Stupid me. Tactical mistakes. Overall dumb behavior on my part.

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spacemanspiff: Sure thing. Why do you ask?

Josey: You're getting a little overboard there, to a bystander I'll bet it didn't look like anything other than a conversation, not even heated. I know you're trying to make me realize how serious this is, and I understand completely what you're saying. But just please tone down the drama.
 
No drama. A young man I knew killed a guy years ago. The dead guy is still dead. The young man I knew is still doing time in ISP. Life is a long time. A dis started the whole tragedy.
 
It's hard to learn from your mistakes while making excuses and explaining why they really weren't mistakes. No excuses, remember?

Saying you would rather get into a fistfight as an argument that you're a level-headed fellow who doesn't want to pull his gun is clear evidence of a missed point.

The point is not to favor one method of fighthing over trivial matters over another, but to avoid fighting for trivial reasons.

I am not a good fighter, but I've known a few. They have all told me one common piece of advice--the fight will be what it will be. Don't try to make it become what you want it to be, just be ready for whatever comes.

One application of that theory is to avoid what you think of as "just" one type of fight or another, because you don't really have any way of knowing what form the fight will take.

Are you sure the gun played no part in making you feel comfortable with the idea of teaching three "punks" a lesson? Are you sure you weren't drawn in just a bit by the kid's submissive behavior? There are people in the world who will draw you in that way on purpose because they have some agenda that requires that you be within reach. Think about it.
 
being from rural oklahoma i wave at every vehicle i meet on the road. i didn't realize it made me a punk. saddlebum
 
theres a couple of reasons i asked that question.

first of all, its evident that you have self esteem issues if you get in peoples faces for laughing at you. is your pride so fragile that you cant let stupid people slide off your back?

second, it was kind of a trick question, which there was no right answer to.
you answered "yes", which indicates that you would walk into danger on a whim.
had you answered "no", it would indicate all your bravado is inspired by the boomstick you carry.

theres a misconception being embedded into the minds of men in this day and age. the misconception is that each individual is special and deserving of respect without earning it. thus, when someone doesnt show this individual the respect they think they are entitled to, they try to punish the person or otherwise make them realize they did wrong.

lets consider another example, since yours has been beaten into the ground by the collective. out of boredom i wound up watching a couple episodes of 'the real world' on mtv. one of the guys was drunk and disorderly. he was gettng in peoples faces talking all kinds of smack and the police arrested him. sure he was drunk, but his true character was revealed: he couldnt stand people laughing at him or making fun of him. he tried to tell the cops who arrested him to go arrest the guys laughing at him.

had the police not been on the scene, he would most likely have gotten in a fight, all because his ego couldnt take being laughed at.

responsible gunowners realize that they must always have the cooler head. they must do everything in their power to de-escalate confrontations.
its okay to be laughed at.
its okay to take a punch.
its okay to look like the weaker one.

ESPECIALLY when you are armed.
 
Perhaps I could understand this...

...if WonderNine were posting this from the standpoint of "Learn from my mistake, and DON'T do what I did!!!"

[Moderator hat OFF]

But I don't gather that that is the full intent of WonderNine's post:

I think I handled it ok, but things could've gone bad and I was pretty stupid.
I don't understand this self-contradictory statement.

I happened to notice on my left three high school punks leaning on a red chevy cavalier about 50-75 yards away. I looked and one of them was waving at me. I kind of looked away then I did a double take and looked back and he's still standing their waving at me smiling acting like a general moron. Is this guy making fun of me? *** is his problem? Anyways he pretty well pissed me off.

So that's the offensive behavior? Waving?!? This resembles that scene in Taxi Driver where De Niro stands in front of a mirror with guns on, demanding, "You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? Then who the hell else are you talkin' to? You talkin' to me? Well I'm the only one here. ".

Consider: Most of us never give it a second thought when we see a police car. What are you doing that makes you assume that they've come to pick you up?

Anyways I'm riding down the trail, this is about a half hour later. I'm heading back from where I came from and I see a cop drive by me slowly. Of course I got a .32 on me in a front pocket holster which is not kosher as far as I know because I'm technically in a city park. And I'm thinking to myself, did these punks call the cops on me? That wouldn't have surprised me at all. And I thought oh my God I didn't even take a look at their license plate! OMG what if they said I had a gun! All kinds of fun thoughts racing through my head. But the cop drives right by without even looking at me. I ride back and the punks are long gone. I ride through the park back to my car and get out of their.[sic]


[Moderator hat BACK ON]
 
This post started out as a long, preachy, admonishing pile of crap, but all I've got to say is that you need to seriously reexamine your priorities if three "punks" (punks because they were hanging out in a park, as far as I can surmise), one of whom is waving at you, can stuff such a bug up your butt that you feel the need to turn back and get in their faces.

