Steels I should look for in a new folder?

[Deus Machina]

Alright, time to buy myself a new pocket knife. The things I've been doing with it lately need something I can easily open one-handed, so that means automatic, spring-assisted, or a flipper style. I'm also not looking for a 'defensive' knife--I much prefer 2 1/4" or shorter and unserrated, but I'm open to any style and up to about 3". The unserrated thing isn't set in stone, but is a severe preference.

I've become a fan of Kershaw designs through my searching, even if I do have a strong preference for a back lock over their locking liner...

Anyway, all that just may help narrow it down (steels found largely only in fixed blades, for example). Mostly, I'm looking for what steels I should look at in a blade. I mean, I've been a fan of Gerber, but it does seem like their blade steel is a little softer, and Kershaw advertises on the designations, without any explanation. I've been looking at the Chive, but don't know how the 420HC (High Carbon, I assume) stacks up against the cheaper Gerber folders. :banghead:

I just want to know what I can find that will take (come with, I hope!) a razor edge, and keep it.

Now, keep in mind this is a garage-used knife. So as much as I'd love to, I'm expecting paying around $50 or $75 to be my upper limit.

 

[Black Toe Knives]

Kershaw Scallion or Chive is the knife you are looking for. Both are designed Knifemaking hall of famer Ken Onion. My wife and I both carry Kershaws. We abuse our kershaws. I carried mine for 3 years, finally retired it for larger Kershaw. We wont carry anything else.

 

[bikerdoc]

Take a look at the Spyderco Native. S30V.

 

[hso]

Blade steel can be debated all day and into the night, but the question hinges around what the knife will be used for, blade geometry, heat treat and steel. If you know the first you can rule out part of the rest and still have a days worth of debate and end up at the end of the day having the carbon steel camp and the corrosion resistant steel camp (and the non-steel camp off in the corner).

Look at the Encyclopedia and Steel information on AG Russell's site when you get the chance. http://www.agrussell.com/default.asp

 

[atomd]

I think Kershaw is way better than those cheap Gerber folders. I like their Skyline, Leek, and Chive. All pretty good for the money. I don't know what's wrong with Gerber but they've been putting out some real junky cheap folders the last few years. I've had a couple of them and they've been tucked so far away I don't even know where they are, nor do I care.

The steel type completely depends on what you're going to be doing with the blade. There is no perfect steel. They all have positives and negatives. I think it's good to have something like an S30V for fine cutting and general light duty use and also VG-10 or D2 would be a good choice too. There are other great steels like ZDP-189 and S90V, etc...but you won't see a ton of box store knives made in those steels. It's good to have a knife in a steel like 1095 too for doing things that would chip the S30V. Some steel are more or less resistant to rust also which is something to think about.

 

[Zeke/PA]

Most commercial knives marketed these days have DECENT steel in them and IN REALITY, unless rust RESISTANCE is an issue, the steel type should not be a genuine concern for the AVERAGE user.
Simply put, If you like the knife, buy it!
In the past two or so years, I have become a fan of Opinel knives because of price AND durability as the Carbon steel offerings at least, are capable of VERY SCARY edges.

 

[atomd]

In the past two or so years, I have become a fan of Opinel knives because of price AND durability as the Carbon steel offerings at least, are capable of VERY SCARY edges.

They are a fantastic value. $10 for a good working knife like that is amazing. And, if you abuse it a little too much...it's no big deal because it was only $10. They are worth every penny and more.

 

[Carl Levitian]

"I've been looking at the Chive, but don't know how the 420HC (High Carbon, I assume) stacks up against the cheaper Gerber folders. "


I don't kow what cheaper Gerber folders you are talking about, but according to thier own website, Kershaw uses the exact same steel in the chive, and Scallion series knives as the Gerber LST and Gator series. Both use 420HC. In the Vapor series Kershaw, AUS6A is used.

Lots of people like to knock Gerber, but in a lot of cases they are ignorant of the fact that both companies use the exact same stuff in the knives. Kind of like the Chevy vs Ford insanity. Both will get the job done.

