Stupid question of the week: Hi Power trigger reset?

[1KPerDay]

I got an AIM surplus Israeli trade-in FN Hi Power a while back. Videos here if interested:

https://youtu.be/wXSeLTPlYdo
https://youtu.be/EOyvX1d0zHE

The initial troubles I had with slide locking open with one round in the mag have disappeared. I sent the original mag back to AIM for a swap and got some Mec-Gar 15-rounders as well.

My question is whether I should be able to feel any trigger reset on this pistol. I can't. It often makes me question whether I've had a malfunction if I shoot the Hi Power after shooting other pistols with definite resets. I've often felt and said that I don't "shoot the reset" or really care if there's a tactile/audible reset on pistols. However the fact that there is ZERO notification of trigger reset causes me to pause and almost want to check for a FTF... which tells me that I actually AM relying on the feel of the reset to some point at least.

More I shoot this pistol the more I like it. However it still feels a bit strange ergonomically. The upper part of the frame is so slim and the grip area is so short front to back that my thumbs really don't know what to do. The spur hammer prevents getting REALLY high on the grip, at least with my large, manly (fat) hands. If I lock my thumbs down it doesn't bite but doesn't feel right to me either. And I still feel like the trigger stings my finger a bit and the pistol recoils more than it should for a steel 9mm. Not unpleasant but back to back comparisons with berettas and SIGs tells me that the HP has a bit more flip, surprisingly. I have purchased the Wolff recoil spring tuning kit and settled on the 17 lb spring after trials and consultation with this forum.

Still, I really like this pistol. I think maybe a trigger replacement with a wider/flatter profile would help. And since my example came with the short/stiff thumb safety, I need to address that if I want to actually use it in competition (at least if I want to be competitive). I have removed the mag disconnect. The trigger pin took about 2130410 lbs of pressure in a vise with appropriate ram and spacers to break loose.

 

[drband]

My hipower has no discernible trigger reset "click."

 

[Mizar]

Hello. You should not feel the trigger reset - the design of the trigger group does not allow for one. With time and shooting your trigger finger will "learn" the needed travel for reset. The trigger should not slap your finger when firing either - something is out of spec here. I would start with looking for rough spots on the trigger lever and toggle lever, but I just can't imagine trigger slapping with that design.

C&S no bite commander hammer will allow you for higher grip, but the original spur hammer can be modified to suit you.

If you decide to change to wider trigger (it will be a C&S one, I can bet on that) be advised that those triggers have TWO fitting pads - one at the top front (over travel) and one at the lower back (pretravel).

For less muzzle flip a lighter then 17 lb. mainspring might be your answer. And a small radius FPS (good luck finding one).

May I suggest to purchase the Wolff Hi-Power service pack springs plus a two coil trigger spring? Changing the springs is a relatively straight forward job, even the hammer spring. No matter what horror stories some people tell about it you only need a small vise and a pair of small, cheap needle nose pliers with cable cutter slot to do it.

Best regards,
Boris

 

[1KPerDay]

If you decide to change to wider trigger (it will be a C&S one, I can bet on that)

I wouldn't bet on that after reading the reviews on Brownell's. Also the C&S one appears to still have a significant curve. I like the custom one with less curve. I've seen it on a couple HPs here.

Thanks for all the info.

 

[Mizar]

I wouldn't bet on that after reading the reviews on Brownell's

My bad - I thought so because from the various forums I read maybe some 90% of the people do change triggers with C&S ones. I checked the reviews on Brownells and would like to offer a couple of comments although I haven't worked on one, but nevertheless they are valid for the rest of the custom triggers (one way or another):

This trigger is a little tricky to install because there is no cut in the trigger for the trigger lever pivot to drop into.

Stock Mk III triggers don't have that cut also. I'm not certain, but I believe that the cut was not used since T-series Hi-Powers.

When installed, the trigger lever interferred with slide and required shortening trigger lever to install slide.

See my comment above about the two fitting pads. If one wants less pretravel on the trigger he must shorten the trigger lever and leave the raised pad on the back. There is no other way around. Other custom triggers have the same raised pad so you should expect the same condition with trigger lever protruding on top of the slide.

Trigger would trip hammer in dry fire test, but failed to trip hammer during live-fire.

Without actually seen this I believe that he shortened the trigger lever too much, or leave rough spots on the trigger lever joint thus not allowing it to reset fully. He does not explain the exact condition of the fail also and many times problems occur when some incompetent folks try to fit a part their way, fail to do it right and then blame the part and not themselves.

... when you install the trigger assembly, the tension from the trigger spring causes the trigger lever to cant sideways and tension itself against the frame. This causes the trigger not to recover correctly when tuned for a performance trigger pull...

On a Browning Hi-Power, the spring SHOULD tension the trigger lever against the frame - tension to the right and to the back of the trigger lever slot in the frame. This is the proper condition for it. Even if the slot in the trigger is so out of spec that it will allow the lever to cant 45 degrees before assembly, the trigger spring has no sufficient force to allow binding to the slide. Just not possible. Something else is wrong in that case.