There are two quotes that fit here, one of which I have to paraphrase because I haven't read the Bible.

Jesus: Turn the other cheek.
When people put you down, even the most vicious [perceived] insults, just grin and bear it. Karma always comes back to bite you in the ass, and if it doesn't, someone bigger than you, with a shorter temper who's a lot more drunk, will do it for Karma when the aforementioned "punk" says the wrong thing to the wrong guy.

Heinlein: "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when a man's life may depend on his conduct."
You've heard the term "walking on eggshells"? If you're armed in public, in a social sense, you must always be walking on eggshells, and you must step lighter than everyone around you because you've chosen to take the responsibility of being armed. Aggression should be a foreign emotion. Indignance and insultedness must no longer exist, outwardly.

Remember, "Blessed are the meek."

~Slam_Fire
PS. I don't mean you have to be a "pansy" in any sense, but you must be secure enough in yourself that nothing but a direct, physical threat can bring about a response of violence, on your part.
 
WonderNine-

Let me try this approach, maybe we can make our point this way (if no one agreees with me, then I guess it becomes my point).

1. Ever see a Porsche 911 do 195mph? Ever see a Ferrari do 150?

I'm willing to bet, probably not.

Know why?

They have nothing to prove. They have the fastest cars out there. No one can beat them. They don't have to go fast. Most of the time that you see one of these beauts, they are in the middle lane doing a few over the speed limit like everyone else.

2. Yes, on occasion, you see a jackass (Ok, I'm a bit jealous), fly by.

When you carry a gun, you need to be car #1. You have nothing to prove.
You need to be humble, meek, and a pacifist.

Anything else, you become car #2. You stand out. Your peers (the other cars, so to speak), are way behind you. You are alone, and everyone notices you.

The only time that you can be car #2, is if you are in danger, and going to your full potential is the ONLY option. Past that, there is NO NEED to do anything but be careful.

If the situation escalated, and you had to shoot one of the punks. No, you got in a fist fight. The cop that you saw 1/2 later, was 1/2 early. The cop breaks up the scene. What is your defense? "He was waving at me"? Then you get searched? Then what? All of the sudden, you go from a gun carrier for personal protection, to someone that tried to mug a group of kids that were having a good time.

Ex-MADidImakeanysense?OrdoIneedsomesleephole
 
Art has said much - way better than me.

Two aspects here ... good that you have, in a sense, shared the episode - tho many disagree with your thinking and conclusions in certain respects.

I will tho, without trying to berate .... make yet again what is IMO the MOST critical and salient point of all - that this brings to light.

We ALL, to a man or woman ... if carrying (whether that be legal or not - and I'll resist further comment on that count) ... owe a HUGE sense of duty to practice absolute avoidance of trouble. To the extent even that we may feel ''loss of face'' ...... or even be called cowards.

If we carry the ''ultimate sanction'' ..... and heaven forbid have to use it - it must and can only be ''in extremis'' .... when the dice are loaded against us and all alternatives have dried up. I consider that anything which could blow up from insignificant into dangerous, must be avoided.

As I see it ... in this description ... you were under no threat (other than to the ego! :p ) ..... and so a returned wave, and maybe a toothy grin ... would have sufficed, even if the feeling of ridicule was strong.

Play it safe fella .... and wear thick skin ... cos there are always those around us who like to push our buttons but need ignored.:)
 
Not really to the point of this thread, but something for an overall view: My uncle had a way of quietly making a point that would send a full-of-himself kid go looking for his home rock and crawl under it.

"Stick your finger in a glass of water. Pull it out. Look at the size of the hole you left. That's how big you look to the rest of the world."

Art
 
I was beginning to think that this thread was turning into the "Anti-WonderNine brigade" since so much of my fan base showed up, but I realize my behavior generally pisses some of you guys off and I understand why. Believe me, I'm going to try my best not to be so "cowboy" while out CCWing in the future.

Gotta wonder how some of you guys would react though if someone across the street was whistling at your wife or calling her a fat *lut.
 
Gotta wonder how some of you guys would react though if someone across the street was whistling at your wife or calling her a fat *lut.

