box of steel case ammo if nothing else was available, but I'd never buy a case of it. And I would not expect it to be reliable, AND I would expect to need to scrub the chamber and under the extractor with acetone or something like that to make sure than any lacquer is completely removed.

 

[dogtown tom]

Shaq Of course steel cases will accelerate wear - especially on the ejector & extractor. I wouldn't be concerned on a range gun but I would be concerned with a defensive gun because the parts can chip during an emergency & cause a malfunction.

Nonsense.
I have two Glocks that have run nothing but steel case Tula/Wolf/Monarch ....around 5,000 rounds total with ZERO parts breakage.

If an ejector or extractor "chips", breaks, melts, vaporizes or is disemboweled it isn't because of the steel case.....it's because you shoot crappy guns with crappy parts.

I don't think it's worth the few dollars' price difference.

I do.
When I buy Tula/Wolf/Monarch for under $10/50 and premium SD ammo is $20/25 the cost of a new ejector and extractor is paid for in one range trip.

 

[RX-79G]

5000 rounds is your big test? Science!

 

[Sunray]

The steel used in steel cases is very mild steel. Much softer than any firearm steel. The real issue with steel and AL is the quality of the ammo. That's fixed by not using factory ammo.

 

[RX-79G]

Where does one by non-factory steel or aluminum ammo?

 

[Shaq]

Nonsense.
I have two Glocks that have run nothing but steel case Tula/Wolf/Monarch ....around 5,000 rounds total with ZERO parts breakage.

If an ejector or extractor "chips", breaks, melts, vaporizes or is disemboweled it isn't because of the steel case.....it's because you shoot crappy guns with crappy parts.




I do.
When I buy Tula/Wolf/Monarch for under $10/50 and premium SD ammo is $20/25 the cost of a new ejector and extractor is paid for in one range trip.

You are not making a valid cost comparison. You are comparing range-type steel-case practice ammo with "premium SD ammo." Here is a valid comparison:

Steel Case practice ammo - .223 (Tula): 20 rounds, $6.50
Brass case practice ammo - .223 (Federal) 20 rounds, $8.50

9mm Steel Case practice ammo - (Tula) $11.75
9mm Brass case practice ammo - (Federal Am Eagle) 50 rounds: $15.25

Much smaller difference when comparing apples to apples.

 

[wally]

9mm Steel Case practice ammo - (Tula) $11.75

You are shopping poorly, I regularly buy it for ~$170/1000 ($8.50/50) from places like Sportsmans Guide, Weider's and Centerfire Systems. Its an even better deal when they have "free shipping" sales or coupons. (SPG did yesterday so I picked up another case of it).

Monarch (Brown Bear) is usually $10.99/50 at Academy, often on sale for $9.99/50.

AIM Surplus currently has Wolff steel case for $8.50/50, so you don't have to buy in case lots, but I don't generally buy there because their shipping tends to be on the high side.

Generally a case of the cheapest brass cased 9mm ammo is $40+ more per 1000 that the best deals on the steel cased ammo.

If you don't reload and don't mind the hassle of picking up the empties and selling them, you can recover some of the cost difference, but time is money.

I reload but shoot a lot of steel cased ammo for situations where I'd be losing most of it in the weeds, and the fact that they rust away to practically nothing after a few years helps keep my friend's pasture from looking like the streets of Mogadishu

All the "enhanced wear" comments contradicts my actual experience with 10's of thousands of rounds in each of 5.56, .45ACP and 9mm. I'll discount the 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 experiences because "the AK was designed for them", but my 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 AR uppers sure don't have any issues with them.

On second thought, don't buy any of it -- it'll ruin your gun on the first shot and the vapors will rot your teeth. More for me.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Admittedly, I'm not an expert in this; as you can tell from my original post. After a while googling today, I found out that the mild steel that Tula cases use has a Brinell hardness of 120HB, Brass cases have a hardens of 95-100HB, and extractors have a hardness of 211HB. I don't know what those numbers mean, but there doesn't seem to be much of a difference in hardness between the two.

Friction may be a bigger factor here. The coefficient of friction between brass and steel is .35 while the coefficient of friction between steel and steel is about .65-.70 (twice that of brass on steel). However, when lubricated with oil or grease, steel-on-steel is .16, and brass-on-steel is .18. So it seems that keeping your moving parts lubricated might mitigate much of the effects of using brass cased ammo.

I did find out, though, that many steel cased ammo (especially rifle ammo) uses a bi-metallic alloy jacket on the lead that is harder than copper, creating more wear inside the barrel. Tula pistol ammo,it seems, uses copper over steel. I'm not sure what effect that would have.

In addition, some steel case ammo uses lacquer which has more friction than steel-on-steel, while others use a polymer that is less. Also, rounds that taper more toward the point create less friction than straight walled ammo.

So, it would seem wear would depend on what type of coating is on the round, whether it is tapered or not, whether lube is used or not, what type of jacket is used, and the hardness of the case.

 

[jonnyc]

"So running 200-300 rounds through a pistol over the period of a few years probably won't hurt it that much?"

