Stopping power of a New Army vs modern revolver?
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princeofwands
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Box of Truth
Lead ball lethality?
Sounds like a job for my favorite ballistics guys, the Box of Truth.
Lead ball lethality?
Sounds like a job for my favorite ballistics guys, the Box of Truth.
ccyooper
Member
According to the old Lyman B P Handbook...25 gr of goex 3f under a 451 diam. rb gives 805 fps at the muzzle and 198 ft/lbs...thats from a 8" barrel.
6 more grains of powder and the velocity went on up to 933 fps...serious medicine for its intended purpose..
6 more grains of powder and the velocity went on up to 933 fps...serious medicine for its intended purpose..
Hi
Ed Sanow published a list of cap & ball .31, .36 & .44 round ball versus modern calibre one shot stops in the Feb 1998 copy of Handguns. I have pasted it but it's a bit messed up.
Regards,
kologha
Cap and Ball Ballistics
By Ed Sanow
Handguns February 1998
Cap and Ball Wound Ballistics
Calibre
Firearm
Bullet
FFFg
Velocity
Energy
1 Shot Stop
.31 Pocket
Baby Dragoon
46gr RB
11gr
821 fps
69 ft lb
30%
.36 Navy
Colt 1851 Navy
70gr RB
22gr
1038 fps
189 ft lb
59%
.44 Army
1861 New Army
141gr RB
35gr
935 fps
274 ft lb
75%
.44 Walker
1847 Walker
141gr RB
60gr
1287 fps
519 ft lb
87%
.44 Calibre RB Ballistics
0.44
1860 Sheriff
141gr RB
30gr
756 fps
179 ft lb
59%
0.44
1861 New Army
141gr RB
35gr
935 fps
274 ft lb
75%
0.44
Ruger Old Army
141gr RB
40gr
1031 fps
333 ft lb
79%
0.44
1848 Dragoon
141gr RB
50gr
1181 fps
437 ft lb
85%
0.44
1847 Walker
141gr RB
60gr
1287 fps
519 ft lb
87%
Cap and Ball versus Modern Cartridges
.31 Pocket
Baby Dragoon
46gr RB
11gr
821 fps
69 ft lb
30%
.22LR
Revolver
37gr LHP
FL
975 fps
78 ft lb
29%
.36 Navy
Colt 1851 Navy
70gr RB
22gr
1038 fps
189 ft lb
59%
9mm S
Semi Auto Pistol
88gr JHP
FL
1000 fps
189 ft lb
59%
.44 Army
New Army
141gr RB
35gr
935 fps
274 ft lb
75%
.44 Spl
Revolver
200gr LHP
FL
810 fps
292 ft lb
73%
.44 Walker
Walker 1847
141gr RB
60gr
1287 fps
519 ft lb
87%
.41 Mag
Revolver
175gr JHP
FL
1250 fps
608 ft lb
89%
Ed Sanow published a list of cap & ball .31, .36 & .44 round ball versus modern calibre one shot stops in the Feb 1998 copy of Handguns. I have pasted it but it's a bit messed up.
Regards,
kologha
Cap and Ball Ballistics
By Ed Sanow
Handguns February 1998
Cap and Ball Wound Ballistics
Calibre
Firearm
Bullet
FFFg
Velocity
Energy
1 Shot Stop
.31 Pocket
Baby Dragoon
46gr RB
11gr
821 fps
69 ft lb
30%
.36 Navy
Colt 1851 Navy
70gr RB
22gr
1038 fps
189 ft lb
59%
.44 Army
1861 New Army
141gr RB
35gr
935 fps
274 ft lb
75%
.44 Walker
1847 Walker
141gr RB
60gr
1287 fps
519 ft lb
87%
.44 Calibre RB Ballistics
0.44
1860 Sheriff
141gr RB
30gr
756 fps
179 ft lb
59%
0.44
1861 New Army
141gr RB
35gr
935 fps
274 ft lb
75%
0.44
Ruger Old Army
141gr RB
40gr
1031 fps
333 ft lb
79%
0.44
1848 Dragoon
141gr RB
50gr
1181 fps
437 ft lb
85%
0.44
1847 Walker
141gr RB
60gr
1287 fps
519 ft lb
87%
Cap and Ball versus Modern Cartridges
.31 Pocket
Baby Dragoon
46gr RB
11gr
821 fps
69 ft lb
30%
.22LR
Revolver
37gr LHP
FL
975 fps
78 ft lb
29%
.36 Navy
Colt 1851 Navy
70gr RB
22gr
1038 fps
189 ft lb
59%
9mm S
Semi Auto Pistol
88gr JHP
FL
1000 fps
189 ft lb
59%
.44 Army
New Army
141gr RB
35gr
935 fps
274 ft lb
75%
.44 Spl
Revolver
200gr LHP
FL
810 fps
292 ft lb
73%
.44 Walker
Walker 1847
141gr RB
60gr
1287 fps
519 ft lb
87%
.41 Mag
Revolver
175gr JHP
FL
1250 fps
608 ft lb
89%
Have to love the good old Fuller Index. Roll a couple dice and add and subtract a bit from the Fuller number, and you get Sanow's numbers.0.0057 * energy / frontal area + 61.5 = One shot stop %.
