Suggestions for SHTF HD shotgun?

[basicblur]

Been thinking ‘bout getting a shotgun for HD, been doing some lurking around here, and have ‘bout gone from (thinking I wanted) a Remington 870 to getting a Mossberg 500 (my primary HD is and will remain pistols). Handled a few at the gun store yesterday, and decided that one with a full length stock is probably going to be too much gun for maneuvering around the house.
Originally didn’t think I’d want a shotgun with a pistol grip, but after deciding a full-length gun is probably going to be too long, I ran across the Mossberg Just In Case series (http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=28), which looks interesting. Methinks I’d rather have a 20 gage than 12, but looks like your options are severely limited if you go 20 gage. I also spoke to some folks that tell me everybody they know that replaced their stock with a pistol grip (12 gage) ended up putting their stock back on! I know the JIC series is probably a handful, but I’d probably use some of the reduced power loads for HD.

So…anybody have any experience with the JIC Mossbergs or their other 500 series in a similar configuration?
Got any other suggestions?
Options for something similar in a 20 gage?

I know squat ‘bout shotguns-last time I shot one was over 25 years ago (tried some Skeet with a Remington 1100). I recently viewed Massad Ayoob’s “Shoot To Live” DVD and was doing some research into 20 gage instead of 12 (based on the DVD), but darn if it doesn’t look like you’d have to build your own if you want a 20!

Thanks

 

[Green Lantern]

I've never shot a pistol-grip shotgun, though I've read plenty of advice against using one.

My HD shotty is an 870 with an 18" barrel. True, not the MOST easy thing to get around in tight spaces...

Maybe you (and I for that matter!) ought to look into a good FOLDING stock? Best of both worlds - compact for getting around, and shoulder support close at hand if you need it.

 

[Dave McCracken]

The 500 is a darn good choice. So is the 870,

That is if they are equipped to fire from the shoulder.

Shotguns equipped with only a PG work better in the movies than in the real world.

Folks that really know shotguns rarely own any without stocks.

And in The Temple Of The Shotgun Gods, upon an ancient tablet of stone t'is writ....

Get a shotgun that fits and run the heck out of it.....

As for a normal shotgun seeming too much gun, I'm a behemoth and can run a standard shotgun darn well inside. You can too. If you live close to MD I'll be glad to show you how.

 

[sm]

I would not buy a gun until I had actually gone out and shot some moving targets with one.

It is one thing to read about features, and to view features.
Then to actually handle various guns one to know if the gun fits them, they can reach and use safety ,trigger, forearm, and other features.

Shooting adds yet another dimension to all this.
My suggestion as I have suggested before, and will again is to NOT buy a shotgun until one has actually shot a variety,and have done so with seasoned shooters that know about gun fit to shooter.

Then buy a good used one, is preferred by on of the Big 4, and the Older guns are better, and can be had for less money.
Heck I'd rather pay the same money for a older one over a new one of same make and model.

Money needs to be invested in lessons and ammo, not accessories.

Now used and new guns, such as Combo guns, by Rem, Win, Ithaca and Mossberg come with a short barrel, and long barrel.
Short barrel needs to be a plain vanilla barrel with NO rifle ling.

One only needs a 2 3/4" chamber, so if a good used gun just like the one you shot, and everyone assisting agrees fits you, is found used , for a good price with 2 3/4" chambers, you will be fine.

Short barrels, are not mandatory, they do have their place, just history shows too many serious situations have been dealt with , with a longer barrel.

One can get a shorter barrel later on if need. Main thing is gun fit, lessons, and ammo, and quality range time, like patterning loads and getting to become one with the gun, keeping it running...etc.

Forget side saddles and mag extensions, learn to run a gun, take a class from Awerbuck, then ask Louie to assist in accessing your needs for where you are.

He might tell you to forget anything, except range time and finding a shorter barrel.
Oh, gun fit, he will speak of gun fit.