That much??? How about: Not in the least.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

"So running 200-300 rounds through a pistol over the period of a few years probably won't hurt it that much?"

That much??? How about: Not in the least.

That's what I was thinking after reading up on it. Maybe a few thousand rounds might make a difference

 

[stchman]

You are shopping poorly, I regularly buy it for ~$170/1000 ($8.50/50) from places like Sportsmans Guide, Weider's and Centerfire Systems. Its an even better deal when they have "free shipping" sales or coupons. (SPG did yesterday so I picked up another case of it).

Monarch (Brown Bear) is usually $10.99/50 at Academy, often on sale for $9.99/50.

AIM Surplus currently has Wolff steel case for $8.50/50, so you don't have to buy in case lots, but I don't generally buy there because their shipping tends to be on the high side.

Generally a case of the cheapest brass cased 9mm ammo is $40+ more per 1000 that the best deals on the steel cased ammo.

If you don't reload and don't mind the hassle of picking up the empties and selling them, you can recover some of the cost difference, but time is money.

I reload but shoot a lot of steel cased ammo for situations where I'd be losing most of it in the weeds, and the fact that they rust away to practically nothing after a few years helps keep my friend's pasture from looking like the streets of Mogadishu

All the "enhanced wear" comments contradicts my actual experience with 10's of thousands of rounds in each of 5.56, .45ACP and 9mm. I'll discount the 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 experiences because "the AK was designed for them", but my 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 AR uppers sure don't have any issues with them.

On second thought, don't buy any of it -- it'll ruin your gun on the first shot and the vapors will rot your teeth. More for me.

I buy TulAmmo 9mm from CTD for $7.29 a box. I know some people hate CTD, but I only buy when they are the absolute cheapest.

 

[Reloadron]

Steel cases or Steel jackets on the bullets? Steel jacketed bullets use a very soft steel to form the jackets. While I do not shoot the stuff I have shot some steel jacketed bullets in rifle ammunition. There is no appreciable wear difference unless you get into a test like Lucky Gunner running a small mountain of rounds. Steel cases on the other hand are not likely to wear out a chamber. I see references to both in this thread, cases and bullet jackets?

Ron

 

[dogtown tom]

RX-79G 5000 rounds is your big test? Science!

For those two pistols it is.

And I've run thousands of steel case 9mm/.380/.45/.40 through several other pistols as well with no ill effects.

When you can come back with evidence of destroyed ejectors/extractors your opinion will count.

 

[rskent]

Mr Flintstone, Some will tell you the running steel cased rounds will destroy your gun
in just one magazine, and some will tell you that you can run the stuff with no ill effects at all.

Who is right?

Beats me. But I think if you use a little common sense you will be fine.

First, I don't think steel cased rounds hurt anything. Its the steel jacketed bullet that sometimes comes with it that may, or may not hurt your gun.

What type of barrel do you have?

Is it an expensive stainless barrel with deep sharp rifling designed to shoot wad-cutters?
Maybe you might want to stick to lead. I cant see me shooting Tula out of an Ed Brown barrel.

Is it a hammer forged barrel with soft “soft as in no sharp edges” polygonal rifling?
Maybe steel jacketed bullets won't be a big deal.

I mostly shoot reloads, but sometimes I shoot Tula out of my Glocks. The only thing I wont shoot out of a Glock is Wolf.
Not because I think it will hurt the gun. But because they don’t fly straight.

 

[Panzerschwein]

The Пистолет Макарова (ПМ), and most other Soviet firearms, were designed to work with steel cased ammunition:



I have fired over 3,000 rounds of steel cased ammo through this ПМ with no failures or wear beyond normal use.

 

[Reloadron]

The US actually made some steel cased ammunition as well as pennies. During 1943 with the war effort trying to conserve brass we produced steel jacketed .45 ACP as well as the more popular steel pennies.

As to shooting steel jacket bullets? Keep in mind the jacket is a very soft steel.



The steel had a zinc coating to prevent rust and corrosion and as can be seen on the cartridges and pennies once the zinc wore off some rust started.

Ron

 

[Fuego]

I have used steel cased ammo in my rifles and pistols with no problems.

For those who complain about wear, I would like to see the studies.

Numbers and statistics are better than anecdotes and theories.

Steel cased ammo works just fine.

 

[Ibmikey]

I use steel case ammo in my Comblock pistols that were designed for it, however i recently purchased 300 rounds of Winchester "forged" which turned out to be steel case. My Hi Powers ate it ok but a new R 51 did not like it....to be fair it was the first two mags through the pistol but the next 500 brass cased rounds did not have an issue.
My AR's will never see steel while i am still around, i have pounded out many a stuck case from friend's AR's where they bought "cheap". Of my thirty + AR's i have never had a stuck brass case.

 

[PabloJ]

It isn't hard steel and it's usually coated or plated case. Not particularly relevant since when bought in bulk the difference between steel case and brass is 2c to 3c per 9x19 cartridge. I mentioned 9 Luger because I assume that is what most people use as range caliber.

 

[RX-79G]

Part of the problem with steel cases and their coatings is how much extra force the extractor often has to put up with. That isn't a hardness issue.