Suppressor for air rifles

[Mousegun]

The worst thing that ever happened to air guns is You Tube and Face Thing as well as any other social media one can think of, just like I am doing now.

Air guns are becoming more main stream than ever and with that comes the egotists that want to show the world what they got. They make videos of their 30 cal. air rifle blasting the heck out of stuff and talk about how powerful it is.

Some day soon, some uninformed lib congress critter is going to catch wind of all this and drop one on us from the floor of congress. The last thing we want is for the feds to get involved and make air guns firearms. There are enough states that did that already.

I own a beautiful HW97 because a friend was seen shooting it in his perfectly safe, large area, back yard in New Jersey. That gun is a firearm in that draconian hell hole and he had to sell the gun. He also could have gone to jail had it not been for the sensible state trooper that came to visit.

As far as lead and dust collectors go, it seems to be a state thing so far. Even one of the best known suppliers of air guns (Airguns of Arizona) is careful about them. When I bought my Daystate Wolverine "R", they forgot to send the LDC that was shown in the ad picture with it. Instead of just sending one, they sent an entire barrel shroud with the LDC attached to be sure that no potential problem could be had. That was a responsible thing to do and a means of protecting our sport.

Just one situation can change all of this. In lieu of dealing with the individual, it is much easier for our "Goment" to make a blanket law that kills it for us all just in case anyone else may, at some future time, did the same thing the one transgressor did.

 

[fpgt72]

The worst thing that ever happened to air guns is You Tube and Face Thing as well as any other social media one can think of, just like I am doing now.

Air guns are becoming more main stream than ever and with that comes the egotists that want to show the world what they got. They make videos of their 30 cal. air rifle blasting the heck out of stuff and talk about how powerful it is.

Some day soon, some uninformed lib congress critter is going to catch wind of all this and drop one on us from the floor of congress. The last thing we want is for the feds to get involved and make air guns firearms. There are enough states that did that already.

I own a beautiful HW97 because a friend was seen shooting it in his perfectly safe, large area, back yard in New Jersey. That gun is a firearm in that draconian hell hole and he had to sell the gun. He also could have gone to jail had it not been for the sensible state trooper that came to visit.

As far as lead and dust collectors go, it seems to be a state thing so far. Even one of the best known suppliers of air guns (Airguns of Arizona) is careful about them. When I bought my Daystate Wolverine "R", they forgot to send the LDC that was shown in the ad picture with it. Instead of just sending one, they sent an entire barrel shroud with the LDC attached to be sure that no potential problem could be had. That was a responsible thing to do and a means of protecting our sport.

Just one situation can change all of this. In lieu of dealing with the individual, it is much easier for our "Goment" to make a blanket law that kills it for us all just in case anyone else may, at some future time, did the same thing the one transgressor did.

You are so spot on.

Really I see two streams of thought on this.....and it really goes down the path of just how long you have been playing with "adult air rifles".

I started shooting "big" spring guns in the early 90's. so I fall into that old guy path...and think that it is not a matter of if, but when.

The "newer" people to the sport seem to think to heck with it all, and think the guberment will never mess with them.....yea right.

It is also the newer people that really have no idea of the power these guns have.....they are also flat stupid. Well it ain't my 3006 so I can shoot it in my backyard with no kind of back stop....it is just a BB gun. Ahh nope. These are also the people that love to post up videos of them blowing apart a watermelon at 100 yards with their new 50 cal "BB" gun.

Really gets me on my high horse.

 

[Gadsden2A]

The feds are never going to regulate airguns. It will be the states.

 

[fpgt72]

The feds are never going to regulate airguns. It will be the states.

And they will never mandate serial numbers on 22's, make it to where there are no more "new" full auto guns, make the speed limit 55, make you get a lic to play with your toy RC helicopter....keep with that thinking, and wonder what the heck just happened.

Now I do agree with you like the Roe v Wade thing it will start at the states and work its way up the chain over many years, but in time they will have to make a change to the law of the land.

When you have sub $800 50 cal rifles that are hitting with 700 ftlbs of energy.....and are repeaters....how long do you think it will be before someone does something stupid with one and the massive heat that comes down will make your head spin.....thinking that the guberment will not look into this is naive at best.