So far I've yet to find any of them that cut as well as a lowly Opinel.

 

[atomd]

Lots of people like to knock Gerber, but in a lot of cases they are ignorant of the fact that both companies use the exact same stuff in the knives. Kind of like the Chevy vs Ford insanity. Both will get the job done.

There's a lot more to a folding knife than just the steel alone. I've owned plenty of both and I can say for sure that any every lower priced folding Gerber I've ever had in the last 10 years has been pretty darn junky. Poor fit and finish, gritty not well fitted action...wobbly blades, you name it. The overall quality was just poor. The designs were bad to begin with and not executed well at all. For some reason, people keep giving me them as gifts. The last one I got as a gift, my finger tip was sore from the pressure it took to just open it a couple of times. It was so poorly fitted and gritty I swear it took 15lbs of pressure just to get the blade 1/2 way open. It sounded like someone sweeping the floor when it was opening. I noticed all sorts of plastic being shaved off on the inside and little black flakes every time it was opened. Grrrrreeeeaaaat quality there!

Sure Gerber does make some half decent knives here and there...but if it's a folder under $50 I'd stay away from it with a 10ft pole. Kershaw on the other hand...their budget stuff is pretty decent. Much higher quality than the equally priced Gerber. You can tell the difference right away. There's no contest at all. It's not Chevy VS Ford, it's night and day.

 

[Deus Machina]

I figured Kershaw's cheaper knives use some pretty common steels, which Gerber would also likely use. Figured the edge complaints would be the finish, or the angle, or the heat treatment, or something.

As far as Gerber goes, I've only had an Ultralight LST that my dad slipped into my stocking one Christmas six years or so ago, and it's the wisest thing he's given me that cost money. Kept its edge as well as anything I've had before despite my abuse, and only swapped it out for a Case Mini Blackhorn after the edge finally got less than shaving-sharp and got a little chip near the tip. If not for that chip, I'd just brush is over a stone.

I'd like to grind that chip out a little, just to keep the one physical object he gave me that gets more use than the 22/45 MkIII.

 

[Black Toe Knives]

420HC Is stainless steel is in same range as 440c with a hardness rating 56-58 RC. It is one step below 440c. It is one step above 420js 55-57 harness.

 

[Brimic]

They all have positives and negatives. I think it's good to have something like an S30V for fine cutting and general light duty use and also VG-10 or D2 would be a good choice too.

I have several Spydercos in the first two, and a Gerber fixed blade (Freeman) in D2. All have held up well for me.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Short List

Just a quick summary of steels with which I'm familiar, all of which perform well.

Let me also hasten to add: steel isn't everything. Heat treat, blade shape, edge geometry, grind quality, handle materials, and overall fit & finish are important.

With that said . . .

Stainless:

• 440C
• 425M
• 420HC
• 12C27 (Sandvik)
• 13C26 (Sandvik)
• AUS8
• S30V
• 154CM
• "Tru-Sharp" (Case XX, brand name, composition unknown)
• whatever Wenger uses in their SAK series

Carbon Steel: I'm only personally familiar with 1095 and Case XX "CV" (Chrome Vanadium) steel. I have a number of carbon steel blades whose designation is unknown (Mora knives, Järvenpää, Imperial [Ireland], and Böker), but whose quality is outstanding.
​

This is not meant to be an exhaustive list, but only a list of some steels that have performed well for me.

