Strategy against pack robberies

[FCFC]

They are cowards. The second you pull a gun, they will run screaming like little school girls. When I see packs or any group of young males approaching me, I have my hand on my gun. If they approach me I will pull it before they get close enough to harm me.

I suggest that there is a useful categorization of pack robberies.

Category A: Pack robberies when one or more in the pack have a firearm.

Category B: Pack robberies when no one in the pack has a firearm.


If one is unfortunate enough, or foolish enough, to get confronted by, say, 8 thugs, including 3 or 4 gunsels, drawing a gun may be a suboptimal tactic. I suggest that upon drawing your own firearm that expecting a gunsel(s) to start running away like little school girls is some sad hormone-fueled gun-as-supreme-solution logic.

OTOH, if one is unfortunate enough, or foolish enough, to get confronted by, say, 8 thugs and none are armed with a gun, then drawing a gun may well be optimal.

It depends.

And of course, there is the matter of how one would know that one or more of the pack has a firearm....

Much, much effort....about 99% of it....should be spent on avoiding the situation, through situational awareness, avoidance, and incisive thinking.

As one of our members says:

"The best technique to survive a shootout is to be somewhere else."

Same for pack robberies (or assaults).

The object is to go home every night.

 

[bdickens]

Pack attacks often happen in an instant, when you least expect them.

You're walking through a mall parking lot, when all of a sudden four armed punks pile out of a nearby car and are on top of you before you know it.

It's pretty hard to be "somewhere else" at that point in time.

Defensory: not to single you out particularly, but does the car with four armed punks in it materialize out of nowhere? What, there's a puff of smoke and *POOF* there they are? Like Satan being evoked by a Black Magician from the bowels of Hell?

Cars, even when driven by armed punks, must still obey the laws of physics. The car must stop first before they can jump out at you. It is impossible to be just cruising along and stop on a dime right next to you so everyone can jump out. They must be driving very slowly.

You should have noticed the car creeping up behind you in the mall parking lot in the first place and been wondering why. Why is this car coming up behind me at a walking pace? Why now? Why at the very spot I happen to be?

You most likely got selected because you were walking around with your head up your fourth point of contact. Real easy to jump someone who isn't paying attention. Much harder to jump someone who notices everything going on around him.

Situational awareness forestalls more incidents than you or I can ever know. Simply by keeping your head up and by being aware of your surroundings goes a long way towards "failing" the interview.

Seriously, threads like this and the 27 ninjas ( http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/WIMS.htm#fear ) responses would be a whole lot more amusing if those posting them weren't so deadly serious.

And Pilot: I hope you never try that with gang-bangers. Real gang bangers, not wannabees. They are not scared of guns, not scared of violence, and most certainly not scared of you. They do not live in the same world you and I live in. Violence for them is a way of life and they do not value life. Yours or theirs. Death means nothing, scars and bullet holes are their Bronze and Silver Stars. Getting cut, shot, arrested, serving time in prison move them up in rank and power within the hierarchy.

The idea that somehow a gun is some sort of magick talisman to ward of evil and that waving it around will make the bad guys recoil in horror like Dracula from a silver crucifix is unrealistic at best and quite possibly lethal despite what you may read in the "Armed Citizen" column in American Rifleman.

 

[SJG26]

"If you are alone, draw
"freeze!" - then shoot - for the legs
if u r not sure they are armed."

------I'm not the police-----no need to say anything---I engage immediately and shoot C.O.M. near to far and/or armed members!

 

[ar10]

They are cowards. The second you pull a gun, they will run screaming like little school girls. When I see packs or any group of young males approaching me, I have my hand on my gun. If they approach me I will pull it before they get close enough to harm me.

That may well be the case in most cases. the problem is the one who isn't intimidated, and unfortunately there's a whole bunch of "kids" today that firmly believe they're invincible. I guess you have to think about how you acted while a teenager. I know how I was, except we settled the problem with a fist fight instead of guns. But back then we didn't have the "Xbox" games they have today.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

If you are carrying, then in a pack attack, your gun becomes a liability, not a life saving asset.

That seems very defeatist. That's saying that if you are attacked by a group, you are going to lose and they are going to take your weapon, and hurt you with it. So it's better to just lose and get beat down, than lose and get shot.

To me, losing is not Option A. It's not even B C or D. Who's to say they won't beat you to death with or without a gun?

 

[Z-Michigan]

Just to keep you all nervous, in the great lakes/midwest, mob beatings without a robbery motive seem to be more and more common. Some victims have been killed, others permanently brain damaged. With that risk, a gun could only be beneficial. Obviously a semi-auto with the largest practical magazine is the best option for those risks.

 

[rainbowbob]

"The best technique to survive a shootout is to be somewhere else."

