Super Redhawk 45 colt hot loads

[Texasgrillchef]

I have the Ruger Super Redhawk 454 Casull whoch of course allows 45 colt standard pressure, 45 colt 30k pressure rounds and of course 454 casull rounds.

Using the Western Powders manual i noticed the following as an example.

Using. 300gr Lead cast flat point bullet with Accurate Nitro 100NF your min/max powder loads are from 3.3 to 3.8 grains with the max giving about 13k psi. Well within the standard SAAMI pressures for 45 colt.

A 30k loading with the exact same powder and projectile gives you a loading of 5.5 to 6.5 grains with the max loading giving you about 29k psi.

My educated guess and logic is that if i have a load between 3.8 grains and 5.5 grains (For use in my Super Redhawk) that it would still be safe but would give pressures greater then 13k and well below 29k since 5.5 is 1 full grain below the max of 6.5 which gives 29k psi?

What i have already worked up to tried and test fired with success is 6.5 grains.

So with that being the case loading with 5 grains should be ok, and be a lighter load. But only for this gun and should not use with my other 45 colts.

Good or bad logic???

Which brings me the point of what logic did they have for choosing 5.5 grains as the low end of a high pressure load instead of 5 grains? Or even 4.5 grains. Since any gun that can safely fire the 30k loads can safely fire the 14k loads?

 

[Texasgrillchef]

BTW havent yet reloaded any 454 yet. Need to get the dies first! Lol

 

[Walkalong]

Follow load data, and use slow powders for high pressure/high velocity loads. I would stay away from fast powders for anything more than standard .45 Colt pressure loads.

Which brings me the point of what logic did they have for choosing 5.5 grains as the low end of a high pressure load instead of 5 grains? Or even 4.5 grains. Since any gun that can safely fire the 30k loads can safely fire the 14k loads?

Pressure spikes with a fast powder at pressures it isn't suitable for? Better powders for going past that?

Be safe, have fun.

 

[Varminterror]

Many things in the world can “work,” but many things which work still do not “work well.”

In this particular case, your logic that the span between these two particular published “safe” data sets is also “safe” might not be incorrect, but rather there is fault in the logic which lead you to select a poor powder for this application.

There aren’t many powders worse than Accurate Nitro 100 for Tier 3 Ruger Only, 300grn 45 colt loads. Just a bad powder choice for the application - note, it’s one of the fastest powders in the world, the fastest they make, and the fastest they list for the particular cartridge. Ruger-Only, high pressure, heavy bullet loads aren’t the place for a fast burning powder. While it might be an acceptable choice for light plinking loads with the lighter bullets in 45colt (wouldn’t be my first choice there either), it certainly doesn’t belong in a 30kpsi 300grn bullet load.

Data is data. You’re likely expecting too much of the “logic” put into selections made by these powder and bullet manufacturers. Some manuals are better than others, for example, the Lee manual is only copied data with no internal validation, whereas Hornady pressure tests for themselves all of their published data. In general, you won’t see starting data for most powders reported to be less than 15% below starting. The job of these providers is to publish safe data for typical desires by their customers, without producing a book 12” thick. For example, there are a great number of powders which have been tested which are not included in the manuals, but can be requested. Even a great number of cartridges are not included in the manuals, but again, the data is readily available upon request. Manufacturers don’t publish everything they have ever tested - on a Venn Diagram basis - what they have tested is a huge circle, fully within that is a smaller circle of what they have proven to be safe, and further fully within that is a smaller circle of what they publish, based on what data they expect reloaders want and need based on relatively common applications. The logical step would have been to call them and ask whether they have pressure data between the two standard Tiers, and ask their opinion on using such a fast powder for this application.

What you’re describing is largely a more dangerous space of “handloading,” rather than simply “reloading.” You’re always loading at your own risk, but any time you go outside of reloading manual data, you’re assuming additional risk. In this particular case, your risk is likely low. But what you might not have considered is the case fill and position sensitivity of the powder - the entire 14kpsi data set might be position sensitive, putting even the published data at risk. I don’t use Nitro 100 for big revolver cases, so I don’t know if it is position sensitive or not, but it’s rather common. Even if you don’t get squibs, there could be a risk of inconsistent burn, detracting from the efficacy of the load for whatever application you need a Ruger Only 300grn 45colt load.