 

[Gadsden2A]

Many crimes have been committed with black powder guns. The federal government has never attempted to regulate them. Don't see it happening to airguns. If I wanted to, I could pull out my credit card, get on the internet and order a short barrel shotgun(black powder) from a place like cabela's or say GunBroker.com. Even a .44 cal revolver, or a 58 cal long gun that puts out 1500fpe. UPS will deliver it right to my house with no background check or FFL. Perfectly legal. Black powder guns are not considered firearms by the feds. The GCA is 51 years old. If they haven't attempted to regulate them yet, I don't think they're going to. If they haven't regulated black powder by now, I don't see them regulating airguns anytime in the foreseeable future.

 

[Mousegun]

Things are a changin' fast and if a certain party takes control again with some of the winners that have come aboard, anything goes.

There is a fair share that would like to see America disarmed.

Keep an eye open over your shoulders boyz.

 

[JohnKSa]

Many crimes have been committed with black powder guns. The federal government has never attempted to regulate them.

I don't know how many crimes have been committed with black powder guns, but it is true that the federal government doesn't seem to be interested in regulating them.

In fact, (and for the same reasons that apply to airguns) you can now legally buy integrally suppressed black powder guns through the mail.

https://www.brownells.com/firearms/...rally-suppressed-muzzleloader-prod110309.aspx

 

[fpgt72]

Many crimes have been committed with black powder guns. The federal government has never attempted to regulate them. Don't see it happening to airguns. If I wanted to, I could pull out my credit card, get on the internet and order a short barrel shotgun(black powder) from a place like cabela's or say GunBroker.com. Even a .44 cal revolver, or a 58 cal long gun that puts out 1500fpe. UPS will deliver it right to my house with no background check or FFL. Perfectly legal. Black powder guns are not considered firearms by the feds. The GCA is 51 years old. If they haven't attempted to regulate them yet, I don't think they're going to. If they haven't regulated black powder by now, I don't see them regulating airguns anytime in the foreseeable future.

It is the law it does not have to make sense.

Look at the world of C&R....I can have an auto loading rifle brought to my house...no worries. I can do a FTF transfer and we never change even our names.

Looking at how things are now means NOTHING.

What you need to do is look at what is suggested by both sides.....then follow those out all the way....this is what you can see happening.

 

[Gadsden2A]

Firearms are regulated under the GCA and the NFA. Assault rifles, bump stocks, semi automatics, machine guns, short barrel shotguns and rifles, and every other FIREARM falls under the purview of those two Acts of Congress. Black powder weapons and airguns are not found in either of those Acts. Except that maybe black powder weapons are specifically EXEMPT from the ACT. There's no mention of airguns in the GCA. The GCA is where the federal codes regulating firearms originate from. It would take an act of Congress to pass legislation to regulate airguns. I'm sorry, but I do not see that happening in my lifetime and I would gladly take any wager on that. I guess the sky could fall tomorrow, but I'm banking that it will not. Not because it isn't falling right now, but because it hasn't fallen yet in the 55 years that I've been alive. In the same way, the federal government has not made any attempt to regulate black powder weapons since the passing of the GCA. If a HALF OF A CENTURY has gone by and they have yet to regulate black powder, I think it's safe to assume that they're not going to do it in the near future. And as for suppressors, I don't think the feds feel the same about them today as they did back in the days of gangsters. Same with short barrel shotguns. Why haven't they passed legislation to ban the Shockwave? There is no doubt an assault on the Second Amendment and gun rights, but to think that people posting on forums about air guns with suppressors is going to lead to airguns being regulated as firearms is silly. At least as far as the feds are concerned. Like I said in the beginning, it is going to be the states that regulate airguns, not the Feds.

 

[fpgt72]

Because they don't setup new laws do they...things never change

 

[Gadsden2A]

Maybe you don't understand the process that it takes to 'set up' a new federal law.

 

[Gadsden2A]

I gave a pretty good detailed and fact-based argument as to why it is highly improbable that the federal government will be regulating airguns anytime soon, and you come back with-

'it might happen'. Good job.