If you are carrying, then in a pack attack, your gun becomes a liability, not a life saving asset.

Well gee...that's really helpful and insightful advice. I can stop carrying a gun - because from now on, I'm always going to be "somewhere else" when crimes are being committed against less astute citizens who are foolish enough to be where the crime is occurring. Thanks!

 

[rainbowbob]

Does everyone here own a copy of Principles of Personal Defense? If not, have you ever read it?

Yes?

No?

No...but I just put Paladin Press in my Favorites list and will order the book today. thanks for the recommendation and the link.

 

[springmom]

Defensory: not to single you out particularly, but does the car with four armed punks in it materialize out of nowhere? What, there's a puff of smoke and *POOF* there they are? Like Satan being evoked by a Black Magician from the bowels of Hell?

Cars, even when driven by armed punks, must still obey the laws of physics. The car must stop first before they can jump out at you. It is impossible to be just cruising along and stop on a dime right next to you so everyone can jump out. They must be driving very slowly.

You should have noticed the car creeping up behind you in the mall parking lot in the first place and been wondering why. Why is this car coming up behind me at a walking pace? Why now? Why at the very spot I happen to be?

You most likely got selected because you were walking around with your head up your fourth point of contact. Real easy to jump someone who isn't paying attention. Much harder to jump someone who notices everything going on around him.

Situational awareness forestalls more incidents than you or I can ever know. Simply by keeping your head up and by being aware of your surroundings goes a long way towards "failing" the interview.

That sums it up nicely.

I have shared this with some privately on THR, but I think this is the place to bring it up on the forum.

A week ago tonight, I went out for my pre-bedtime dog walk. Our streets comprise a "square lollipop"...you drive in to the neighborhood via one very short street, turn left or right, and if you keep going it brings you back to the entrance street. The total loop is about 0.2 miles. A tiny neigbhorhood. We pretty much all know each other, and know each other's cars. It is generally quiet, but neighborhoods nearby are not so good, and there has been increasing trouble since September, 2005.

I had crossed our street and headed up the road (we live at a corner of the "lollipop" with the dogs and the pooper scooper and my Bersa .380 in my Jagwear. Just as I started up the way, I heard a vehicle turn into the neigborhood. A quick glance showed it was a ratty old red pickup, and it had turned in my direction. It took about 3 seconds for me to realize that they were pacing me, still behind me. I unzipped the Jagwear. They pulled up next to me and continued pacing me. There were three young men; two in the cab of the truck, one in the bed. None of them belonged here.

All I could think was "this is what happened to A (our youngest son, who was assaulted in early 2006 by a "pack")...this is what happened to A....."

I put my hand on the grip of my gun and turned to face them. One twitch toward a pocket or a door opening and I'd have had the Bersa out.

Whether it was my body language or the dogs or all of the above, I'll never know...but the driver gunned it, sped around the neighborhood, and out and away.

I was clearly checked out. And something about me said I would have been a bad target (good thinking on their point, I suppose. Had I been tootling along listening to my iPod or talking on the phone or just being oblivious, I doubt it would have gone so well.

Awareness and body language can be awfully important. How's yours?

Springmom

 

[Brian Dale]

Thanks, springmom.

Awareness and body language can be awfully important. How's yours?

Yep.

 

[ar10]

That seems very defeatist. That's saying that if you are attacked by a group, you are going to lose and they are going to take your weapon, and hurt you with it. So it's better to just lose and get beat down, than lose and get shot.

There really are no winners or losers and it makes little difference whether you're aware or day dreaming.

I was one of those victims a little over a year ago and I'm pretty aware of all my surroundings.
I was pulling in a wheel chair spot, (yes I'm disabled), and spotted 3 individuals leaning on a car in the same parking lot. The place was packed, in a pretty decent part of town. It was about 7pm on a spring night, it was warm and I had both windows in my pickup rolled down. The minute I pulled in I had the "feeling" something was going to happen and I pulled my gun and laid in my crotch with my shirt covering it. The white kid approached on the driver side and the 2 black kids approached on the passenger side. The white kid leaned on my door with his head in the window and asked me if I had any spare change, at the same time the two black kids were jerking the passenger side door open. So who do you shoot first?? And what happens afterward?

 

[springmom]

I am sorry that happened to you.

But awareness does matter; or at least, what you do with the awareness matters. You saw the guys, but you left your windows down and let them approach. Your doors were unlocked. You had a horn to lean on. And you were still in your car, fully able to put it in reverse and leave, dangling bad guys or otherwise.

Awareness has to be matched with action; in your case you might have been able to prevent the incident altogether by listening to your gut and just pulling back out and leaving; or made it more difficult for them by having your windows up and your doors locked.