Personally, I’d drop Nitro 100 and pick a more suitable powder (which is to say, for my 300grn 45colt loads in my own revolvers, I don’t and would not use Nitro 100).

 

[ATLDave]

Two responses:

1) Walk' and Varmint' are correct that fast powders are really not the best choice for magnum-level rounds. There's just all kinds of stuff that can easily go terribly wrong, plus you won't match the overall ballistic performance available from slower powders.
2) You have noticed something that a lot of loaders miss - that the start charge for some cartridges is above the max charge for some sister cartridges. You can find examples of this in 10mm vs. 40 S&W data, or almost any of the magnum-vs-non-magnum revolver cartridges. This reflects that, with most powders, the start charge is a start charge.... not an actual minimum charge. You are correct that a load doesn't suddenly stop being safe at X-.1 grains and then magically become safe again at X-.7 grains.

Pick a better powder. And then feel free to work, carefully, in the space between the various power levels - unless you've got something that is very hard to ignite, like H110.

 

[Rule3]

Why in the powder world would you pick Nitro out of all the other powders suitable for 45 Colt??

https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings

 

[murf]

bad logic if your "other" gun is a ruger blackhawk.

logic without common sense is useless.

experience in handloading will answer that last question of yours. we all have to start somewhere when working up a load. if we are aiming @ 30kps, starting your work-up ten percent lower is a good "standard" that everyone can follow. in this case you can start at 3.3 grains and work up and nothing untoward will happen, imo (I base this suggestion on common sense).

luck,

murf

 

[Varminterror]

bad logic if your "other" gun is a ruger blackhawk.

Point of clarification here: The 30,000psi Tier 3 Ruger-Only standard was developed using the Ruger Blackhawks, not for the Super Redhawk 454casull. As such, the 30,000psi Tier 3 Ruger Only load data described here has been developed for and proven safe for the Blackhawk.

The 454casull Super Redhawk is designed for SAAMI standard 65,000psi ammunition, such it can handle more than twice the pressure of the Tier 3, 30kpsi Ruger-Only load data discussed here. These are expected to be proof tested per Ruger’s standard protocols at 2x SAAMI MAP, such they’re not destroyed at over 100kpsi.

Destructive testing has proven the Ruger Redhawk to be able to withstand regular use of 50,000psi loads - in other words, the Redhawks will withstand far more than the 30,000psi data discussed here.

The only 45 colts Ruger makes which cannot use 30,000psi Tier 3 Ruger-Only load data are the New Vaquero and Flattop Blackhawks, built on the mid-sized frame. Tier 2 Ruger-only loads have been developed for these revolvers, which top out at 21,000psi.

 

[murf]

Using the Western Powders manual i noticed the following as an example.

this data uses a 45 colt case. it doesn't apply when using a 454 casull case. downloading a 454 casull case should be a separate, and necessary, discussion.

fyi,

murf

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Personally, I’d drop Nitro 100 and pick a more suitable powder (which is to say, for my 300grn 45colt loads in my own revolvers, I don’t and would not use Nitro 100).

I used a powder that i had on hand and was available at the time that i saw data on for all three loads for the same projectile and both the 45 colt case and casull case. I got a 4lbs of this powder free So thought I would use it.

For simplicity i would like to use the same powder for all three loads, 14k, 30k and Casull loads.

I like to use the lighter and medium loads for shooting paper targets, and the heavier ones (30k and Casull) for shooting fruit/veggies and other fun targets, the casull round is the only one that works well with Tannerite. as well as for self-defense against dangerous animals when i am out in Nature doing outdoor activities in the middle of nowhere!
So...
Which powder do you recommend? I also have accurate #5 alliant 2400 available too.?

 

[murf]

two out of three ain't bad! casull loads need h110 (and a magnum primer). imo, of course.

murf

 

[Walkalong]

For simplicity i would like to use the same powder for all three loads, 14k, 30k and Casull loads.