 

[MRPAPA]

440C
425M
420HC
12C27 (Sandvik)
13C26 (Sandvik)
AUS8
S30V
154CM
"Tru-Sharp" (Case XX, brand name, composition unknown)
whatever Wenger uses in their SAK series

I agree with most of the steel that you have listed above. The thing that most people do not research is the tempering technic of their "favorite" steel. For example, 440 is probably the most common steel used in modern knives. You will find that knives made all over the world have blades with 440 stamped onto them. But, you will find that there are differences in the quality of each blade. This is caused by the forging and tempering process used by each company. I appreciate the ordinary stainless steels used in making blades but I have found that the ancient technic used in making Damascus to be superior in all aspects for knife and sword making.
There are many different combinations of metals used in making the Damascus steel and even the cheapest metals such as O-1 tool steel, S-2 shock steel will beat any stainless steel or standard carbon steel blades by miles.
One of my favorites is the mixture of ATS-34 and 12C27 Sandvik steels. This Damascus billet not only will have a hardness of 58-60c and at the same time one of the most flexible steels but also is absolutely beautiful.
The top of the line, in my opinion, is the use of 1095 steel and Glorieta meteorite. You will pay dearly for this steel.
The best all around combination that is superior to most other mixtures is the use of 1095 & 15N20. This employs the use of nickel and is a mid-ranged steel in price.
There is a 416 stainless that is used for some applications of Damascus but this is not one of my picks.
Most of these combinations are folded between 180 and 600 times, it varies on the metal, and maker.

I have access to several individuals from overseas who make a wide variety of these knives. Most of these guys only make a handful each year so there are no stores or websites that they can be found in. If anyone would like more info just contact me because I distribute the knives for many of these guys. There are a few found on ebay but the prices normally reach into 4 digits. One of my newest friends actually has a website. I think that his knives are made near Jordan. He employees the use of Mosiac pins in the handles which are made of either camel bone, buffalo horn or stag for the most part and many of his knives have Damascus bolsters. His fixed blade knives all have full shanks and are around 3/16-1/4" in thickness. I say "his" but many of the other guys knives I am refering to are equally built.
I no longer purchase many knives that are found in Walmart or other retail stores because the inconsistencies are tremendous. Many of these knives that are thought of as top of the line, aren`t. A few knife companies that I continue to trade with are Cold Steel, Sog, Boker, Ka Bar, and sometimes, Case. But, I am very careful in my selection with these guys. German companies, on average make an excellent knife as does Japan. China has also incorparated a few fabulous knife companies as has the UK. Below is a website where you can find some of the best knives, for the money, that I know of. No they aren`t the absolute best on the planet but I don`t think that the majority of people spend a grand on a single knife.

http://buckandbear.com/products.asp?msecid=3

 

[JTW Jr.]

Let me also hasten to add: steel isn't everything. Heat treat, blade shape, edge geometry, grind quality, handle materials, and overall fit & finish are important.

Excellent points sir , I like the work Paul Bos does , he provides some excellent service for the heat treating of steel.

seeing as the OP said:

Now, keep in mind this is a garage-used knife. So as much as I'd love to, I'm expecting paying around $50 or $75 to be my upper limit.

Regardless of what Mr Pappa claims you should not be looking at Damascus for a using knife , any damascus steel worth its salt will cost way more than $75 for the steel alone.

Read Arfin & HSO's posts, those guys indeed know what they are talking about.

 

[Gerry McGinnis]

I would look at knives with 154CM, ATS-34, CPM S30V, or D2 (not quite stainless, but a great steel with very little care) blade steel in that price range. CRKT is also using some steel (8CR14MoV) out of China that is actually very nice stuff for the money, but I may be a tad bit biased. Sharpens fairly easily on a cardboard wheel and bench grinder setup, and stays that way though some pretty tough use.

JTW is correct, not sure why MRPAPA is suggesting a damascus blade. Looking in my high dollar materials drawer I see a good handfull of bars of Mike Norris and Chad Nichols stainless damascus, and they all have prices written on them over $250. Some, even more. Damasteel is also nice. (I suspect by ATS-34 and 12C27 MRPAPA is referring to Damasteel, which is actually made of RWL-34 and PMC27...) I have plenty of experience working and using all of these steels, and they offer pretty good performance, but not on par with most of the steels mentioned above. Sure are good looking, though! Chad Nichols is also a pretty good friend of mine, and a hell of a guy!