So a nailgun firing a 1/10" wide nail with half the energy of a .22 pistol has a one shot stop of...
0.0057 * 30 ft-lbs / 0.00785 in^2 + 61.5 = 83%! Why bother with a .45, when a .10 is plenty?
I'm with Ryan. It doesn't make me want to reevaluate the guns as much as it makes me want to reevaluate Sanow's junk science.
The one thing I've learned from hunting with patched round balls though, they stop game far out of proportion to their meager paper numbers. I've had faster drops and less tracking than with any centerfire caliber. Pretty amazing when you consider how old the technology is.
The one thing I've learned from hunting with patched round balls though, they stop game far out of proportion to their meager paper numbers. I've had faster drops and less tracking than with any centerfire caliber. Pretty amazing when you consider how old the technology is.
1 shot stop is higher on a number of the BP's than the popular 9mm
The way I read it, it's not the common 9mm Luger ... look at the bullet weight. It says 9mm S, which I take to be 9MM Short, especially when you consider the 88 grain bullet weight!
The way I read it, it's not the common 9mm Luger ... look at the bullet weight. It says 9mm S, which I take to be 9MM Short, especially when you consider the 88 grain bullet weight!
I heard about the use of a cap&ball revolver when a person was being accosted by an armed mugger. The victim of the mugger drew a cap&ball revolver and fired twice and dropped it and ran. The mugger dropped on the spot and never ran,or breathed a breath again in this world. Live by the sword. Die by the sword.
I learned a long time ago not to look at the successes. Anything can be successful. A few decades back, the largest Kodiak bear on record was killed with a .22 short. Long story, but it's documented. That doesn't mean the .22 is an ideal bear hunting round. Every cartridge and caliber has had it's share of instant one shot stops.
The secret is to look at the failures. They speak volumes about a particular round's effectiveness. They're a little harder to track, because they are the most ignored piece of data. I've always wished someone would compile those stats and publish it.
The secret is to look at the failures. They speak volumes about a particular round's effectiveness. They're a little harder to track, because they are the most ignored piece of data. I've always wished someone would compile those stats and publish it.
Coyote Rider
Member
Maybe I'm just a little bit paranoid...
Okay. I've seen similar threads before and always had the same thought, but noticed that no one else mentioned it, and in fact I've been reluctant to mention it myself, but maybe I should, so here goes, even if I sound like a damn fool. (Which incidentally I am, but that may be another story.)
Anyway, in the wake of the post-Katrina gun confiscations, and the anti-gun sentiments now dominating Congress, and the ongoing & accelerating erosion of our constitutional rights,and the way it turns out that we're all being spied on by the government (and have been even before 9/11), it's occured to me that we may soon be looking at illegal mass gun confiscations, and that there's a database in Washington (or Brussels???) with the name of everyone who's ever bought a gun from someone with an FFL on it that's going to make it a hell of a lot easier for them to know what doors to knock on. Makes me think that a Walker would protect me a lot better than a .44 magnum in the long run, if you get my drift...
Okay. I've seen similar threads before and always had the same thought, but noticed that no one else mentioned it, and in fact I've been reluctant to mention it myself, but maybe I should, so here goes, even if I sound like a damn fool. (Which incidentally I am, but that may be another story.)
Anyway, in the wake of the post-Katrina gun confiscations, and the anti-gun sentiments now dominating Congress, and the ongoing & accelerating erosion of our constitutional rights,and the way it turns out that we're all being spied on by the government (and have been even before 9/11), it's occured to me that we may soon be looking at illegal mass gun confiscations, and that there's a database in Washington (or Brussels???) with the name of everyone who's ever bought a gun from someone with an FFL on it that's going to make it a hell of a lot easier for them to know what doors to knock on. Makes me think that a Walker would protect me a lot better than a .44 magnum in the long run, if you get my drift...
Last edited:
Tommygunn
Member
Coyote Rider said:
Well, you might get lucky and get a couple of them + smoke cover.
I wouldn't want to use BP revolvers of any caliber against kevlar-clad goobermint ninja thugs armed with MP-5s and M-16s.
Although it would make for amusing headlines on the 6:00PM news ....