As I've shared before on THR, my youngest son was assaulted, pistol-whipped, robbed and shot at in a "pack robbery" in early 2006. He would be the first to tell you that when the pickup truck full of BG's made a u-turn to come back toward them, he and his friend should have run as fast as possible in one of several directions available to them, where the BGs could not have easily followed. But they sat there and waited until it was too late. The result was horrible, and I still have nightmares about it.

When you have a choice and have time to listen to your gut or the hairs on the back of your neck or whatever it is that tells you "all is not as it should be", ACT THEN. My son was (still is) under 21 and can't carry a gun at all, although he said later it would have been fruitless even if he had...because by the time he'd become a victim it was too late.

Those of us who are disabled (I'm not in a wheelchair nowadays, but I have needed one in the past) especially need that awareness switched on, because we can't run fast or fight back easily.

It DOES matter.

Springmom

 

[ArcherandShooter]

Which one?

The white kid leaned on my door with his head in the window and asked me if I had any spare change, at the same time the two black kids were jerking the passenger side door open. So who do you shoot first?? And what happens afterward?

You take care of the threat on your side, because you can do so with one shot and then turn to deal with the other two knowing your 6 is clear.

Hopefully you will turn to find them cringing from the noise of the unexpected shot and backing out as fast as they can. If not, at least you have a uni-directional threat, and two of them trying to force their way in on the same side of the car will have them getting in each other's way.

 

[camslam]

B Dickens wrote:

And Pilot: I hope you never try that with gang-bangers. Real gang bangers, not wannabees. They are not scared of guns, not scared of violence, and most certainly not scared of you. They do not live in the same world you and I live in. Violence for them is a way of life and they do not value life. Yours or theirs. Death means nothing, scars and bullet holes are their Bronze and Silver Stars. Getting cut, shot, arrested, serving time in prison move them up in rank and power within the hierarchy.

Trying to keep from getting too philosophical, I would agree with everyone that has stated situational awareness is going to be your greatest ally. That being said, B Dickens hit the nail on the head, but I take a different approach to it.

He is most certainly correct when he describes many of the criminals that roam our streets in the description posted above. My observation would be, you had better be ready to deal with that type of individual. If you aren't willing to get in the gutter and play by their rules, there is a good chance you will lose. I know it sounds trite and cliched, but if the heat is too hot, get out of the kitchen.

That doesn't make me a tough guy, it doesn't make me Rambo, or a Mall Ninja, what that says is I value my life, the life of my family, and the lives of other innocent people. Because I value those lives, I have decided, FOR ME PERSONALLY, that I will do whatever it takes to defend those lives.

I just laugh at the comments from people that say, "avoidance is the best solution."

I want to say, "Really? Not being involved in this type of situation is the best solution? Gee, why don't any of those dummies that have these situations happen, think about that."

If someone is walking in a bad part of town, provoking a group or gang of people, and then wondering why they are in trouble, they deserve what they get. But seeing how I never read or hear about those events, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to those that get stuck in them.

On the flip side:

The idea that somehow a gun is some sort of magick talisman to ward of evil and that waving it around will make the bad guys recoil in horror like Dracula from a silver crucifix is unrealistic at best and quite possibly lethal despite what you may read in the "Armed Citizen" column in American Rifleman.

The majority of criminals you may face are not going to be cold, calculating, and calm, and whether you want to call a gun a "magic talisman" or anything else for that matter, the point is, in the vast majority of encounters involving a gun, no shots are fired? Why is that? I believe it helps criminals remember that they have a better place to be.

That is why guns are called equalizers, they make 1 greater than many, a woman stronger than a man, an old person able to defeat a young, etc... Magic Talisman? No. Effective weapon and equalizer? Yes.

 

[1 old 0311]

If you let you get yourself surrounded DEFENSE isn't going to work. Be aware of your surroundings and go on the OFFENSE BEFORE they circle you.

 

[printcraft]

the one who approaches is the lead

The problem arises take out the leader.
panics the other roaches = time.

Wife and I both carry.
She grew up on the south side of Chicago.
She can spot trouble a mile away. Its uncanny.

I get in front, take the hit, distract,
she and the kids have time.
Done it before, she was ready. No shots fired that time roaches beat it.

I won't take chances on the good will of a criminal that my family will be ok.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by Byron Dickens:
Defensory: not to single you out particularly, but does the car with four armed punks in it materialize out of nowhere? What, there's a puff of smoke and *POOF* there they are? Like Satan being evoked by a Black Magician from the bowels of Hell?

Cars, even when driven by armed punks, must still obey the laws of physics. The car must stop first before they can jump out at you. It is impossible to be just cruising along and stop on a dime right next to you so everyone can jump out. They must be driving very slowly.

You should have noticed the car creeping up behind you in the mall parking lot in the first place and been wondering why. Why is this car coming up behind me at a walking pace? Why now? Why at the very spot I happen to be?