Far as carbon steels and carbon damascus, too much care and potential for rust in an EDC for the average person. Stick to a good quality stainless, and you will probably come away a happy customer.

Gerry

 

[JTW Jr.]

CRKT is also using some steel (8CR14MoV) out of China that is actually very nice stuff for the money, but I may be a tad bit biased

Hey bro , is that what they are using in your collaboration knives with CRKT ?

 

[MRPAPA]

Good advice Gerry

But I can get some awsome Damascus folders for less than $100.00. In fact I have posted a photo of a beautiful lockback folder on another thread that I can get for $65.00. There is some confusion about Damascus not only from members here but also worldwide. I travel extensively in my business which is knives,swords,and other weapons that have a bladed edge or spearhead. Many people have a general idea about knives and steel but most of the time they`re only about 50% correct and thats a generous percentage...LOLLOL. People have very strong opinions about this subject, sometimes there`s no changing their minds even if you have the very person who built the knife in question standing beside you, or if you show them literature containing the facts in question. When I first started selling knives I would get angry at those people but after a while it became funny to me.
Many subjects can have more than one correct answer when dealing with knives such as your remark about the ATS-34 and 12C27 that I refered. I`m unsure how you consider these steels to be RWL-34 and PMC27. RWL-34 has the same elements as ATS-34. It is normally a powder steel with very small grain size. Its also very clean. You can use this steel to make larger blades but a softer temper, like 54-56 would be needed. ATS-34 will be a bit more silver in color also. There are many variations of Damascus. So many, in fact, that it`s difficult for me to keep up with.
The forms of Damascus steel and the formulas used are very common knowledge in places such as Japan, Germany, UK, Great Britain and these days even Canadians are becoming very knowledgable in the art. I try as best I can to educate people on the subject as well as trying to make people realize that countries other than the U.S. make some extremely awsome knives. Not just Damascus, normal stainless steel knives. It`s a difficult task...LOLOL

Regardless of what Mr Pappa claims you should not be looking at Damascus for a using knife , any damascus steel worth its salt will cost way more than $75 for the steel alone.

Really??? I`m sorry but that is incorrect....LOL Most of the time when you find expensive damascus, it has other elements such as a Titanium Bolster, or the handle material will be some exotic something or other, or there will be diamonds or gold etc.etc. There are, however, some damascus which will be more expensive when materials such as Glorieta meteorite or some Sandvik steels are used and yes when any of the previously stated materials are used, normally it will be a showpiece. But when O-1 tool steel, S-2 shock steel or 1095 & 15N20 are employeed, you got yourself a solid knife for a good price. I have a few of all of the above. I started collecting Damascus before most American people had any idea as to what it was. damascus is the absolute best sword, knife, ax, spear, etc.etc. material that one could possibly have. yeah I know, some disagree just like my neighbor did the other day. I sacrificed an edge to show him that when held together, my knife would cut the blade of his Kershaw. Silly?? Sure, but what happened was exactly what I said would happen. I left a 1/16" groove in his blade while only rolling the edge of my knife which I quickly polished back to a razor edge.

So I hope that my post answers the question as to why I suggested such a knife. If anyone wants some links or info about this I will help as much as I`m able. Also, if anyone wants to see what I have for sale or what I can get, just let me know.

 

[JTW Jr.]

But I can get some awsome Damascus folders for less than $100.00

No, you can't , a mediocre damascus folder perhaps , but lets keep the OP's question in mind:

I just want to know what I can find that will take (come with, I hope!) a razor edge, and keep it.

The knives you refer to will not do that , and everyone here knows it.

Please stop.... you know nothing of what you speak about. Quality damascus costs way more than $60. Some of the crap you find on ebay might only run $60 for enough to make a blade , but stuff that will actually take and hold an edge is going to cost you more.