 

[fpgt72]

Maybe you don't understand the process that it takes to 'set up' a new federal law.

I watched it very clear when they hit the RC community a while back.

Perhaps you don't understand just how fast it can happen, how one event can get something moving so fast that no matter how flat stupid the resolution is, there is no stopping it.

Rest assured it will take one...as in 1....as in ONE event with a "silenced" air rifle and the world will start changing.

And if we are going to play a what if game.

You have a guy sitting on a hill, 500 yards away with a very top shelf silenced air rifle, small buddy bottle, and two mags of 5 rounds each.....all looking at a mall parking lot through glass that costs a third of the rifle.

Bad things happen the good guys win and find this is the only weapon.

If you think laws of the land are not going to change your head is so far in the sand you are talking to china.

And sorry if I am comming across as snarky....just they way I am.

 

[Gadsden2A]

I watched it very clear when they hit the RC community a while back.

Perhaps you don't understand just how fast it can happen, how one event can get something moving so fast that no matter how flat stupid the resolution is, there is no stopping it.

Rest assured it will take one...as in 1....as in ONE event with a "silenced" air rifle and the world will start changing.

And if we are going to play a what if game.

You have a guy sitting on a hill, 500 yards away with a very top shelf silenced air rifle, small buddy bottle, and two mags of 5 rounds each.....all looking at a mall parking lot through glass that costs a third of the rifle.

Bad things happen the good guys win and find this is the only weapon.

If you think laws of the land are not going to change your head is so far in the sand you are talking to china.

And sorry if I am comming across as snarky....just they way I am.

No offense taken. I actually appreciate snarkiness. That gives me the freedom to administer it. First of all, you have completely twisted the context of this conversation. YOU SAID mousegun was spot on when he said the people posting their airgun videos on YouTube and Facebook would lead to airguns being regulated as firearms. I SAID the feds would never regulate airguns. Now you throw a one-off shooting event into the mix. It was never about that. Regarding people shooting watermelons with their airguns and posting videos- some of the most popular YouTubers like Hickok45 and Demolition Ranch have shot everything possible with every gun possible and made a video about it. Does that not get you on your high horse? No problem with that? And with videos like that so popular, would you really expect people with high powered air guns not to do the same? That's silly. I normally don't play the 'what if' game, but in this instance I will entertain you. First of all, do you have any idea what the holdover is on an air rifle shot from 500 yards? The most powerful PCP air rifles are designed to throw projectiles at subsonic speeds. 950fps is the ideal velocity. That puts the hold over for a 500 yard shot somewhere in the vicinity of 10 ft. Not very practical or realistic. Or probable for that matter. A slingshot with .454 round balls would be just as effective from the roof of a condo. Also, if somebody happened to commit a public shooting with an air gun and a silencer, it would be the airgun itself, not the silencer, that would bring change. So I will reiterate my original statement. Posting videos on YouTube of airguns with silencers is NOT going to lead to federal regulations on airguns. Ever. A public shooting with an air gun would probably lead too much stricter regulation in the state that the shooting happened, and then there would be a chain reaction and other states would follow. I doubt it would be the Fed. My head has never been in the sand. It is usually between two pages of a book or in front of a monitor, trying to gain knowledge. OTH, navigating through the baseless tinfoil hat nonsense that permeates the internet is a PIA.

 

[fpgt72]

We are just going to have to agree to disagree....

I see real GUNZ in a different area at present then air powered lead tossers......However onec that "one off shooting event" happens the wheels are going to come off the wagon. The difference between the sling shot and the air rifle is skill, and range for the two biggies.