Coyote,
I've had similar thoughts about my black powder guns. I take any gloom and doom prediction with a big grain of salt but if the world does go to heck in a hand basket and big brother wants to grab our guns they will probably be more interested in the cartridge stuff. Tracable and more feared than BP guns. I won't be able to fight off the huns but at least I won't be left completely at the mercy of others. I will still be able to hunt and defend my self and family. Because they can't be traced through any government file they can be wrapped up and buried until big brother gets bored and goes away. The chances of this senario accually happening are slim but no one can predict the future.
Don
I've had similar thoughts about my black powder guns. I take any gloom and doom prediction with a big grain of salt but if the world does go to heck in a hand basket and big brother wants to grab our guns they will probably be more interested in the cartridge stuff. Tracable and more feared than BP guns. I won't be able to fight off the huns but at least I won't be left completely at the mercy of others. I will still be able to hunt and defend my self and family. Because they can't be traced through any government file they can be wrapped up and buried until big brother gets bored and goes away. The chances of this senario accually happening are slim but no one can predict the future.
Don
You guys make a good point about the covert nature of owning black powder weapons. It might also be a good idea to buy a few self defense weapons via private sale so as to not leave a paper trail. At least you'd have something to fall back on in an emergency after a gun grab.
I've never really thought about my black powder guns for self defense before, but they'd work just as well today as they did 200 years ago.
I've never really thought about my black powder guns for self defense before, but they'd work just as well today as they did 200 years ago.
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
What would Josie use?
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
You got that right, pardner.
Coyote Rider
Member
Does anyone know how to convert a musket into a Homeland Defense Rifle? I just got one, but there's no place for a clip...
DaveP (UK)
Member
Hmmmm.
For rapid repeated use you might do better to get some of that foam that cyclist use on handle bars and slip it over the muzzle.
Makes the grip more secure
Or fit a bayonet.
"They don't like it up 'em Cap'n Mainwaring Sir!"
For rapid repeated use you might do better to get some of that foam that cyclist use on handle bars and slip it over the muzzle.
Makes the grip more secure
Or fit a bayonet.
"They don't like it up 'em Cap'n Mainwaring Sir!"
Coyote Rider
Member
Omnivore
Member
I just had my 7.5" barreled .44 Colt at the range this weekend. Using a CED chrono, I clocked several 6-shot strings.
Using .454 round ball and 30 gr Goex, I started out (clean gun) getting high 700s to low 800s feet per second at 7 feet from the muzzle. As the gun fouled up, the velocity increased, and then averaged 841 Fps.
If a Walker can in fact take 60 grains of BP as some here are saying, that would be quite interesting...
The reliability of these weapons, in my admittedly limited experience, is less than I would tolerate in a defensive gun. Saturday I fired about 60 rounds, and had at least 10 misfires (hammer drops and, nothing - upon a secon hammer drop on the same cap, Bang! but you have to fuss around to know if you're dropping on a loaded or unloaded chamber since you have a mixture of them after a couple misfires. Other misfires occured due to a spent cap getting between the hammer and the frame, preventing the hammer from hitting the next cap). Plus, after I was done I noticed that the cylinder lock screw was missing. Ah! That explained why the hammer wouldn't always come back!
I'll take a so-so automatic or a modern revolver over what I'm getting from my Pietta C&B. I'd have to try another C&B or learn how to make it/them more reliable to even consider one as a serious defense tool, when so many guns are available that are better at simply going Bang. And this does not address long-term storage of a loaded C&B gun in potentially humid conditions. You'll have to unload and load more often, which means more cleaning...
Using .454 round ball and 30 gr Goex, I started out (clean gun) getting high 700s to low 800s feet per second at 7 feet from the muzzle. As the gun fouled up, the velocity increased, and then averaged 841 Fps.
If a Walker can in fact take 60 grains of BP as some here are saying, that would be quite interesting...
The reliability of these weapons, in my admittedly limited experience, is less than I would tolerate in a defensive gun. Saturday I fired about 60 rounds, and had at least 10 misfires (hammer drops and, nothing - upon a secon hammer drop on the same cap, Bang! but you have to fuss around to know if you're dropping on a loaded or unloaded chamber since you have a mixture of them after a couple misfires. Other misfires occured due to a spent cap getting between the hammer and the frame, preventing the hammer from hitting the next cap). Plus, after I was done I noticed that the cylinder lock screw was missing. Ah! That explained why the hammer wouldn't always come back!
I'll take a so-so automatic or a modern revolver over what I'm getting from my Pietta C&B. I'd have to try another C&B or learn how to make it/them more reliable to even consider one as a serious defense tool, when so many guns are available that are better at simply going Bang. And this does not address long-term storage of a loaded C&B gun in potentially humid conditions. You'll have to unload and load more often, which means more cleaning...