HTH

Steve

 

[XavierBreath]

My choice is a 12 gauge pump, with a wooden full stock and a corncob forend. I like a six round sidesaddle. I like an 18.5 inch barrel with a big brass bead. My preferred load is low recoil 00 buckshot.

I keep the guns low tech, cruiser ready, and plentiful. My preference is the Mossberg due to the location of the controls, and the shell lifter being up when a round is chambered. that makes replenishing the magazine easier. The Winchester 1200/1300 shoulders better for me. The Remington is more durable, but I don't think i need that kind of durability.

YRMV

 

[Threecard]

I've had the same Mossberg 500 for 21 years and haven't had problem one with it. It's a great gun, especially for the money.

 

[Javelin]

Tromix Saiga-12 would be my choice.

 

[basicblur]

As for a normal shotgun seeming too much gun, I'm a behemoth and can run a standard shotgun darn well inside.

I'm assuming by "run" you mean handle AFA length?
I'm a good sized fella myself and with a full length stock a shotgun (recoil) doesn't bother me-it's looking at the ones without a stock that have me scratching my head AFA recoil etc.
I'm pretty much stuck on no stock after walking through my house-got a lot of tight turns and narrow hallways.
Iff'n I can't come up with something short, I'm thinking I may have to give up on a shotgun for HD.
Guess I'll have to stick to the pistols and CAR-15!

 

[41magsnub]

Echoing the advice to get a normal shotgun and work from there. Skip the tacticool junk, just get a nice normal pump and get to know it and practice. If down the road you decide you really need the pistol grip and the other junk then knock yourself out, but not right out of the gate.

 

[41magsnub]

I'm pretty much stuck on no stock after walking through my house-got a lot of tight turns and narrow hallways.

Unless you literally live in a phone booth that is incorrect.

If in close quarters you don't really have to shoulder the gun. There are ways to maneuver a full sized gun in that situation.... it is not hard, try it, you will do it automatically.

 

[john1911]

You're gonna lose what, 8-9" going from a full stock to a pistol grip? If you have enough room to maneuver a handgun, you have enough room to maneuver a full stocked shotgun. A little practice, a little modification of your hold (if needed) and you're good to go.

 

[Rshooter]

No Pistolgrips

Basicblur, I own a Remington 870 with a pistol grip. I bought the shotgun because it was a law enforcement package with steel folding stock, pistol grip, rifle sights, magazine extension, and sling - all factory parts. Had this not been the case I would have never owned a pistol grip shotgun because I have handled and fired them before. After purchasing this shotgun I reminded myself why I will never own another pistol grip shotgun again unless I spend $129.99 on a Knoxx compensating grip.

The 500/590 series is a fine series of shotguns, I could never honestly recommend the just in case series unless you wish to spend another $129.99 on a knoxx pistol grip.

 

[sm]

Pistol Grip Shotguns were the issued shotguns for Armored Guards I assisted with in regard to learning to shoot, and do so from a Armored Car.
I mean we had a car to actually shoot out of.

I always started with a full stocked shotgun, with longer barrel, and light target loads.
I would then transitioned to heavier loads, working up to the issued 2 3/4" nine pellet 00 buckshot.

I then stuck the shorter barrels on these guns, and repeated.
Now I had folks in a Armored car, with 26" and 28" barrel shotguns.

Part of the lessons were getting into and maneuvering with a shotgun.
I kept this simple, depending on whom was sent, and level of experience, but I have removed trigger groups on totally new to shotgun folks, and have them just do everything around the joint with a shotgun with a longer barrel.

One deal, was watching muzzle and how to get around with something new to them.
Sometimes easier for me to double check, and stick a chamber flag, like a big peice of Nerf, and "I will break legs if that pc comes out and I find a round loaded".

Then we got to the PGO part. All the prior lessons were useful. Again it depended on experience of folks, if new or re-qual.

NObody liked the PGO, job said they had to learn, pass the qual and re-qual.