Well considering I am a sloppy looking 50 year old fat guy, and SWMBO is (IMHO) a rather cutie J apanese girl of 28 (that looks 21), I would grin to myself and think "eat your heart out losers"..

SWMBO would probably shoot them the bird and yell "Shineh, kornyaro gaijin" (Die, a**hole foreigner) but she dont carry a gun:)

WildgottawatchthemwomenAlaska
 
No precise answers here, dudes,

but I am wondering,

there are a lot of dudes,

who are a whole lotta wiser,

than me,

posting here,

so I gotta wonder,

if I still know the difference,

between my butt,

and a hole in the ground

yet still we must define the distance,

between truth and reality.
,
 
Man, and you jumped all over me for asking if I had the right to negate a dangerous situation.


Still, though, glad you and they came through unharmed.
 
"edited"

This reminds me of a thread in TFL (IIRC) were an anti was sayings things to the effect that she was afraid she would shoot someone if she got mad enough at them.

You need to think of these things ahead of time. And tell yourself that anger isn't a reason to use your gun. Also the gun doesn't let you act with more agression than normal; in fact, because of legal and ethical concerns you should use less aggression than normal in many everyday type situations.

You should keep the rule of three in mind (my name for it, it is based on my CCW instructor's version of Ayoob's triad) when using lethal force: 1) You (or innocent) must be in immediate threat of death or GRAVE bodily harm (Grave means more than a little oouchie or bruise) 2) No lesser means will work (ie leaving, less lethal force, etc) 3) You must be UNWILLING participant.

All three must be in effect for you to be justified in using lethal force.

When you are armed any confrontation you are in is a potentially lethal one. By bringing a gun to a confrontation you bring threat of immediate death to people your having a confrontation with.

Until this last Feb I worked as night manager at a Hotel. I carried there regularly. I dealt with many drunks and drug users (and some real cool people also, met a fairly high level Nosler employee there one night).

I suspect I was treated to most of the rude verbal comments you can think of, as are most LEOs, while on the job and armed.

I always treated people with respect even when they were cussing me out. And even when I had to call LEO and kick them out of the hotel. IF I cussed them out I did it later to friends or co workers.

This does many things. One it often solves minor problems without them growing into bigger problems. Also even drunks sometimes remember that you were polite but firm with them when they were being a stupid SOB. They will often apologize for their boorish behavior when sober. And are less likely to cause problems for you the next time they are drunk.

Also for a CCWing person, the fact that many people see you stay calm and polite while being called whatever could certainly help if you ever do NEED to shoot someone for self defense.

***
I think part of the reason this thread seemed like an "anti WonderNine brigade" is that your comments make you sound like someone who isn't fully prepared to carry in public.

HAve you ever been to any get togethers? TFL or THR or such? Do you have many friends that CCW?

MAny things are easier to show or discuss in person than over a web board. And how to handle yourself in public is one of those IMO.

I was at one TFL get together that was hosted in the country (outside city limits). Did a bit of shooting at the hosts farm, he had a small pit on his property he used for plinking.

One of his more distant neighbors was a retired LEO from out East and didn't like the gunfire from our little get together. Drove over intoxicated and complained to our host (who was also retired LEO).

He wasn't very polite and threatened to come over with his gun to make us stop shooting (He would have been very outgunned, we probably had the local SWAT team out gunned by more than a little). Our host pointed out that we weren't doing anything wrong (legal to shoot on private property outside city limits, BTW this is an open carry state) and sent him home.

Little while later sheriff duputy stopped by to see what was going on. Said he didn't see any unsafe shooting and left. HE didn't even take a doughnut with him :D
 
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Wondernine said:
Believe me, I'm going to try my best not to be so "cowboy" while out CCWing in the future.

Actually you are "carrying illegally" right now. Once you get your CWP permit, then you'll be CWP'ing....
 
A couple of Glamdring's comments seem to sum up the whole thread:

"You need to think of these things ahead of time."

Amen.

"And tell yourself that anger isn't a reason to use your gun. Also the gun doesn't let you act with more agression than normal; in fact, because of legal and ethical concerns you should use less aggression than normal in many everyday type situations."

Amen, again. Reminds me of that old C&W song, "The Winner". :)

Art
 
Tony B said:

IMO...ccw holders need to be meek......not weak mind you,but meek.....controlled power and confidence.....we have a greater responsability than your local yocal.....


Meekness = power under control.
That is the single attribute that I strive for in my life.

Well said, Tony.
 
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