I'm writing all of this because these exact problems are to be expected with almost any aftermarket trigger, even with some stock triggers. Hi-Power trigger group is unique by design, but once you understand how it operates it's a straight forward job to fit a new part, or alter an existing one. Just don't expect to accomplish a match grade trigger with only files and stones and some parts swapping. Without moving the toggle lever pivot hole to the back thus changing the lever ratios one should realistically expect about a 4.5 to 5 pound trigger. This is after mating sear and hammer surfaces and with stock hammer spring.

Best,
Boris

 

[larryh1108]

The trigger should not slap your finger when firing either - something is out of spec here. I would start with looking for rough spots on the trigger lever and toggle lever, but I just can't imagine trigger slapping with that design.

I totally disagree 100%. At one time I owned 6 different Hi Powers including the Inglis models, post Inglis but pre external extractors, pre-firing pin block and the latest, modern design with the firing pin block (flap on the sear lever). Every single Hi Power gave me a trigger slap. Mag disconnect on, off, didn't matter. It became painful when firing more than a couple of mags at a range session enough that to stop the sting I got used to taking my finger off the trigger after each shot (by pushing it forward to the trigger guard). I knew this was not the right way to shoot so I sold all but 1 (just to have one) and every now and then when I want to shoot it I get the reminder of why I sold them. I have XL, meaty fingers (size 14 ring finger) so maybe that has something to do with it but there is trigger slap with the BHP for guys with meaty paws.

 

[Mizar]

I don't think that hand (and finger) size should matter with that, but I still claim that this condition is not normal. A quick search revealed an interesting explanation from 1911 forum:

The numbness or stinging that is felt in the trigger finger is the bottom lug of the barrel foot hitting the top of the trigger in the area where the trigger pin goes through. The area on the trigger needs to be stoned down so the lug doesn't hit the trigger and the numbness/stinging will go away. You will see a bright area and peening on the "humps" where the pin goes through. Thats the area to concentrate on.

After some thought and inspecting my own pistol the truth revealed it's ugly face - this condition is possible and the lower lug can hit the trigger, or the trigger spring instead of the trigger itself. A man learns something new every day! Time to remind myself again - just because I didn't experience it does not mean it could not happen.

Best,
Boris

 

[larryh1108]

Boris, that is interesting. I will also check my lugs to see if this is the case for mine as well. If it is and I can "fix" it then my BHP will get some more range time because I like everything about them except the trigger slap.

 

[tipoc]

1Kperday,

I encourage you to go over to Stephen Camp's

www.hipowersandhandguns.com

From there you can read one of the best sources for information on the Hi-Power and order his books if you care to.

or here...http://hipowers-handguns.blogspot.com/

tipoc

 

[Dickl42]

I have a 1990 Israeli Police Browning Hi Power, serial number 245NM06591 whose sights appear to be movable in standard dovetails, but do not give any when I try and adjust. Anyone know for sure they aren't machined on and immoveable?

 

[1KPerDay]

Pics?

 

[RainDodger]

Good advice from Mizar... I have a significantly modified Hi-Power - you won't feel the reset, as others have also said. Also, getting a crisp trigger is manageable, but a lighter trigger is more difficult. I have settled for a slightly heavier trigger, with absolutely zero creep/movement before firing. I also recommend one of the Cylinder & Slide triggers. In my day, they called them "Combat Triggers"... not sure what they are now, but I think others have covered that well. The wider trigger shoe really helps with the "felt weight" of the trigger pull. That's all just my opinion of course.

 

[1KPerDay]

They are probably epoxied in place by the finish.

 

[tipoc]

The spur hammer prevents getting REALLY high on the grip, at least with my large, manly (fat) hands.

The hammer spur is serrated along the top for cocking. You'll notice that this makes a handy guide for shorting the length of the spur till it no longer bites you. A dremel and file work fine for this. Polish when done. Only cost is time.

I encourage you to shoot it as is for awhile to get used to the things that feel odd to you before beginning to swap out things. A trigger job always helps.

tipoc

 

[Mizar]

1KPerDay, I just watched your second video - how much higher do you want your shooting grip to be? Unless you make some heavy modifications on the beavertail I don't see how a different hammer profile would help. With your hands and that grip your hand may get pinched between the hammer and the slot of the frame, but that is relatively easy to solve - requires only a round file and some cold blue.

Best,
Boris

 

[1KPerDay]

It just feels weird, is all. One handed feels fine.

 

[scythefwd]

if you take your slide off and pull the trigger, that very very little tab that pushes on the lever in the slide.. the one that goes vertical when you put a mag in.. that going vertical when you let it slip back under the lever is the whole mass that resets.. IF you can feel it, especially if its in midst of recoil, then you have the most sensitive trigger finger ever. You wont hear it.. and the mass is almost nothing.