Brandon Bangerter
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Steel target design safe?
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Jim Watson
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What grade of steel?
Unless a good hard alloy, the .40 will beat it up, maybe to the point of throwing frag.
Unless a good hard alloy, the .40 will beat it up, maybe to the point of throwing frag.
Chuck R.
Member
Agree with Jim...what type steel??
I have all AR500 3/8ths, they hold up extremely well. Safety depends on steel construction, how it's mounted and distance (in relation to caliber). Once steel gets dimpled, you'll start getting bounce-back.
I have all AR500 3/8ths, they hold up extremely well. Safety depends on steel construction, how it's mounted and distance (in relation to caliber). Once steel gets dimpled, you'll start getting bounce-back.
i think you'll survive if you wear eyepro but there's certainly a lot of room for improvement.
1) don't use welds
2) move the plate up so that it covers the cross bar. rounds impacting the top of your hinges will ricochet up and leave the impact area
3) welding the legs together makes it difficult to transport and you have to trash your whole stand when you lose a leg. weld up some joints and stick rebar into them.
4) swinging targets are not good for pistol. if you are shooting a round with enough energy to push the target back, so that it swings forward, then you hit it again, the splatter will come back at you instead of going into the dirt. i'd recommend slow fire only with a swinging target.
1) don't use welds
2) move the plate up so that it covers the cross bar. rounds impacting the top of your hinges will ricochet up and leave the impact area
3) welding the legs together makes it difficult to transport and you have to trash your whole stand when you lose a leg. weld up some joints and stick rebar into them.
4) swinging targets are not good for pistol. if you are shooting a round with enough energy to push the target back, so that it swings forward, then you hit it again, the splatter will come back at you instead of going into the dirt. i'd recommend slow fire only with a swinging target.
Brandon Bangerter
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Awesome this is super helpful. I’m not sure what grade the steel is. Sounds like with this target I should stay at least 50 yards away?
doubleh
Member
1/2" mild steel plate will handle up to 45 Colt at 20-25 yards with no damage as long as you are shooting lead bullets. I've used a set of these for twenty years. If you are going to shoot jacketed bullets it's going to take AR500 steel.
I retired the mild swingers and went to AR500 a couple of years ago just for it's versatility. I can shoot whatever I wish at them with no damage.
I retired the mild swingers and went to AR500 a couple of years ago just for it's versatility. I can shoot whatever I wish at them with no damage.
I have shot tens of thousands of rounds at my two 12" inch gong targets Ninety nine percent were pistol rounds. I have gone through several variations, the discs have grown from eight inch now to 12 inch. Eight inch diameter plate was just too hard to hit at 50 yards. Plate thickness is 1/2" and the whole target must weigh 40 to 50 pounds! Gets heavier every year!! My targets have welded joints. I tried chains and they came apart very quickly. If hit, they broke sooner. I found that I must use the heaviest bar I could, about 1 inch was the minimum, 1 1/2" better. Three quarter inch bar stock would fracture fatigue just at the plate rim. The swinging attachment, currently a pipe, that will fatigue fracture and so will the joints. Weld joints last a few years with pistol ammunition. Rifle ammunition is very hard on the target. Early on I tried shooting at the things at 150 yards with miltary ball. Two hits that almost went through these mild steel plates was enough to convince me that FMJ was a bad idea. Even jacketed HP will create craters. The closest I will shoot at the things with rifle cast bullets is 100 yards, and still, the shock is enough to bust welds.
I don't remember if this broke with 303 Brit cast bullets or 30-30 cast, but anything going 1700 fps hits my targets hard. I do remember shooters at the range laughing when the pendulum fell off.
I am of the opinion that with a rifle, 100 yards is a minimum distance due to the velocity of the splatter coming off the target, and the violence of the impact on the target. Even 50 yards with a handgun will raise complaints at my range, depending on the way the wind is blowing. I was shooting one day, a stiff wind blowing in my face, at my gong target at 50 yards. Lead fragments, lighter than tin foil, smaller than ground pepper , had been blown up, caught in the wind and fell on people easily 75 yards from the target. At most they felt something like fleas landing, but these characters were outraged, went to the next club meeting and demanded that steel target use be banned from the Club range! So, be aware, very light fragments will drift in the wind and infuriate those who don't like the sound, and already dislike steel targets because they believe shooters should only be shooting at paper targets.