In my experience people that work hard at something have a much greater respect and displine then those that get it handed to them easy.....back to the RC thing, everything was fine, no one cared till it all got very easy and there was zero skill required.....after technology brought us to that point we had idiots with little buy in flying them at airliners.....now it does not matter if you spend 8 months in your basement with snow on the ground building that perfect P40 or you are an idiot 15 year old buying a flying toy at walmart, they are all the same in the eyes of the guberment (not exactly but I think I make my point)

Same goes for air guns, years and years you cock, pump and shoot one at a time....you are maxing out at 30 ish grains at 900 ish FPS and you have to have real skill to hit something at 50 yards with that.....enter PCP, zero skill 400 grain "bullets" flying at the same speed and killing every game animal in the US. It takes no practice to shoot this well.....you are set. And you are hitting with the FPE of center fire rifle cartridges. That said do you really think that the second something goes sideways the nose of the guberment will not get into the entire air gun world.

I do, because so many think the guberment is here to protect ourselves from ourselves.....heck look around the world in england they arrested a guy for having a butter knife in his car.....you will think that is there and this is here, but in looking at some of our current crop of up and coming political folk....and some that need to hang it up....can you really say they don't look to europe and say....we need to do this.

I might be glass half empty....and I really am that kind of person......but I would put a $100 on the table and say that by the time my grand kid is out of......well lets say 30, all of this will be very different, I would not doubt on 12fpe is the max for air guns....and oddly enough europe has different view on "silencers" then we do.

Pertty cool how they pick and choose what they want to do from europe aint it.

 

[Gadsden2A]

We don't disagree, you're missing the point, and I don't know how. You keep talking about a shooting. What I said was-
People posting videos on YouTube of air guns with silencers will not lead to federal regulation of airguns.

If you disagree with that comment and have counterpoints, please post them. I haven't seen anything yet.

As for your Crosman 760 gun shooter, he could just as easily graduate to a centerfire rifle and act stupid. I don't see the correlation. Not to mention, the more powerful air rifles start at around $700. The person who has that kind of disposable income is probably smart enough to realize the gun will handle more like a firearm than a BB gun. But there are idiots across the board. They're all over YouTube. Idiots with machine guns. Idiots with shotguns. Idiots with Tannerite. Idiots with black powder guns. And idiots with airguns. For some reason it's the airguns that get under your skin. Also, you never answered the question, does it get you on your high horse that Hickok45 shoots watermelon with firearms?

 

[Gadsden2A]

[QUOTE="fpgt72, post: 11156280, member: ]

Pertty cool how they pick and choose what they want to do from europe aint it.[/QUOTE]

Who is 'They' and please give some examples of what they pick and choose from Europe.

There's no limit on FPE for airguns.

Knives are legal in the US. In my state Florida, even switchblades are allowed.

Silencers are allowed on firearms with a permit.

So what exactly do you mean by they pick and choose?

 

[Gadsden2A]

If you do your homework, you will see that the NRA has actually backed the majority of gun legislation since Sandy Hook. Do you know what that means? That means most of the laws passed since Sandy Hook have LOOSENED the restrictions on gun laws, NOT tightened them. Not to mention, we have a conservative majority in the Supreme Court, and they might even pick up another seat when RBG retires. Florida passed a law allowing teachers to carry guns. We're about to pass another law allowing paramedics to carry guns. The New York City case going to the Supreme Court will further strengthen gun rights. The Second Amendment is alive and well. Some people see a tree. Some people see the forest.

 

[fpgt72]

I wanted to add on the BP side of things.

It is a pain in the tush....this is why it is still regulated as it is.....sure we all know.

We don't disagree, you're missing the point, and I don't know how. You keep talking about a shooting. What I said was-
People posting videos on YouTube of air guns with silencers will not lead to federal regulation of airguns.

If you disagree with that comment and have counterpoints, please post them. I haven't seen anything yet.

As for your Crosman 760 gun shooter, he could just as easily graduate to a centerfire rifle and act stupid. I don't see the correlation. Not to mention, the more powerful air rifles start at around $700. The person who has that disposable income is probably smart enough to realize the gun will handle more like a firearm than a BB gun. But there are idiots across the board. They're all over YouTube. Idiots with machine guns. Idiots with shotguns. Idiots with Tannerite. Idiots with black powder guns. And idiots with airguns. For some reason it's the airguns that get under your skin. Also, you never answered the question, does it get you on your high horse that Hickok45 shoots watermelon with firearms?