I would highly recommend against using the Nitro 100 for tier 2 & 3 .45 Colt loads. Powder is easy to get and cheap enough not to use a powder not well suited to the task. You are already "off the grid" just a bit loading for those.

Be careful out there.

Which powder do you recommend? I also have accurate #5 alliant 2400 available too.?

Those are much better suited, and specifically, the AA # 5 for Tier 2 and the 2400 for Tier 3, both of which should do pretty well for those two tasks.

Many years ago I loaded Ruger Only .45 Colt for a Blackhawk using W-296.

 

[Rule3]

I used a powder that i had on hand and was available at the time that i saw data on for all three loads for the same projectile and both the 45 colt case and casull case. I got a 4lbs of this powder free So thought I would use it.

For simplicity i would like to use the same powder for all three loads, 14k, 30k and Casull loads.

I like to use the lighter and medium loads for shooting paper targets, and the heavier ones (30k and Casull) for shooting fruit/veggies and other fun targets, the casull round is the only one that works well with Tannerite. as well as for self-defense against dangerous animals when i am out in Nature doing outdoor activities in the middle of nowhere!
So...
Which powder do you recommend? I also have accurate #5 alliant 2400 available too.?

It would be best for you to do some "homework" research on powder burn speed and what calibers do best with fast vs slow burning powders.

ie: why are rifle powders slow burning vs most handgun? Why are magnum handguns powders slower than other handgun powders? Most of this can be found in any reloading manual(s)

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf

 

[ATLDave]

For simplicity i would like to use the same powder for all three loads, 14k, 30k and Casull loads.

For simplicity’s sake, one could try to feed one’s cow, pet dog, and child the same feed.

For simplicity’s sake, one could put the same fuel in the family sedan, the diesel pickup, and the gulf stream jet.

For simplicity’s sake, doctors could prescribe the same meds to cardiac, cancer, and pneumonia patients.

Different kinds of food, fuel, and medicine exist for a reason. Similarly, there are reasons that a single manufacturer will offer a variety of pistol powders with various characteristics.

 

[Varminterror]

For simplicity’s sake, one could try to feed one’s cow, pet dog, and child the same feed.

For simplicity’s sake, one could put the same fuel in the family sedan, the diesel pickup, and the gulf stream jet.

For simplicity’s sake, doctors could prescribe the same meds to cardiac, cancer, and pneumonia patients.

Different kinds of food, fuel, and medicine exist for a reason. Similarly, there are reasons that a single manufacturer will offer a variety of pistol powders with various characteristics.

... seems like something I would say! So yeah, this, all of this...

 

[ATLDave]

... seems like something I would say! So yeah, this, all of this...

I will grant that the plan of using super fast/dense powder for 454 loads and cowboy loads alike does offer some radical simplification of the supply logistics. Beginning at implementation, the loaders only has to stock one powder. When they eventually blow up their gun, things get even simpler, as they no longer need projectiles, brass, or primers for it, either. Soon, a zen-like state of non-attachment is attained.

 

[Rule3]

Trailboss is good for everything and is a hair tonic as well. Smells like Cowboy Farts.

 

[Jack B.]

There are somewhere around 70 powders made that are suitable for pistols. For small caliber with light weight bullets to large magnums with heavy bullets. There is a reason for this. Consult your manuals for the caliber and gun you are loading for and stick with that info and you won't hurt yourself , someone else or your gun. Don't guess. All of the powder makers make an appropriate power for almost any type of handloading. I'm sure just about anyone can find the proper powder if they try.

 

[Varminterror]

I used a powder that i had on hand and was available at the time that i saw data on for all three loads for the same projectile and both the 45 colt case and casull case.

Sometimes when I take the trash out to the dumpster, my flip flops aren’t near the door, but my wife’s are there, so I wear them. Many things can work, but a great many things which work, do not work well. My size 10.5 feet hang over her women’s size 8 flip flops everywhere.

The fact data exists does not mean the powder is a good choice for the application.

I got a 4lbs of this powder free So thought I would use it.

I can appreciate the sentiment of utility, but if someone gave you a t shirt in child’s size small for free, would you make a pair of underwear from it just to say you used it?

For simplicity i would like to use the same powder for all three loads, 14k, 30k and Casull loads.