I have seen steel targets absolutely chewed up with high power rifle bullets. But a few shooters have brought out modern steel plates and hit them in my presence , at 100 yards, with high power bullets, and upon examination, no indentation. So, I don't know. I do know a bud who managed the El Paso Shooting Club range, he claimed every steel target he put out, to 300 yards, got shot to swiss cheese. He was able to find armored personnel carrier hatches, and those were shot up. He said his best solution was to buy junked engine blocks and let the rifle shooters chew those up. The blocks were cheap.
The closest I shoot pistols at my gong targets is 25 yards. I think everyone ought to be able to hold 12 inches at 25 yards, most of the time,
and that is far enough that the big lead fragments all fall within 10 feet from the target, which adds a lot of space between me and any lead splatter. Lots of people have misconceptions about ricochets and steel targets. At least with pistol bullets, I have shot tens of thousands of lead, JHP, and FMJ. These bullets fragment, similar to a snow ball hitting a brick wall. The bigger the bullet, typically 44 and 45, what is left is the size of a nickle. Smaller bullets, 38, 9mm, what is left at the foot of the target is dime sized, at most. Plated bullets act similarly. I sometimes find 357 JHP jackets split like star bursts, I find them up to ten feet, depending on the wind, but no lead core inside. The jacket is light and will drift with the wind. My targets are up, about four feet up, so any bullets that miss, go into the berm. It is dangerous to have bullets skip on the ground, you cannot predict where they will land.
I am interested in reading about better designs.
I don't remember if this broke with 303 Brit cast bullets or 30-30 cast, but anything going 1700 fps hits my targets hard. I do remember shooters at the range laughing when the pendulum fell off.
I am of the opinion that with a rifle, 100 yards is a minimum distance due to the velocity of the splatter coming off the target, and the violence of the impact on the target. Even 50 yards with a handgun will raise complaints at my range, depending on the way the wind is blowing. I was shooting one day, a stiff wind blowing in my face, at my gong target at 50 yards. Lead fragments, lighter than tin foil, smaller than ground pepper , had been blown up, caught in the wind and fell on people easily 75 yards from the target. At most they felt something like fleas landing, but these characters were outraged, went to the next club meeting and demanded that steel target use be banned from the Club range! So, be aware, very light fragments will drift in the wind and infuriate those who don't like the sound, and already dislike steel targets because they believe shooters should only be shooting at paper targets.
I have seen steel targets absolutely chewed up with high power rifle bullets. But a few shooters have brought out modern steel plates and hit them in my presence , at 100 yards, with high power bullets, and upon examination, no indentation. So, I don't know. I do know a bud who managed the El Paso Shooting Club range, he claimed every steel target he put out, to 300 yards, got shot to swiss cheese. He was able to find armored personnel carrier hatches, and those were shot up. He said his best solution was to buy junked engine blocks and let the rifle shooters chew those up. The blocks were cheap.
The closest I shoot pistols at my gong targets is 25 yards. I think everyone ought to be able to hold 12 inches at 25 yards, most of the time,
and that is far enough that the big lead fragments all fall within 10 feet from the target, which adds a lot of space between me and any lead splatter. Lots of people have misconceptions about ricochets and steel targets. At least with pistol bullets, I have shot tens of thousands of lead, JHP, and FMJ. These bullets fragment, similar to a snow ball hitting a brick wall. The bigger the bullet, typically 44 and 45, what is left is the size of a nickle. Smaller bullets, 38, 9mm, what is left at the foot of the target is dime sized, at most. Plated bullets act similarly. I sometimes find 357 JHP jackets split like star bursts, I find them up to ten feet, depending on the wind, but no lead core inside. The jacket is light and will drift with the wind. My targets are up, about four feet up, so any bullets that miss, go into the berm. It is dangerous to have bullets skip on the ground, you cannot predict where they will land.