What I am saying is it is a slippy slope, once they hit one thing.....the rest of the dominos will fall

 

[Hasaf]

My discovery is as loud as an unsuppressed, long barreled .22 LR.

TKO makes them for your Disco, they are not an NFA device (legal to put on air rifles, no Tax stamp or other paper work needed).

http://tko22.com/Section1.html

This is what makes me wonder about the legality of moderators like the one above.

The government's expert testified that the seized device could be used to muffle the sound of an ordinary firearm in various ways, including the holding of the device against the barrel of the firearm with one's hand so that the bullet would pass through the device;  but the witness admitted that this would be quite dangerous, and his own test was conducted only by threading an “adapter” onto both the barrel of an ordinary gun and the silencer to connect the two implements, because the silencer did not fit directly to the testing pistol.

The adapter was described as one of a collection taken from the witness' office in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms in the Department of the Treasury.   With the adapter, the sound of the weapon was significantly reduced.   The witness suggested a makeshift adapter could be assembled from hardware store materials, but did not say he had ever tried it or seen it done.

It appears the ATF machined an adapter. If the ATF is permitted to go so far as to hold that anything that can be modified to be,

any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

As much as I would like to have a moderator for my airgun, I am concerned.

 

[fpgt72]

[QUOTE="fpgt72, post: 11156280, member: ]

Pertty cool how they pick and choose what they want to do from europe aint it.

Who is 'They' and please give some examples of what they pick and choose from Europe.

There's no limit on FPE for airguns.

Knives are legal in the US. In my state Florida, even switchblades are allowed.

Silencers are allowed on firearms with a permit.

So what exactly do you mean by they pick and choose?[/QUOTE]

Right....at this specific moment....."they" being our law makers. All of these "freedoms" we currently hold are under attack....at times full frontal, the other times....just a kick here and a pick there.

You can look at Florida or my state of Missouri....then look to California, or NJ.....for swings in the other direction....and have you not seen it said, as California goes so does the country.

All I am saying is I see a time when this will be as hot a button as extended capacity "clips" (yes that word used on purpose)....only different is the air gun world does not have the horse power behind it like firearms do.

It is the same deal as with model aircraft. For 30 years the AMA had turned its back on "toy" model aircraft....to many in the AMA anything not powered by "gas" was a toy....if it was foam, it was a toy, and that entire section on the hobby was left out and not supported. The AMA was to model aircraft like the NRA is to "gunz".....however the AMA did not see "drones" as an issue to the hobby. It was not till after the barn was on fire and the horses out that they go....hay wait a sec...you mean that 1/4 P51 I spent years building, and decades working up to fly....now you want me to do what?

I see the air gun hobby as just like this.....and see is as standing aside from Black Powder for the sole reason as BP is a pain to work with.....you have to load it in your own cases....deal with fill, wads....or crisco to shoot the guns (yes I know but talking in generals here).....and at that you get a few dozen rounds off before the thing is so caked up you need to do some cleaning. And yes I know some BP subsitutes are a little cleaner.....but it is still a bit of a bother.

Now PCP is about as easy as it gets, as powerful as "real gunz", all you need to do is toss money at it.....no nothing.

I will leave with this....and hopefully change things around a bit so I don't put a spotlight on this guy....he has come to learn the power of these new "bb guns".

He is a guy with what I would call more money then brains.....we all know the type. And he got into air guns for the reason most powder shooters get into airguns....pests....his bird feeders are getting raided. So like most he starts down the common path. Walmart 1700fps spring gun that is the hardest thing in the world to shoot....and he can't hit the planet earth if pointed down. Then he goes to a Mrod......now this is easy.....only thing is he is zapping birds in his front yard....with a 25 Mrod (better barrels back then....you should know the history on those early guns).....and no thought to where the pellet is going after it zips through that starling....or whatever he is dispatching....I don't remember.

On the forum he is on (not an airgun forum) he gets hit with the full frontal attack....he is an idiot, this is not your red ryder....bla bla bla.....he sees the light and now is what anyone on the planet would call a responsible air gun owner....I would say he is a great person to have in our sport....a real asset.....and I disagree with this guy more then I agree with him....but a good guy.

