Steely difference

[9mmforMe]

Is the difference between 440A and 440C the same as AUS8 and Aus6? How about the differences in characteristics? Feel free to be as technical as you need to be...I'm learning and want to learn more. Thanks in advance for any information.

 

[ugaarguy]

440C has significantly more carbon than 440A or B. The 440 steels also have much more chromium than AUS6 or AUS8. Carbon is the element most responsible for allowing steel to be hardened. Chromium is the element most responsible for corrosion resistance of a steel. A chromium content of 13% or higher in the alloy is required for a steel to be considered stainless.

Here's a graph - http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=440C, 440a, 440b, aus6, aus8&hrn=1&gm=0

Play around on the zKnives site and you can learn quite a bit about what each element does in a steel alloy, and how various alloys compare.

 

[9mmforMe]

Hey ugaarguy, just what I was looking for...thank you much!!

 

[Zeke/PA]

IMHO, technical comparison on paper is just that, a technical comparison as the average knife user would notice little difference between 420 Stainless, 440C or 440F.
I think that kitchen cutlery is a big rip off these days as a cheaper knife can perform average kitchen chores just as well as a high dollar one.
We use mostly Old Hickory knives for service and reasonable cost.
Wives and girlfriends are pure hell on kitchen cutlery.

 

[9mmforMe]

Thanks for your thoughts Zeke.

 

[Vonderek]

Wives and girlfriends are pure hell on kitchen cutlery.

Ain't that the truth. Everybody assumes all cutlery is stainless, never needs sharpening, and goes in the dishwasher.

 

[Sam Cade]

IMHO, technical comparison on paper is just that, a technical comparison as the average knife user would notice little difference between 420 Stainless, 440C or 440F.
I think that kitchen cutlery is a big rip off these days as a cheaper knife can perform average kitchen chores just as well as a high dollar one.

That is because very few people actually cook unfortunately.

We use mostly Old Hickory knives for service and reasonable cost.

It's a shame that OKC dropped chefs/cooks knives from the Old Hickory product line. Prepping a bunch of veggies with a butcher knife isn't much fun.
I've got high hopes for their new US made Sandvik 14C28N bladed "Robeson" line though.

Wives and girlfriends are pure hell on kitchen cutlery.

Education is the key.

 

[Zeke/PA]

NOTHING makes my blood boil more than to watch my Wife take a superbly honed knife and slice thru a food item that's on a granite counter top or a dish!!

 

[Zeke/PA]

Sam Cade,
I wasn't aware of the fact that OKC dropped the Old Hickory line as there seems to still be an ample supply of knives hereabout.
SMKW is still advertising the brand.
Guess I'll have to check the local Amish store this weekend.

 

[hso]

http://www.knifeart.com/steelfaqbyjo.html


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slice thru a food item that's on a granite counter top or a dish!!

I keep multiple poly cutting boards on the counters so there's little opportunity for that sort of behavior.

 

[Zeke/PA]

http://www.knifeart.com/steelfaqbyjo.html


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I keep multiple poly cutting boards on the counters so there's little opportunity for that sort of behavior.

I got 'em too BUT for whatever reason...............????

 

[mole]

I use a *gasp* glass cutting board. I use inexpensive paring and utility knives and just give them a run on the sharpmaker every few weeks. If I'm cutting raw meat on it, I want be be sure that I don't have a scarred cutting board.

 

[ugaarguy]

Mole, just use a wood cutting board. It's naturally anti-microbial, and it won't hurt your blades. Wood has been proven to be more sanitary than poly as well. If you're really worried about the board getting scarred up you can always sand a wood cutting board to restore the surface.

 

[Sam Cade]

Sam Cade,
I wasn't aware of the fact that OKC dropped the Old Hickory line as there seems to still be an ample supply of knives hereabout.

They dropped the chefs/cooks knives from Old Hickory. Years ago.

Like So:

 

[Zeke/PA]

They dropped the chefs/cooks knives from Old Hickory. Years ago.

Like So:

Thanks for the info. we have one ALMOST like it in the kitchen.

 

[GLOOB]

I think there's a lot of misinformation about knife steels on the internet. I've read dozens of places that 440C is a premium knife steel. But that when the steel is specified as only 440, it's usually "only" 400A. Depending on the knife's size and purpose, 440A might be superior (or at least just as good).

Buck has been making great knives out of lowly 420 series steel for half a century. And that's "inferior" to 440A, according to many of these "educators."

Harder is not always better. It's almost always more desirable for an edge to roll/fold under pressure rather than chip. That applies equally well to a thick edged axe or machete as it does a fine-edged kitchen knife or carving knife.

Regarding GF's: Mine has a glass insert in her countertop which she insists is a cutting board, despite my attempts to enlighten her. I have given up on sharpening her knives. And when we eat steaks at my place, I know I have to hone her knife after she's done rolling the edge on the plate. Sigh.

 

[ugaarguy]

Gloob, what misinformation have you seen in this thread or in the links that have been posted?

 

[GLOOB]

Didn't say anything about this thread, specifically. I said "the internet." Not trying to be argumentative. I thought it was commonly accepted that 440C is considered to be "superior" to 440A. AUS8>AUS6. Harder = better, VG10 rocks, D2 is da bomb, etc. Just from what I've read, here and there.

 

[Sam Cade]

Not trying to be argumentative.

I thought it was commonly accepted that 440C is considered to be "superior" to 440A.

We don't live in a world of absolutes unfortunately.

Optimally heat treated 440C is going to be a demonstrably superior cutlery steel for many applications.

440A is going to be tougher and more rust resistant but that is going to come at the price of edge retention.