Now I tried, I really did, with a live demo, on using a full stock, shotgun in the car, and for some other uses/ job requirements Armored Car Folks do.

Training matter not equipment I kept stressing, and they said no.
I mean inside where the money is, plenty of open space?
"No".

I have along with many , used bone stock , long barreled shotguns for home and business use. I mean apts, condos, hotels, little homes, businesses, name it.
Folks still do.
There is a 28" plain barrel fixed mod choke in a diner, loaded, and I assure you them folks can get around with that gun!

Training, not equipment is the key.

 

[ZombiesAhead]

I suggest a full-stock pump-action 12 gauge. While the Mossberg 590 20" (which I own) is an excellent gun that holds 8+1 rounds, you will probably not need that much ammunition capacity.

I think a Mossberg 500 or 590 with an 18"/18.5" barrel and a slightly lower magazine capacity will be more maneuverable. Consider the Mossberg 500 Mariner.

 

[pablo45]

I like pistol grips. Too me they are nice and comfortable to handle. I have a Mossberg 500 with a pistol grip that rides with me everywhere. I enjoy shooting it and carrying it with me in the truck as well. It is just enough gun for any purpose.

If you do not think you will like the pistol grip, try out a pistol grip butt stock. I have some of them and they work awesome as well.

 

[hexidismal]

try out a pistol grip butt stock.

That would be my solution as well. First off, I agree that a basic pistol grip is probably not the best idea for HD purposes most users. To be fair though.. with a good amount of practice, some shooters can do quite well with them. And it DOES take lots of training and established muscle memory to make accurate "on demand" shots with a PGO shotgun. Unfortunately most users who choose PGO setups do not have that level of training/practice, and never will. I think a lot of purchasers of PGO setups are people who have the misconception that they only have to point a shotgun, not aim it. For skeet, sure..yeah that's basically true, but for close combat you gotta aim..hehe
Shotguns with a full stock can obviously be hard to move in close quarters at times. A previous poster mentioned that it doesn't have to be shouldered. Well.. thats true I guess, but if you're not going to shoulder it you might as well just have the pistol grip. Thats why I prefer a pistol grip with adjustable stock. Much like an AR15 adjustable stock setup. With the stock fully closed, its very short and easily maneuverable, but its just one quick easy pull if you have an open area available. Also, I can't speak for everybody but for me personally a pistol grip setup feels far less awkward and allows me to keep my body situated properly. I have long gangly arms though, and a standard rifle/shotgun grip when shouldered is always awkward for me and puts my wrist at a strange angle. Another advantage of the adjustable stock is that it can be quickly set for other users. Theres lots of good options.. you've got the knoxx specops recoil reducing adjusable stock for one. Recoil reduction is good too ! The one problem ive seen with this kind of setup is that the stock shoulder position can be is too high, and it makes aiming with a standard bead very difficult. These type of stocks are best used with some form of sights (I.E. ghostrings) or optics(I.E. Eotech). I personally believe a "combat" shotgun should have sights anyway. One solution though to use the bead sight with this type of stock setup is to get the "low" stock adapter from mesa tactical. Thats a better position for the stock, and you can use any adjustable AR stock and pistol grip setup you want.

 

[hamourkiller]

An 18" double gun is hard to beat for manuverability while retaining the stock for proper shooting. 3" # 1 Buck gives you 48 30 cal. pellets with two pulls of the trigger.

Whatever gun you choose, practice with it!

 

[Dave McCracken]

Blur, a walkthrough of Casa McC with an 870 TB with trap stock, 30" barrel and me showed that I needed to be RH from top floor to mainfloor and LH from there to the cellar.

Knowing how is crucial. Training is way more important then bellsnwhistles.

If a standard stock seems too long, the various Youth models and those with reduced LOPs for tactical use like the Hogue may work better.

And if the weapon may need to be used by any other person besides yourself, like an SO, the thing should be sized and fit to the smallest of you. It's way easier to use a stock on the short side than one too long.