What I am saying is just because thing are as they are now, means nothing, I hope I am wrong but I really thing it is going to get much more restrictive.

 

[jmorris]

The government's expert testified that the seized device could be used to muffle the sound of an ordinary firearm in various ways, including the holding of the device against the barrel of the firearm with one's hand so that the bullet would pass through the device;

If that’s the official test, you better form 1 all of your pillows...

 

[Gadsden2A]

This is what makes me wonder about the legality of moderators like the one above.


It appears the ATF machined an adapter. If the ATF is permitted to go so far as to hold that anything that can be modified to be,

As much as I would like to have a moderator for my airgun, I am concerned.

This website https://donnyfl.com has been selling them for years. Their inventory has expanded greatly and they appear to be thriving. If airgun moderators were not lawful , they would have been shut down a long time ago. You have to read the statute carefully. The key words are 'intended' and 'firearm'. If you understand the language of statutes, it makes perfect sense.

 

[JohnKSa]

Calling them moderators or saying that they are for airguns won't mean a thing from a legal perspective. It's not as if criminals never have any explanation for why what they are doing is legal. If it were possible to say some magic words and ward off arrest and prosecution, then no one with an illegal silencer would ever be arrested or prosecuted unless they were caught with it actually attached to a firearm. They could just say it was for an airgun and they would be let go.

Hopefully it's obvious why it will take more that just stating your intent to avoid trouble. I suppose it isn't obvious to some, and people like that, if they won't take advice, are likely to live lives that are far more difficult than they need be.

If you can prove in court that they are exclusively for use on airguns, then you will probably be declared not guilty when you are prosecuted.

Just keep in mind that possessing a device that looks and operates like a silencer without the proper paperwork is certainly going to cause you some legal problems if it comes to the attention of the authorities. You may be able to prove, in court, that your silencer is intended exclusively for use on airguns (it has been done at least once before), but I seriously doubt that the process of achieving that goal will be less expensive then just buying a silencer and getting all the right paperwork for it. And, of course, there's no guarantee you will be successful in your defense.

 

[Gadsden2A]

Calling them moderators or saying that they are for airguns won't mean a thing from a legal perspective. It's not as if criminals never have any explanation for why what they are doing is legal. If it were possible to say some magic words and ward off arrest and prosecution, then no one with an illegal silencer would ever be arrested or prosecuted unless they were caught with it actually attached to a firearm. They could just say it was for an airgun and they would be let go.

Hopefully it's obvious why it will take more that just stating your intent to avoid trouble. I suppose it isn't obvious to some, and people like that, if they won't take advice, are likely to live lives that are far more difficult than they need be.

If you can prove in court that they are exclusively for use on airguns, then you will probably be declared not guilty when you are prosecuted.

Just keep in mind that possessing a devices that looks and operates like a silencer without the proper paperwork is certainly going to cause you some legal problems if it comes to the attention of the authorities. You may be able to prove, in court, that your silencer is intended exclusively for use on airguns (it has been done at least once before), but I seriously doubt that the process of achieving that goal will be less expensive then just buying a silencer and getting all the right paperwork for it. And, of course, there's no guarantee you will be successful in your defense.

I read the whole case. They said intent is irrelevant. It's about 'intended design'. If you have a muffler for a Briggs & Stratton engine that you 'intend' on using as a silencer, that does not make it a silencer. In the same way, if you buy a moderator from a place like Donny FL who manufactures only air rifle moderators, even if you intended to use it as a silencer on a firearm would not make it a silencer until you actually put it on a firearm. It was designed for air rifles. I would think they engrave that on the moderator also. And I would think those federal agents are familiar with the case law regarding these. The guy who was acquitted was a really bad person. He was mailing chemicals through the mail, he was a convicted felon, and I believe he might have even had explosives. They did not find this guy out hunting in the woods. Yet he was still acquitted. I would think most federal game wardens are aware that air rifles are allowed to have moderators. I would carry the paperwork and the receipt on me, and like I said, I would bet they are engraved with something like
'For Airgun Use Only'.