 

[MRPAPA]

No, you can't

LOLOL this is very normal. Well friend, regardless of how many times you say I can`t, you`ll be just as wrong each time. I`ve been in the business for over 20 years and Ive traveled the entire world in the business. Most people could see my experience simply by reading my posts. I do have the original question in mind, hence, my suggestion. But, to sit here and have you say that I am telling an untruth I will not do. In my opinion you should do a bit of research, in fact, lots. I have posted plenty of information on the subject. There`s enough there for anyone to follow up on and discover the point that I`ve made for themselves. I`m sorry if you have paid a huge amount for a few Damascus knives. I have done the same but I paid for the absolute best on the planet so no loss here. As for not knowing, I KNOW that from your posts that you are clueless...LOL You generalized all ebay knives as junk...LOLOL Just give it up. You`re embarrassing yourself. How in the world do you think that you know what I can get?? Youve said nothing educational yet. All that you have done is try to discredit other people. LOLOL Wait, I know what it is...You have more posts here...That must be it. Now I remember why I stopped visiting this one. There`s no helping you. I can`t help you but I tell you what...

You tell me how much a QUALITY Damascus knife will cost. Also tell me what material is used for the blade, handle and pins. Explain to me of the tang and bolster materials. Inform me of the forging process used and also the temperature that the steel was tempered at along with which process used such as oven, clay etc.etc. And then tell me where you found the description. If the knife doesn`t fall under the high end class in which I have discussed, and I can`t find the same materials and style or type for much less, I will say uncle.

Moderator, I`m done here so don`t lock the man`s thread.

For the original question, Check out my friend`s website below. He makes some of the finest Damascus steel in the world and he is just now gotten a website so it`s under construction but he has his contact information for you so that you can call him. When you call, you speak directly to him. He built the knives himself for a while and now has trained a crew to do it for him so he has started selling many more.

http://buckandbear.com/products.asp?msecid=3

 

[JTW Jr.]

I am going to bow out of any discussions with you sir , I have sent you a link to where we can continue this discussion with some of the premier knifemakers , as well as premier damascus makers who are anxious for you to enlighten them , so please , put yer $$$ with yer text is.

Back to the OP's question, have you narrowed down your choices yet ? A Benchmade Griptilian in 154cm for under $70 is a great buy.

 

[MRPAPA]

I am going to bow out of any discussions with you sir

As I have informed you...I have been a member of that forum for quite a while. I am one of the experts...LOLOL What a guy you are...

 

[SShepherd]

Now, keep in mind this is a garage-used knife. So as much as I'd love to, I'm expecting paying around $50 or $75 to be my upper limit.

you'll be fine with the chive. Here's another that would work well as a utility/garage knife:
http://www.crkt.com/Tuition
I'm not being a shill for Gerry, I just know he makes a well designed knife and the company he designs for has pretty decent quality.
As for the suggestion you should buy damascus...don't. You're going to use it as a beater and the finish will end up looking like junk, as a side note it's not going to perform any better than any other steel.

As to some misinformation in a previous post:

"This is caused by the forging and tempering process used by each company. I appreciate the ordinary stainless steels used in making blades but I have found that the ancient technic used in making Damascus to be superior in all aspects for knife and sword making."

Forging is a mechanical process, and not part of the actuall heat treating . The steel is heated to a specific temp, then quenched making it very hard and brittle. The tempering process brings the hardness and brittleness down and produces a servicable blade ( thats a simplified explanation)


As to the claims of "your findings" of "ancient technic" prove it. Modern metallurgy has make vast improvements in the last ...oh, 300 years or so. Your claims any type of "ancient technique" is simply hype.
I won't derail his thread by continuing-- I'll finish by saying it's difficult for someone looking for info on a specife steel or knife if they have to wade through alot of mis informtion, which is sad

 

[SShepherd]

exactly which forum have you been a long time member of? As for your claims of being an "expert" I find that highly questionable.

 

[Les George]

People have very strong opinions about this subject, sometimes there`s no changing their minds even if you have the very person who built the knife in question standing beside you, or if you show them literature containing the facts in question. When I first started selling knives I would get angry at those people but after a while it became funny to me.

Funny to me too...