I am interested in reading about better designs.
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Chuck R.
Member
The 1st couple rds will tell you a lot about how it's going to hold up. If it dimples, then move it back further. Even dimpled steel is OK as long as you're outside the "splash zone", it just won't last as long. I have AR500 that I shoot a lot closer than the prescribed distances, but the surface is perfect, it's mounted at a backward angle and it has the ability to move when hit. Once a piece of my steel (I have something like 40 pieces) gets dimpled it moves back and becomes a rifle target.
For rifle I use a combination of chain and " Hang Fast Target Brackets" with a 3 link piece of chain to allow movement:
https://hangfasttargets.com/
The Hang Fast work great with simple "T" Posts, they even have built in sockets for common mounting nuts.
For the close in IDPA Silhouette steel I use Arntzen portable stands, that can be angled back and allow movement so I can change up the drill or stage I'm working:
The 8" circles are on home made stands utilizing a through bolt and heavy spring to allow the plate to move when hit. Set up for a "V" Drill:
Other than the rifle tgts which remain stationary with small berms, I really prefer portable stands as most of my pistol practice is on drills or "stages" so the ability to mix things up is key. Again, any of my pistol steel that gets dimpled is moved to a rifle target and replaced.
Brandon Bangerter
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Sure am appreciative of all the information so far everyone. Love the high road.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
For a first run, I'm sure it'll work just fine. Others have already pointed out areas to improve, so I'll leave that to you and make my comments more "engineering" type.
The steel is important. It's important because softer steels present a hazard, not to mention a wear, problem.
Soft steel will rapidly develop pock marks, bends, and other structural defects that make for unpredictability with respect to bullet deflections. Armor steel, however, doesn't have this problem, especially with the ammunition you'll be using.
If you get a chance, shoot some mild steel and some AR500 steel and you'll notice right away what I'm talking about.
You can shoot 1/2" thick AR500 with something like .223 or 5.56 at 3750 fps and all the bullet will do is literally splash against the steel. You'll see the mark where the bullet hit...but no indentation. There will be a spray of Lead along the plane of the AR500 plate and, if you look, you'll find a very flat disc of copper jacketing, about the size of a dime on the ground.
.223 or 5.56 at 3750 fps, however, will deeply pock mild steel, though...and will easily penetrate completely through 1/4", even 3/8" thick mild steel.
So I highly recommend AR500 for the actual target plate itself. With what you're shooting, probably 3/8" thick would be plenty OK.
The steel is important. It's important because softer steels present a hazard, not to mention a wear, problem.
Soft steel will rapidly develop pock marks, bends, and other structural defects that make for unpredictability with respect to bullet deflections. Armor steel, however, doesn't have this problem, especially with the ammunition you'll be using.
If you get a chance, shoot some mild steel and some AR500 steel and you'll notice right away what I'm talking about.
You can shoot 1/2" thick AR500 with something like .223 or 5.56 at 3750 fps and all the bullet will do is literally splash against the steel. You'll see the mark where the bullet hit...but no indentation. There will be a spray of Lead along the plane of the AR500 plate and, if you look, you'll find a very flat disc of copper jacketing, about the size of a dime on the ground.
.223 or 5.56 at 3750 fps, however, will deeply pock mild steel, though...and will easily penetrate completely through 1/4", even 3/8" thick mild steel.
So I highly recommend AR500 for the actual target plate itself. With what you're shooting, probably 3/8" thick would be plenty OK.
TomJ
Contributing Member
The target looks good, but you may want to use a different backstop
Brandon Bangerter
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Ha ha, that’s for sure. Sounds like I need to pick up some AR500. I’ll just save this one for my boy to shoot his .22 at. If you think it would be safe enough for that.The target looks good, but you may want to use a different backstop
Rembrandt
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I've made some from mild steel, only because it was free and available. As mentioned AR500 is the better way to go. The mild steel works if the rounds are subsonic, like shotgun slugs and pistol rounds, jacketed rifle rounds crater and tear up the metal.