You most likely got selected because you were walking around with your head up your fourth point of contact. Real easy to jump someone who isn't paying attention. Much harder to jump someone who notices everything going on around him.

Situational awareness forestalls more incidents than you or I can ever know. Simply by keeping your head up and by being aware of your surroundings goes a long way towards "failing" the interview.

Seriously, threads like this and the 27 ninjas ( http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/WIMS.htm#fear ) responses would be a whole lot more amusing if those posting them weren't so deadly serious.

Your Professional Mall Ninja response has been noted and chuckled at, Byron.

For one preaching so fervently about "situational awareness", you've overlooked numerous possibilities yourself.

What "law of physics" says they have to DRIVE up behind you in a mall parking lot?

What if it's after dark, and they're crouched down behind parked vehicles, where they simply can't be seen?

What if they're crouched down inside a couple of PARKED cars after dark, where they simply can't be seen?

What if they're hidden in the back of a van, and there just happens to be fifteen other vans parked in that vicinity of the mall parking lot? Not being a professional mall ninja, I'm personally not able to keep a close eye on fifteen vans all at once in a dark parking lot.

It only takes a second for armed thugs to pile out of the back of a parked van. Not having "Mall Ninja X-Ray Night Vision" like yourself, I'm not able to see through van doors in the dark. And I don't have your "Spider Sense" to know which of the fifteen vans or 150 cars, has armed robbers in it or behind it.

Now if you'd like to discuss the topic in a rational, mature manner without your personal attacks and blatant condescension, Byron---please post some ACTUAL SUGGESTIONS of how to proceed in such a situation. Any mall ninja can preach about "situational awareness" and "avoidance", which most certainly are important, but not the end-all.

SWAT officers are highly trained and experienced in "situational awareness", yet quite a few of them get killed in the line of duty every year.

Whether SWAT officer or civilian, those who think they have so much "situational awareness" that harm can't possibly befall them, are usually the ones who end up in emergency surgery or a morgue.

 

[ar10]

But awareness does matter; or at least, what you do with the awareness matters. You saw the guys, but you left your windows down and let them approach. Your doors were unlocked. You had a horn to lean on. And you were still in your car, fully able to put it in reverse and leave, dangling bad guys or otherwise.

I was aware, very aware as a matter of fact. What hasn't been mentioned is that so called "feeling" turns time to 100 times faster than it really is. As far as backing out, I couldn't, I would have run down two kids. At that point in time they were still innocent bystanders whether I liked it or not. As far as my windows being down, Why not. I'm not that paranoid and still believe I still have that right. It was broad daylight in a busy parking lot in a very good part of the city.
The result was I did draw my gun. I did shove it right in the left eye of the kid on my side, as he jumped back I turned the gun on the other two who were in the process of getting into my truck.. And yes, all three ran. What wasn't brought up and what I didn't think about until I talked with my attorney was he asked me "did you see any weapons?, knife, gun, pipe?" I answered no. His response was very straight forward. I would be very hard put to prove my innocence in a court. Here's an armed adult shooting a young kid who had no weapon, and only asking for spare change. It makes one stop and think.

BTW: I didn't call the cops because I had no cell phone. I did try to chase one down who was driving on the main street but he lost me at the light. I did go home and called a friend of my who is also a full time cop in the city. He stated "that gun probably saved your life".

 

[springmom]

As far as my windows being down, Why not.

Maybe because of this...?

The white kid leaned on my door with his head in the window and asked me if I had any spare change, at the same time the two black kids were jerking the passenger side door open.

As for the "P" word...

I'm not that paranoid and still believe I still have that right. It was broad daylight in a busy parking lot in a very good part of the city.

You also have the right to go down into southwest Houston at 2 a.m. and walk down the street. No doubt about it. Doesn't mean there aren't wiser approaches. It is not paranoid to take precautions. And "good parts of the city" see crime all the time, as you experienced. As did I. If you don't take those kinds of precautions, you make it easier for the BG's to approach and get you in a compromised position.

Springmom

 

[Fred Fuller]

Nope. Sorry.

We're not going there.

If anyone wants to try this topic again, feel free...

lpl/nc

ETA: In response to questions about why I closed this thread:

For lack of a better word, it was descending into nattering, and not discussion. Members sniping at each other, in other words. Being needlessly provocative. Pushing buttons.

Too many threads on S&T lately have begun to sound like a back seat full of siblings on a long road trip.

So rather than let things progress (or rather, devolve) any further, to the point where members really do get provoked and actually say things I can't handle by merely editing or deleting the offending post, I elected to close the thread. I didn't want things to get any worse.

I already banned enough people today for one day...

Clearer??

lpl/nc