And practice, practicel, practice....

 

[Fred Fuller]

I hope you'll excuse me for saying so, but someone (or several someones, the way things have been going lately) kicking in your door at oh dark hundred is a pretty darn good definition of S hitting TF in my book.

The first thing you need for HD is a plan- actually a couple or three plans, in case something goes wrong with Plan A. It's best if you can integrate HD plans with your other family emergency plans, like your fire evacuation plan, so everyone in the household is clear on what to do in emergencies.

Any HD Plan A that involves you arming up like Rambo (don't forget that headband while you're at it) and ninjatacticooly searching your house for the BGs... well, let's just say it leaves a little bit to be desired. A better idea by far is bunkering down someplace with good cover (cover hides you from view and is capable of soaking up incoming fire) in front of you and a "friendly" wall behind you (friendly= no doors, no windows) and waiting for trouble to come to you. It's good to have a phone handy so you (or your spouse) can call the cavalry, and it might be good if that phone was your cell, just in case the BGs cut the landline on the way in.

A way to remotely control lighting in the other part of the house or apartment might be a good idea too- the X-10 line of plug-in controls has been around for decades and works well. What you want is to have the door to your saferoom backlit while the saferoom itself is dark. In case the BGs pull your power too on the way in, power failure lighting elsewhere in the house might be a good idea to provide your backlight. There are plug-in power failure night lights available these days, in normal conditions they are night lights, when the power goes out a brighter battery operated power failure light comes on.

If you have kiddos and need to secure them, you will need to plan for movement to their room(s) to get them safely corraled. Securing family members in other rooms is IMHO the ONLY acceptable reason for moving when there are good indications you have intruders in your home. Best idea is to set up your destination room as your primary saferoom if that's the case, so you can get everyone under control and safely bunkered down behind cover.

I would STRONGLY suggest you take the NRA course on personal protection in the home- see the site at http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/basictraining.asp and use the search function there to see if there's a class available near you. I'd also recommend Louis Awerbuck's video Safe At Home as well- see http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1500 .

As to choosing a pistol over a shotgun, I'd say use what you're best with for HD. Personally I'd rather by far have a .730 (that's 12 gauge bore diameter) over even a .45. I'd rather have a 437.5 grain projectile or projectiles (one ounce) over even a 230 grain one (.45 ACP), and I'd rather have a 1600 FPS muzzle velocity over a .45's 800-900 FPS. And I can shoot ANY long gun better than I can ANY pistol I own.

But that's just me.

I also like to have a dog in the house as a self-portable prowler alarm. Having a good mutt in the home guarantees you won't have to go check out the 'things that go bump in the night' noises without knowing a bit more about what caused them. And, someone will always be glad to see you when you get home too. Of course that isn't an option for everyone, given living arrangements and lifestyles, but if it IS an option it's worth looking into.

We happen to believe in "using enough dog," so our woofer is a Brazilian Mastiff (aka Fila Brasileiro), but not everyone wants a 90-pound house dog with an instinctive dislike of anyone they didn't grow up knowing (if our neighbor, a handful of friends, our parents or our vet decide to break in, we're toast though). Any furball dustmop mutt that will bark at people they don't know will do for alarm purposes. They don't have to be to-the-death protective like Filas or some of the better known protective breeds, just appropriately noisy.

It matters less what shotgun you get than it does how well you can use it. Software (skill) trumps hardware. If you decide to use a shotgun for HD, buy a plain jane pumpgun with an 18-20" barrel for starters, and get someone who knows how to teach you how to FIGHT with it.

hth,

lpl/nc

 

[Green Lantern]

I think a Mossberg 500 or 590 with an 18"/18.5" barrel and a slightly lower magazine capacity will be more maneuverable. Consider the Mossberg 500 Mariner.