The way I think, the target holder should not be steel. Because you will not likely make the stand/holder/hanger out of AR500 and with a shape that prevents deflection in unwanted directions, it should simply be made of a sacrificial material like wood or Aluminum.
JeffG
Member
The wood is going to get chewed, but bullet fragments will be absorbed, and not head back toward the shooter. Even so, I don't shoot AR550 closer than 100 yards with rifle rounds.
Ignition Override
Member
11 yards is the minimum rule here at the nice private club for gongs (handgun ammo only-no magnum). No idea what type of steel.
** Please note: on the day when I qualified at this Action Pistol range,
Two Guys were Nicked on the face by tiny, slow speed ricochets.
Make sure that everybody wears glasses! We had to remind a buddy's guest to evaluate his plastic sunglasses.
** Please note: on the day when I qualified at this Action Pistol range,
Two Guys were Nicked on the face by tiny, slow speed ricochets.
Make sure that everybody wears glasses! We had to remind a buddy's guest to evaluate his plastic sunglasses.
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This is pretty much my fav target holder. I shoot them from 10 yards to past 1000. I shoot them with ar15 as close as 20 yards but I wouldn’t recommend that to anyone.
What I like is that it’s held at an angle but the bolts aren’t tightened so you can push the bottom of the target back another ten degrees or so.
I also like that you just drop it on top of a t post. They last forever even when they really get shot up. And they’re easy to stick in the ground anywhere.
public ranges they prob wouldn’t be too keen on you pounding posts into the ground.
doubleh
Member
Anything that requires a post is a non starter for me. It's just too much trouble and expense to drag a BIG compressor and an air drill or a bobcat with a carbide hole drilling attachment with me when I go shooting. My portable targets either have a heavy base plate to support them or have to be made like a sawhorse so they can just be set down on top of the rocks.
I have never had a bounce-back when shooting lead at swinging targets. You can see the dust fly under the target from lead splatter with a hit except on the very rare days when we have wet ground. You will find a very thin lead disc under the target for every hit. No lead worth recovering is left.
My portable targets either have a heavy base plate to support them or have to be made like a sawhorse so they can just be set down on top of the rocks.I have never had a bounce-back when shooting lead at swinging targets. You can see the dust fly under the target from lead splatter with a hit except on the very rare days when we have wet ground. You will find a very thin lead disc under the target for every hit. No lead worth recovering is left.
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Brandon Bangerter
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Where did you get the hardware for the sawhorse legs?
JeffG
Member
I bought the sawhorse as a sawhorse kit from Menards. I would think most big box DIY places would have similar products.
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Good Ol' Boy
Member
With so many places selling AR500 steel targets at reasonable prices it's silly to use anything else.
I've been using an 8" 1/4" thick plate and 3" 3/8" thick plate from Walmart. The 3/8" plates are rated for magnum, higher powered rifle and slugs and the 1/4" plates are basically for non magnum hand gun rounds.
Mine swing on chains and I've never had any problems.
I've been using an 8" 1/4" thick plate and 3" 3/8" thick plate from Walmart. The 3/8" plates are rated for magnum, higher powered rifle and slugs and the 1/4" plates are basically for non magnum hand gun rounds.
Mine swing on chains and I've never had any problems.
ontarget
Member
Be careful with mild steel. Even at 100 yards we were nearly shooting through 1/2 inch mild plate steel with .223 fmj bullets and the jackets were stripping off and bouncing back 75 yards. The rounds were not making dimples they were making craters like someone used a drill 3/4 of the way through the plate. Not good. They went in the scrap pile. Now only shoot AR500 steel.
redneck2
Member
I used to work at the LGS that had an excellent indoor range. Targets were paper with steel hangers. We would get ricochets, typically from bullet jackets. I had to bandage up one guy that had maybe a 1/2” cut on his forehead.
I have a friend that made a swinging target out of 3/4” diamond plate. A .30-06 with hunting ammo drilled right thru it at 100 yards
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