 

[GLOOB]

You could also say optimally heat treated 440A is going to be demonstrably superior in many cutlery applications.

1095 can be hardened to RC65, but it is quite often treated to an RC of 58. If you can heat treat 1060 to the hardness you need for an application, then 1095 isn't superior for that knife.

Harder does not equal superior. The main reason "super" knife steels are expensive is because they are made in low volume. If better for most knives, in a demonstrable way, they would be mainstream and much cheaper than they are. A couple percent of this element or that costs neither an arm nor a leg. When they start using Americium and platinum in super steels, then that will be a different kind of snake oil.

 

[ugaarguy]

Gloob what you're misunderstanding is that many of these steels that can be heat treat to 65 rc are tougher at 58-60 rc than a steel that has a max attainable hardness of 60 rc. Yes, Buck does wonderful things with their Paul Bos supervised heat treat and excellent edge geometry on their 420 HC blades. However, Buck's Paul Bos supervised heat treat S30V with equally optimized edge geometry is even better. At SHOT a few years ago Ed Schempp's Spyderco Persian, that he sharpened himself on a slack belt, was the sharpest knife there as measured on a CATRA machine. Spyderco's Japanese manufacturer has an excellent heat treat on their VG-10 blades. Hitachi ZDP-189 is one of only a few steels that can be heat treated to 65 rc without becoming too brittle to use in at least a smaller fixed blade or even medium to large folder. H1 Nitrogen precipitation hardened steel is a great example of giving up some hardness and edge retention in order to gain true corrosion proofing.

 

[GLOOB]

Roselli makes blades over 8" long at RC 64-66 using plain old carbon steel with a carbon content of ~2.0%. (Twice the carbon of 1095). They stay sharper, longer, but also harder to sharpen and more brittle. Not so different from ZDP at RC65 (main difference being the presence of carbides that can affect sharpness and edge wear). When someone can make a 1/8" machete out of martensitic steel at RC65, then I'll consider that a super steel. ZDP is just another extreme compromise for a niche market. When that stops selling, someone will add 1% magic ingredient to it and call it something else.

High quality razor blades and microtomes with primary edge angles in the 10 degree range should be winning sharpness contests. I don't know what CATRA measures, but it isn't ultimate sharpness. You said the knife was hand sharpened, and that says it all. Sharpness comes from the way the knife is sharpened, not the steel. People were shaving with bronze razors centuries ago.

I don't care what steel it is. If it's "surgical stainless," made in China, made in Pakistan, it doesn't matter. Gimme a belt sander and a stone/hone, and I will put a shaving edge on the knife in no time flat.

If someone with the time, money, and determination wants to prove that D2 is the sharpness steel in existence, they'll win a contest, too. They'll find or create a contest where the sharpness criteria will favor their personal choice, and tada. Winner. Winning a sharpness contest at SHOT show is no different than a pooch winning best-in-show at a dog pageant. If there was a significant difference, the same knife would win the SHOT show contest year after year.

 

[ugaarguy]

High quality razor blades and microtomes with primary edge angles in the 10 degree range should be winning sharpness contests. I don't know what CATRA measures, but it isn't ultimate sharpness.

One, it was at the SHOT show, and CATRA was showing off their new machine, so it wasn't a formal contest. Two, it was at the SHOT show, and the informal contest became which person in the industry brought the sharpest pocket knife. No one was going back to their hotel room to get a safety razor blade, or a hand stropped straight razor. Three, before going any further on your tantrum, do some research on CATRA and the machines they produce for the industry. You complained about bad info on the web, and now you're spouting it off.

You said the knife was hand sharpened, and that says it all.

The point I was trying to make was not that VG-10 steel will magically make a knife sharper than one made from another steel. The point was that properly heat treated VG-10 is capable of taking a very fine edge and still being usable in a pocket knife. It was an example that what some now consider a mid grade steel is actually very capable.

Sharpness comes from the way the knife is sharpened, not the steel. People were shaving with bronze razors centuries ago.

It actually comes from both, plus the heat treatment. The steel alloy and the heat treat have to be right to allow the blade to be sharpened to its maximum potential. That's edge stability, which is different than edge retention. Yes, you can shave with a razor made from bronze, but bronze doesn't have the edge stability (not to mention edge retention) of modern steels.

I'm sure I've screwed something up in the above since it 0525 local, but Sam Cade or hso will be along later this morning to correct me.

 

[hso]

more sanitary than poly as well

uga,

You're going to have to prove that. Poly boards are cheap compared to wood allowing you to keep several on hand dedicating some to meats and others to veg preventing the biggest risk of food contamination. Most people won't take the time to clean wood the way it needs to be cleaned to stay sanitary, but poly boards get tossed into the dishwasher with the dishes (something you can't do with wood). Old board in the wash, new board out of the pantry onto the counter, newly sanitized board out of the washer into the pantry/drawer (repeat as needed).

It is remarkably easy to keep bacteria from growing on food prep surfaces at home with a spray bottle filled with distilled vinegar. Studies at the UT food sciences dept. showed spraying with vinegar was as effective as other methods save steam cleaning. Easily done after prep and cleanup it makes keeping the surfaces free of harmful bacteria simple. It is also inexpensive.

 

[9mmforMe]

The evolution of this thread has been very interesting and informative. I certainly found the information of distilled vinegar being greatly antimicrobial to be great news. I cook a good deal and cross contamination is one of my biggest concerns. I don't have any fancy cutlery but the ones I have I take good care of since I enjoy cooking so much. I have poly boards to prevent wifely damage to blades and really the "I'll cook again tonight, honey" system works quite well in my house.