This is also a good point - my 870 is the 4+1 setup. I bought a mag extension, but have yet to install it. Having to remove the "dimples" in the mag tube is a big part of it....BUT I also noticed a difference in the balance of the gun when I just had the extension screwed on (but not 'workable' past 4 rounds in the mag)...

Apart from that, If something were to happen to the extension (say you hit it on something and it bends or falls off) - you're in some serious trouble, with your pump suddenly reduced to a single-shot!

I'll probably take those dimples out eventually (as I understand I can go back to the standard, 4+1 setup with relative ease), but it's not a big priority.

 

[41magsnub]

Should a sticky get created to the effect of "so you want to buy your first shotgun for HD"?

Might stop the thread redundancy.

 

[2TransAms]

You asked for our experience,so here you go: I had a 500 that I put dual pistol grips on. Thought it looked cool,shot it,and promptly put the stock back on.

It's been said that a pistol grip turns your shotgun into a giant pistol that,ironically,cannot be fired like a pistol. Very true.

 

[foghornl]

I tried the "Pistol Grip Only" setup.........ONCE.

It is how I got to be called "Rocky Raccoon" by my shooting budds for a couple of weeks....

We thought we would try out the PGO just for grins. With some light target/game loads..[1 Oz of #7-1/2 & #8 shot] not TOO hard to control. I thne put in some of my favorite HomeLand Security Loads in the PGO-equipped Maverick...3"Mag #4Buck...One of the guys threw a 'clay', and I forgot I had the PGO..Swung it up to take a wing shot.

BOOM!

"OW! ! ! ! *&*&*&*&* Quit it!" I screamed through a severely mooshed but not broken and profusely bleeding nose, complete with Instant Fat Lips and a couple of hours later, a matched pair of 'shiners'.

Yeah, the PGO looks cool, but use at own risk. I traded that pistol grip for a box of slugs.

 

[BozemanMT]

I use a pistol grip stock with a butt stock. (so it's a regular stock like an AR kinda). The reason that sold me was try calling 911 and holding a regular stocked shotgun on someone. It's almost impossible. The pistol grip helps with that. The pistol grip only is just a bad idea. it's impossible to shoot well when not under stress. Under some type of stress, forget it.

I agree completely with what someone wrote up above

As to choosing a pistol over a shotgun, I'd say use what you're best with for HD. Personally I'd rather by far have a .730 (that's 12 gauge bore diameter) over even a .45. I'd rather have a 437.5 grain projectile or projectiles (one ounce) over even a 230 grain one (.45 ACP), and I'd rather have a 1600 FPS muzzle velocity over a .45's 800-900 FPS. And I can shoot ANY long gun better than I can ANY pistol I own.

But that's just me.

That's the argument in a nutshell. (That's 6 times as much energy in a shotgun vs a pistol. it's velocity squared remember) I have pistols in good places to get too, but they are really to get me to my shotguns.

Also, another consideration no one has brought up is lights. A good light on the end of the magazine is an excellent tool in the home and something to consider.

 

[goon]

I got a nice 18" Mossy 500 a couple years back for about $149 OTD. I bought mine basically because I wanted something more effective than a handgun to keep at my apartment. I also wanted cheap because I didn't want to be out $800 for an AR if the place burned down or something.
Anyhow, mine is by far the best deal I have ever gotten on a gun. I have had positively no reliability issues with it and it shoots slugs within reasonable POA/POI out to about 70 yards with just the plain bead sight.
The pattern is a little loose with anything other than Federal loads but that doesn't worry me much - outside of 20 yards or so I'll be looking for a slug anyhow.
If they're all like mine, I'd suggest you buy two!

BTW - I like buckshot for indoor defense and I prefer #4 Federal tactical buck for my defensive load. It patterns well and the pellets are lighter so less likely to shoot clear through stuff I don't want to shoot through. But I love slugs! Even at the range you can just see the power coming out with such a huge projectile. A 12 gauge slug will drop anything I can imagine needing to stop. I can't imagine that a 20 gauge would be underpowered either though.