As someone who claims to be educated in chemistry and physics, I expect you might appreciate the fact progressive powders will behave differently under different pressure conditions, such the optimal powder choice for one pressure standard would not remain optimal or another.

I also expect you’ll appreciate the paradigm such using chemicals and products in ways they were not designed to be used is often inadvisable.

In this case, you have a powder which was designed for and is best suited for shotshell loading. It has been tested for some pistol applications. But again, the fact the data exists does not mean it is proper for use in your high pressure, higher performance application. As others have mentioned, as have I, there’s potential you might run into position sensitivity or erratic combustion with such low charge weights in such large cases at such high pressures, especially behind such heavy bullets.

It can be done, but that simple fact doesn’t mean it should be done. Minivans are just fine for grocery getters, but they make pretty poor drag racers.

Which powder do you recommend? I also have accurate #5 alliant 2400 available too.?

As @Walkalong mentioned above: of the powders you claim to have at hand, AA#5 will be more suitable for your Tier 3 45 colt loads, and 2400 would be better for your 454casull loads.

But doing so, you’ll be giving up some performance. 2400 isn’t a “bad” choice for 454casull like Nitro 100NF, but H110/W296 (same powder, different label) is a better choice. Despite the high blast and flash, H110/W296 tends to give the best accuracy and highest velocity potential over the other conventional magnum revolver powders, without the extreme heat and forcing cone erosion issues of some other options which might run faster still.

 

[Varminterror]

Trailboss is good for everything and is a hair tonic as well. Smells like Cowboy Farts.

I appreciate the satire, but for our learning newbie, Trailboss isn’t appropriate for 1650fps, 65,000psi, 300grn 454 casull loads. I’d have to dump some to be sure, but I’d venture you can’t get enough Trailboss into a 45colt case to reach Tier 3 30,000psi Ruger only loads under a 300grn bullet. It’s big and fluffy, so it fills big cases and eliminates position sensitivity, but it’s fast burning and yields exceptionally low velocities. I also expect we’re talking all jacketed bullets, where Trailboss typically isn’t recommended.

 

[Rule3]

I appreciate the satire, but for our learning newbie, Trailboss isn’t appropriate for 1650fps, 65,000psi, 300grn 454 casull loads. I’d have to dump some to be sure, but I’d venture you can’t get enough Trailboss into a 45colt case to reach Tier 3 30,000psi Ruger only loads under a 300grn bullet. It’s big and fluffy, so it fills big cases and eliminates position sensitivity, but it’s fast burning and yields exceptionally low velocities. I also expect we’re talking all jacketed bullets, where Trailboss typically isn’t recommended.

No it certainly isn't. (its slower than Nitro) But he wants one powder for all and little chance of hurting himself and probably should not be playing with Tier 3 loads yet.

Kinda like the yearly warning that fireworks are dangerous.

 

[murf]

I like to use the lighter and medium loads for shooting paper targets

you won't like that "medium" load for shooting paper targets. that load will probably become your "heavy" load. the 14k load, while still stout, will be the one you can shoot all day and will be good for paper punching.

luck,

murf

 

[WrongHanded]

Lots of knowledge and good advice for you @Texasgrillchef , different powders for different applications. I've only been loading for a couple years, but I have experimented (with applicable load data) enough with different powders to see a huge benefit in matching powders to loads.

Were you to experiment with the Alliant 2400 you already have (using load data of course), you will quickly see that whilst it's capable of a wide range of use, it has a sweet spot. It's the powder I've used the most, and seeing the positive and negative results of it with various loads is one of the things that convinced me to diversify.

 

[Captcurt]

This is off the top of my head and I will have to check my notes, but I believe that I used IMR-4227 with 300 gr XTP's in my Super Blackhawk. Did a good job on an Ozark doe.

 

[Varminterror]

This is off the top of my head and I will have to check my notes, but I believe that I used IMR-4227 with 300 gr XTP's in my Super Blackhawk. Did a good job on an Ozark doe.

You likely did, and it likely did. For Ruger Only 45 colt, standard magnum powders like 4227, 2400, and H110/W296 are standard fodder.