Omnivore,
I don't know what I'm doing different or right but I rarely get a misfire. If I'm using a tight cap I'll get them but not when using standard #11 caps. Of course I do get the occasional cap jam with my colt clones but never with my Remington clones. When I go to the range I rarely put more than 2 or 3 cylenders through a revolver. Some of my revolvers are more reliable than others and some I have to work out the bugs to get them shooting reliably. Obviously modern revolvers are more reliable but if all I had was a cap and ball I would feel confident that I could use it with good effect if I had to. I learn quickly when I get a new cap and ball just what needs to be done to make it a reliable shooter. As far as storing them loaded I have done this up to a month without any negative effect to reliability and some have stored them longer without a problem with them going bang. I think you will find that when maintained and loaded carefully cap and ball revolvers are nearly as reliable as many modern guns.
Don
I don't know what I'm doing different or right but I rarely get a misfire. If I'm using a tight cap I'll get them but not when using standard #11 caps. Of course I do get the occasional cap jam with my colt clones but never with my Remington clones. When I go to the range I rarely put more than 2 or 3 cylenders through a revolver. Some of my revolvers are more reliable than others and some I have to work out the bugs to get them shooting reliably. Obviously modern revolvers are more reliable but if all I had was a cap and ball I would feel confident that I could use it with good effect if I had to. I learn quickly when I get a new cap and ball just what needs to be done to make it a reliable shooter. As far as storing them loaded I have done this up to a month without any negative effect to reliability and some have stored them longer without a problem with them going bang. I think you will find that when maintained and loaded carefully cap and ball revolvers are nearly as reliable as many modern guns.
Don
Omnivore
Member
Don, you have a point. My Pietta gets less reliable with each cylinder fired, as I suppose should be expected. As the fouling accumulates on the nipples, the caps get harder and harder to seat, hence the more likely the misfire. So that was my observation this weekend.
On a clean gun the #11s wont stay on. On a dirty gun, the #10 caps are very hard to seat. I haven't tried #11s on a dirty gun. Fired caps will go all over the place, as they open up and fall off randomly.
For defense of course we are talking about firing a clean gun, so you have a maximum of five of your more reliable shots, eight with a LeMatt (seven balls and one load of shot) and that's it.
Long-term storage of a loaded gun would of course depend on conditions, but I'm confident that my cartridge guns would fire after a year or more (not that I ever wait that long, but..) even in my pocket.
On a clean gun the #11s wont stay on. On a dirty gun, the #10 caps are very hard to seat. I haven't tried #11s on a dirty gun. Fired caps will go all over the place, as they open up and fall off randomly.
For defense of course we are talking about firing a clean gun, so you have a maximum of five of your more reliable shots, eight with a LeMatt (seven balls and one load of shot) and that's it.
Long-term storage of a loaded gun would of course depend on conditions, but I'm confident that my cartridge guns would fire after a year or more (not that I ever wait that long, but..) even in my pocket.
Omnivore,
One trick I've learned with the #11 caps that are a little loose is to pinch them slightly. I'm sure you know of this already. Another thing that helps is putting those little cap keepers over the capped nipples. They are just a small cross section of plastic tubing that slides over the capped nipple. When the gun is fired the cap stays(more or less) intact and less likely to fall into the action. I've heard that some cowboy action shooters use them. As far as cap and ball revolvers compared to modern revolvers there is no comparison. New technology gets used because it has clear advantages over old technology. That doesn't mean that the old technology doesn't work it just means it requires more time and attention to work properly. Time and technology moves on. I'm just the sort of guy that doesn't want to forget the old ways of doing things just in case our high tech way for some reason is no longer available to us. If you had a board to cut and the power went out your skil saw is useless but if you know how to use a hand saw the board will still get cut. People get so reliant on new technologies its hard to recall how we got along without them in the past. Obviously, if your posting on this board I'm preaching to the choir.
Don
One trick I've learned with the #11 caps that are a little loose is to pinch them slightly. I'm sure you know of this already. Another thing that helps is putting those little cap keepers over the capped nipples. They are just a small cross section of plastic tubing that slides over the capped nipple. When the gun is fired the cap stays(more or less) intact and less likely to fall into the action. I've heard that some cowboy action shooters use them. As far as cap and ball revolvers compared to modern revolvers there is no comparison. New technology gets used because it has clear advantages over old technology. That doesn't mean that the old technology doesn't work it just means it requires more time and attention to work properly. Time and technology moves on. I'm just the sort of guy that doesn't want to forget the old ways of doing things just in case our high tech way for some reason is no longer available to us. If you had a board to cut and the power went out your skil saw is useless but if you know how to use a hand saw the board will still get cut. People get so reliant on new technologies its hard to recall how we got along without them in the past. Obviously, if your posting on this board I'm preaching to the choir.
Don
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